Your Top 5 Heavyweights Ever?

Quote :

OK, I do think they should have more than a total of 23 fights though right? I mean come on this sport has been going on long enough for that. BTW how many fights does Anderson have? How often do UFC guys fight? It just seems odd to me being a boxing guy. Also in boxing the guys work their way up to that elite level that why they do have all those fights. They prove themselves first. I dont see that happening too much in UFC yet. I do think eventually if this sport gets as big as boxing it will happen though dont you?

MMA now and MMA ten years ago are very different sports. MMA in ten years will be a very different sport. MMA and boxing are different. The number of fights needed to compete at this high level isn't the same. And really, it isn't needed in boxing either. The best could be fighting the best earlier in their careers with no harm(in fact a significant benefit) to the sport of boxing. That's another debate though.

Further, what does "MMA" stand for? BJ Penn had already proved himself in BJJ. MMA has the luxury of taking athletes who have already proven themselves at the highest level in most other combat sports. When BJ Penn started, all you needed to compete in MMA was credentials in core discipline. It's not quite like that anymore. Especially in the developed divisions. The UFC's HW division was exceptionally thin, which is why someone like Lesnar was able to win the title. But had the best in the sport actually been in the UFC at the time, Lesnar would have never even sniffed the belt.

Also, when you look at a boxer with 40-50 fights, how many of those are against real fighters and how many are glorified sparring sessions with bums? MMA guys with 14-20 fights usually have more ranked fights at the highest level than the modern boxer.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Let me try it this way. If you took the toip say 20 heavies and put them in a gigantic round robin with 15 round fights and each guy fought his absolute best every time who would have the best records when it was done?

Ali, Foreman, Louis, Holmes and Marciano.

Now if you did that same thing but they fought fights to a finish? I think it changes quite a bit.

Louis, Foreman, Jeffries, Marciano and Johnson.

we have the same top 5. nice!

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Jack Johnson always ends up on these lists but how would he really stack up against today's HW monsters the Klit bros and the other legends on this list?

Give Johnson all the tools available today and he would decimate Wladimir.

soonermark890 wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Show me a Tyson fight he came back to win? Anyone? If he couldn't steamroll you he'd fold. BJ Penn, Vitor Belfort, Mike Tyson - FRONT RUNNERS. Except the two mma guys actually have legit wins.

LOL yeah BJ is a head case. BTW Wolf why is it that BJ only has a record of 15-7-1 and he is considered the greatest ever in his weight class? That is a serious question BTW.

BJ Penn only has 3 losses at Lightweight and 1 of them is disputable.

I always thought Rocky Marciano was overated because he didn't beat any good really big men but everyone here rates him in the top 5 so I must have been wrong about him.

How do you guys think Lennox Lewis would've went in fights against fighters before Ali's era?

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

I always thought Rocky Marciano was overated because he didn't beat any good really big men but everyone here rates him in the top 5 so I must have been wrong about him.

How do you guys think Lennox Lewis would've went in fights against fighters before Ali's era?

Watch Marcinao's fight with Walcott and you'll understand why we rate him so highly.

soonermark890 wrote:

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

What's the harm in me asking? I'm just trying to become more educated in the history of boxing.

No harm its just like when I appear on the MMA forum and begin to ask questions that you guys have answerd a bunch of times. Some guys dont like to discuss it over and over and some guys like me do.

I'm like you. I'll always try to help out if someone really wants to know.

1. Ali
2. Foreman
3. Frazier
4. Rocky
5. Joe Louis

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

I always thought Rocky Marciano was overated because he didn't beat any good really big men but everyone here rates him in the top 5 so I must have been wrong about him.

How do you guys think Lennox Lewis would've went in fights against fighters before Ali's era?

rocky was kind of a blood and guts fighter. he may not have been the most skillful fighter but he hit very hard, had an awesome chin, and had endless endurance. he was dangerous throughout the whole fight. he was small but i think that he would be too much for most fighters. he just never stopped coming at you and you would probably get knocked out unless you could really stay away. just watch the walcott fight. walcott was easily winning but rocky KO'd him in the 13th from one huge right hand. also against ezzard charles, he was about to lose because his nose was torn up and the ref was going to stop the fight so rocky knocked him out the next round. rocky finished fights when he needed to.

i think that lewis would beat most fighters before the 70's (ali's era). he wouldnt beat everybody but i think that he would or at least have a good chance to be THE MAN at HW really in any era before the 70's. lewis just fights inconsistently. if he could lose to fighters like mccall and rahman, he could lose to a lot of fighters. nonetheless, i believe that lewis would be pretty dominant in any era.

[quote="powerpuncher"]

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Let me try it this way. If you took the toip say 20 heavies and put them in a gigantic round robin with 15 round fights and each guy fought his absolute best every time who would have the best records when it was done?

Ali, Foreman, Louis, Holmes and Marciano.

Now if you did that same thing but they fought fights to a finish? I think it changes quite a bit.

Louis, Foreman, Jeffries, Marciano and Johnson.

we have the same top 5. nice![/quote]

Yeah except I think this is the wrong way to rate fighters

freakzilla316ftw wrote:

I always thought Rocky Marciano was overated because he didn't beat any good really big men but everyone here rates him in the top 5 so I must have been wrong about him.

How do you guys think Lennox Lewis would've went in fights against fighters before Ali's era?

I think Lennox Lewsi was one punched by two different journeymen in McCall and Rahman. So I don't see any reason to believe he can stand up to all-time powerful punchers with good chins.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Also, when you look at a boxer with 40-50 fights, how many of those are against real fighters and how many are glorified sparring sessions with bums? MMA guys with 14-20 fights usually have more ranked fights at the highest level than the modern boxer.

