Your Top 5 Heavyweights Ever?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

foreman suffered from heat exhaustion from that fight though. thats like saying that maxim wore out robinson. it may be true but other factors were involved.

The more I think about it the idea that the heat beat Robinson is bogus. Robinson was ahead fighting at an unsustainable pace. Saying the heat beat Robinson is like saying the heat beat a guy who led a marathon at the 25 mile marked by a mile and then collapsed and was beaten.

Was it a factor? Sure. The credit goes to the guy who took it into account and paced himself properly.

For once Robinson's vaunted ring IQ let him down.

i agree. but i believe that it was somewhat the same with foreman. i dont think that a pre-ali foreman would have at all fought the same way that he did that night.

powerpuncher wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

foreman suffered from heat exhaustion from that fight though. thats like saying that maxim wore out robinson. it may be true but other factors were involved.

The more I think about it the idea that the heat beat Robinson is bogus. Robinson was ahead fighting at an unsustainable pace. Saying the heat beat Robinson is like saying the heat beat a guy who led a marathon at the 25 mile marked by a mile and then collapsed and was beaten.

Was it a factor? Sure. The credit goes to the guy who took it into account and paced himself properly.

For once Robinson's vaunted ring IQ let him down.

i agree. but i believe that it was somewhat the same with foreman. i dont think that a pre-ali foreman would have at all fought the same way that he did that night.

If you are saying Ali psychologically permanently ruined Young George? I agree.

My personal fav's in no particular order:

Jack Dempsey: because his championship fights were legendary & exciting, and he was part of the golden era of boxing during the roaring 20's.

Joe Louis: was hell when he was well, just an incredible 2 fisted fighter with with devestating finishing power, possibly the best HW ever.

Rocky Marciano: Gotta love this guy, heart, perseverance, and determination won him the undisputed Heavyweight title, too bad he didn't have a few more championship fights, I would have liked to have seen more of him. Fights with Floyd Patterson and Sonny Liston would have been great to watch and would have defined him better.

Ali/Clay: there's a lot of things I liked and disliked about Ali, he did and said a lot of things as a young man i'm sure he later regretted (didn't we all?). One thing you can't say bad about Ali, is the muther-fucker knew how to fight, his wins over Sonny Liston (I thought the first fight was legit) and Joe Frazier, plus the one over George Foreman, puts him in a league by himself, nuff said.

Lennox Lewis: Give this dude some credit, a Canadian/Brit/Jamaican (take yer pick) who dominated American fighters and the Heavyweight division for the better part of 10 years, I put him in the top 5 HW's of alltime.

i love ya ring but yikes at LL

Birdofthad wrote:

i love ya ring but yikes at LL

Come on Bird, no love for Lennox? Even if you don't like him, you've gotta admit, the cat could bring it man..

Ring wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

i love ya ring but yikes at LL

Come on Bird, no love for Lennox? Even if you don't like him, you've gotta admit, the cat could bring it man..

yeah it's the taking it part that limits him in my kind.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ring wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

i love ya ring but yikes at LL

Come on Bird, no love for Lennox? Even if you don't like him, you've gotta admit, the cat could bring it man..

yeah it's the taking it part that limits him in my kind.

I used to hate Lewis at times because of his mouth, just saying, I overlook all the trash talk and bravado, and focus on what he was able to accomplish in the ring. He avenged the 2 losses and draw on his record and pretty much kicked the shit outta everyone he fought. You don't have to agree with me, but I believe Lewis was an elite Heavyweight, and great champion.

see i love Lennox and have been a HUGE FAN

but lets be real Hasim and McCall KO'd him and his defenses consisted of Golotas, Michael Grant, Tua, old Tyson, and Vitali

not exactly murderers row

i love Lennox but no way is he in my top 10 all time

Ring wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ring wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

i love ya ring but yikes at LL

Come on Bird, no love for Lennox? Even if you don't like him, you've gotta admit, the cat could bring it man..

yeah it's the taking it part that limits him in my kind.

I used to hate Lewis at times because of his mouth, just saying, I overlook all the trash talk and bravado, and focus on what he was able to accomplish in the ring. He avenged the 2 losses and draw on his record and pretty much kicked the shit outta everyone he fought. You don't have to agree with me, but I believe Lewis was an elite Heavyweight, and great champion.

I think he was a great champion in the sense that he fought everyone there was to fight and conducted himself honorably. But as for being a great fighter? I can't think of a single other fighter commonly labeled great who got KO'd in their prime by two different mediocrities.

The greats didn't have to avenge those kinds of losses. They never had them in the first place.

BTW, just because I can't think of them doesn't mean they aren't out there. I am always happy to be educated.

Even if the losses knock him out of the great category by your definition, but aside those fights, Lewis at his best was on par with that elite company. I think that is his point.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ring wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ring wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

i love ya ring but yikes at LL

Come on Bird, no love for Lennox? Even if you don't like him, you've gotta admit, the cat could bring it man..

yeah it's the taking it part that limits him in my kind.

I used to hate Lewis at times because of his mouth, just saying, I overlook all the trash talk and bravado, and focus on what he was able to accomplish in the ring. He avenged the 2 losses and draw on his record and pretty much kicked the shit outta everyone he fought. You don't have to agree with me, but I believe Lewis was an elite Heavyweight, and great champion.

I think he was a great champion in the sense that he fought everyone there was to fight and conducted himself honorably. But as for being a great fighter? I can't think of a single other fighter commonly labeled great who got KO'd in their prime by two different mediocrities.

The greats didn't have to avenge those kinds of losses. They never had them in the first place.

BTW, just because I can't think of them doesn't mean they aren't out there. I am always happy to be educated.

Wladimir? Depends on if you consider him great.

I do.

no wolf he doesnt although i dont exect you to know about the great heavies

When the MMA board is dead you can bet top dollar that Wolf is over here starting shit

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Even if the losses knock him out of the great category by your definition, but aside those fights, Lewis at his best was on par with that elite company. I think that is his point.

I don't think one can just dismiss prime fights and pretend they didn't happen. They provide meaningful information don't they? That that happened ONLY to Lewis (as near as I can figure) among great fighters demonstrates a vulnerability not usually found among the greats. I don't think imaginary head to head matchups tell you much as they are usually semi-informed guesses at best, but how could one reasonably pick Lewis over a hard punching, tough chinned great heavyweight with that proven vulnerability to two different mediocrities' punches?

Foreman, Louis, Jeffries, Marciano, Frazier, Liston, Dempsey and heck maybe even guys like Max Baer and Harry Wills. Aren't all those guys likely to land big shots if Rahman and McCall could?

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ring wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ring wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

i love ya ring but yikes at LL

Come on Bird, no love for Lennox? Even if you don't like him, you've gotta admit, the cat could bring it man..

yeah it's the taking it part that limits him in my kind.

I used to hate Lewis at times because of his mouth, just saying, I overlook all the trash talk and bravado, and focus on what he was able to accomplish in the ring. He avenged the 2 losses and draw on his record and pretty much kicked the shit outta everyone he fought. You don't have to agree with me, but I believe Lewis was an elite Heavyweight, and great champion.

I think he was a great champion in the sense that he fought everyone there was to fight and conducted himself honorably. But as for being a great fighter? I can't think of a single other fighter commonly labeled great who got KO'd in their prime by two different mediocrities.

The greats didn't have to avenge those kinds of losses. They never had them in the first place.

BTW, just because I can't think of them doesn't mean they aren't out there. I am always happy to be educated.

Wladimir? Depends on if you consider him great.

The useful comparison and my answer is not even close. But ask me again three years from now.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Even if the losses knock him out of the great category by your definition, but aside those fights, Lewis at his best was on par with that elite company. I think that is his point.

I don't think one can just dismiss prime fights and pretend they didn't happen. They provide meaningful information don't they? That that happened ONLY to Lewis (as near as I can figure) among great fighters demonstrates a vulnerability not usually found among the greats. I don't think imaginary head to head matchups tell you much as they are usually semi-informed guesses at best, but how could one reasonably pick Lewis over a hard punching, tough chinned great heavyweight with that proven vulnerability to two different mediocrities' punches?