I would debate that highly. Lets take Manny Pac for example he has over 20 wins over top ranked guys. I would say most great fighters in boxing have fought and beat more ranked guys than MMA guys have had fights right now. I do think that IF MMA ever gets enough athletes that you will begin to see their record look a lot like boxers.

Joe Louis
Ali
Jack Johnson
Foreman
Liston

Louis has the elft and right and knowledge to KO anyone
Ali the smarts and slickness to beat anyone
Johnson can tie up anyone and KO them
Foreman is a beast from another planet
and Liston is the only man to stop the beast from another planet dead in his tracks.....with a jab

all 5 are in my top 10 heavies all time as well but if were playing the who beatas who head to head these are my 5

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Let me try it this way. If you took the toip say 20 heavies and put them in a gigantic round robin with 15 round fights and each guy fought his absolute best every time who would have the best records when it was done?

Ali, Foreman, Louis, Holmes and Marciano.

Now if you did that same thing but they fought fights to a finish? I think it changes quite a bit.

Louis, Foreman, Jeffries, Marciano and Johnson.

Marble, you've just made this more interesting. Not that Freakzilla didn't put up a good post. He did. We've just been over this about 20 times. LOL: However, the "Fight to the finish question" makes this a whole different ball game, or does it? I don't think so. This is one of those rare times I have to disagree with you. Why is Ali taken out when we get to this 2nd category? Only two men (Terrell and Chuvalo) went the distance with Ali during his first reign as champ and he actually carried Terrell. An old Ali took bombs from Earnie Shavers in the 15th round only to come back and stun Earnie in the last stanza of the round. Putting Holmes in the top 5 Heavyweights in either category is something I can't agree with. He got caught with too many solid shot for me to believe he stood any chance against Joe Frazier, let alone Marciano and Louis. Also, I can't understand how we could know whether Louis does well in a fight to the finish as he pretty much knocked everyone the hell out. LOL: Same with Rocky, though I'd put Rocky in a fight to the death against any HW. Foreman? If we're to be honest, he is easily one of the top 5 HWs, but George in a fight to the finish? I wouldn't say stamina was one of his better qualities (See Zaire). Just my opinion. Your 2nd category was very interesting and opens the door for some really fun and interesting debates. Thanks.

Why does a fight to the finish change things?

Because it puts a premium on stamina, power and the ability to take punishment. I think in that context Ali's ability to move changes dramtically if he knows he might be fighting 20-30 rounds.

Louis' ability in fights to the finish is as you said, he knocked everyone out...kinda the point .

Only one guy ever made Foreman's stamina an issue. So if he goes 19-1 in my round robin that's pretty good

marble jimmy young did also.

dmar5143 wrote:

marble jimmy young did also.

Come on! All Young did was introduce George to God!

[quote="marbleheadmaui"]

powerpuncher wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Let me try it this way. If you took the toip say 20 heavies and put them in a gigantic round robin with 15 round fights and each guy fought his absolute best every time who would have the best records when it was done?

Ali, Foreman, Louis, Holmes and Marciano.

Now if you did that same thing but they fought fights to a finish? I think it changes quite a bit.

Louis, Foreman, Jeffries, Marciano and Johnson.

we have the same top 5. nice![/quote]

Yeah except I think this is the wrong way to rate fighters

dont steal my thunder

marbleheadmaui wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:

marble jimmy young did also.

Come on! All Young did was introduce George to God!

Marble, you know Young beat Foreman. He wore him out as well and floored him in the closing stanza. dmar is right.

foreman suffered from heat exhaustion from that fight though. thats like saying that maxim wore out robinson. it may be true but other factors were involved.

powerpuncher wrote:

foreman suffered from heat exhaustion from that fight though. thats like saying that maxim wore out robinson. it may be true but other factors were involved.

Young was under the same heat. Also, Young beat him by employing boxing tactics, fighting off the ropes and throwing combo after combo. After the fight, George claimed everything from heat exhaustion to saying that he won 9 rounds of the 12 rounder. Bottom line. He got his ass kicked that night. Look at the fight on You Tube. He's not suffering from anything but a boxing lesson.

4445Frank wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

foreman suffered from heat exhaustion from that fight though. thats like saying that maxim wore out robinson. it may be true but other factors were involved.

Young was under the same heat. Also, Young beat him by employing boxing tactics, fighting off the ropes and throwing combo after combo. After the fight, George claimed everything from heat exhaustion to saying that he won 9 rounds of the 12 rounder. Bottom line. He got his ass kicked that night. Look at the fight on You Tube. He's not suffering from anything but a boxing lesson.

maxim was under the same heat as robinson too. but george did have heat exhaustion and almost died after the fight so im sure that that was a factor of him losing and doing so bad.

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:

marble jimmy young did also.

Come on! All Young did was introduce George to God!

Marble, you know Young beat Foreman. He wore him out as well and floored him in the closing stanza. dmar is right.

Well OF COURSE he's right. he's freaking Dmar!

powerpuncher wrote:

foreman suffered from heat exhaustion from that fight though. thats like saying that maxim wore out robinson. it may be true but other factors were involved.

The more I think about it the idea that the heat beat Robinson is bogus. Robinson was ahead fighting at an unsustainable pace. Saying the heat beat Robinson is like saying the heat beat a guy who led a marathon at the 25 mile marked by a mile and then collapsed and was beaten.

Was it a factor? Sure. The credit goes to the guy who took it into account and paced himself properly.

For once Robinson's vaunted ring IQ let him down.