Foreman, Louis, Jeffries, Marciano, Frazier, Liston, Dempsey and heck maybe even guys like Max Baer and Harry Wills. Aren't all those guys likely to land big shots if Rahman and McCall could?

Baer might kill Lewis. I know Foreman would punch him into a coma. I would be scared to see what Marciano would do to him.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ring wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ring wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

i love ya ring but yikes at LL

Come on Bird, no love for Lennox? Even if you don't like him, you've gotta admit, the cat could bring it man..

yeah it's the taking it part that limits him in my kind.

I used to hate Lewis at times because of his mouth, just saying, I overlook all the trash talk and bravado, and focus on what he was able to accomplish in the ring. He avenged the 2 losses and draw on his record and pretty much kicked the shit outta everyone he fought. You don't have to agree with me, but I believe Lewis was an elite Heavyweight, and great champion.

I think he was a great champion in the sense that he fought everyone there was to fight and conducted himself honorably. But as for being a great fighter? I can't think of a single other fighter commonly labeled great who got KO'd in their prime by two different mediocrities.

The greats didn't have to avenge those kinds of losses. They never had them in the first place.

BTW, just because I can't think of them doesn't mean they aren't out there. I am always happy to be educated.

Wladimir? Depends on if you consider him great.

The useful comparison and my answer is not even close. But ask me again three years from now.

I think the correct answer for Wlad would be that he has had a great carrer but is not one of the Great HW's. Right? Is that good?

Lewis would shove his jab down Baer's fucking throat come on.

Who wins Holmes vs Lewis?

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Even if the losses knock him out of the great category by your definition, but aside those fights, Lewis at his best was on par with that elite company. I think that is his point.

I don't think one can just dismiss prime fights and pretend they didn't happen. They provide meaningful information don't they? That that happened ONLY to Lewis (as near as I can figure) among great fighters demonstrates a vulnerability not usually found among the greats. I don't think imaginary head to head matchups tell you much as they are usually semi-informed guesses at best, but how could one reasonably pick Lewis over a hard punching, tough chinned great heavyweight with that proven vulnerability to two different mediocrities' punches?

Foreman, Louis, Jeffries, Marciano, Frazier, Liston, Dempsey and heck maybe even guys like Max Baer and Harry Wills. Aren't all those guys likely to land big shots if Rahman and McCall could?

Baer might kill Lewis. I know Foreman would punch him into a coma. I would be scared to see what Marciano would do to him.

Lennox and Baer would have been very interesting. It's not like Max was invulnerable either. I can see the other side of the Marciano argument. We've seen Rocky literally destroy tall men (Carmine Vingo) we never saw him give up 50 pounds and a dozen inches in reach together. Could Lennox have cut him to pieces? Maybe. The question I think becomes could Lennox have stayed in the fight long enough to do so? I think another factor is which norms are being applied? Those of today where fights get stoppped fast on cuts or those of 1950 where they really tried to let fights go to a finish.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Lewis would shove his jab down Baer's fucking throat come on.

LOL Baer would hit Lewis ONCE and Lewis would wake up with a neck brace on and on top of a stretcher.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Lewis would shove his jab down Baer's fucking throat come on.

What makes you say that? Baer had over an 80 inch reach don't forget. And the question isn't could Lennox hit Max, he could. The question is, in my mind, what happens when Max hits Lennox?

I'm of the general opinion that today's fighters are just a better quality of athlete than yesteryears. I think this is true in all sports. Baer would get wrecked.

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

Who wins Holmes vs Lewis?

I think Holmes does. The other limitation I think Lennox had was he really lumbered. Whe the fight pace was increased he had trouble staying balanced and coordinated. Watch the second Holyfield fight as an example. I think both Ali and Holmes beat Lennox by simply making him fight too fast.

But again, these are wild-ass-guesses, nothing more.