Nick Diaz vs. Marius Zaromskis at Strikeforce: Miami

I just pee'd a little after reading that, Frank is washed up bro, he beat Baroni oh my, Amir just schooled Baroni, he also lost to a prop fighter who was just finished by a high C borderline B level fighter. Mach is certainly a better fighter than any of those 5 guys, and High is pretty good too. The overall point though, is that Nick's striking looked soo good against weak ass strikers, but when facing more talented strikers his style won't be as effective, thatis what was being discussed, talent level of striking, not style.. I'm moving on though, that Frank comment was just too funny.

MMAth and deceptive, intelletually dishonest analysis at its worst here men. Is this even you LA, because I expect better of you typically.


Cung Le is an amazing strker. Denying that is complete tenth-dan level bumblefuckery. So don't even try it. Give him even Mike Swicks or Thiago Alves ground game, an average one, and he would be very hard to beat by any non UFC opponent and many many UFC ones. Frank stood with him. Yes, yes he got finished after he got clipped in the closing moments of a fight he otherwise dominated entirely. Saying "finished by a b level fighter" completely ignore the reality of what happened there. He was humilating Smith the entire fight.

Frank however held his own and looked pretty competative with a guy who is an elite striker by trade. It is rare when someone can hold their own with a k-1 level striker with Machida like elusiveness in K1, much less MMA. Frank was much slower, had a different posture and a different attitude about him entirely when he fought Diaz. Those pitter patter body shots buckled him badly. He had no gas. He had broken ribs and other injuries on top of it. Premptive strike; Do me a favor, and save the "everyone fights hurt" crap. Everyone in the NFL plays hurt, but injuries still can legitimately be blamed for declines in performance.

Broken ribs are debilitating utterly at times. You cannot seriously expect me to let you argue that broken fucking ribs didn't have a serious impact on that fight and his performance? Besides, Frank was an elite striker his whole career, and left before he took a lot of damage. Showed no signs of slowing significantly or being shot in any of his fights before that. In which case, the crux of your argument of him being shot then remains the Diaz fight, again, a fight where he had broken ribs. Ask page about rib injuries bro.

And cut the nonsensical jibberjabber to while your at it my friend.

(i still love you LA, even if you sometimes require a scolding)

Ugh, are u fucking serious coming back with this ridiculous crap? Lets type of whole bunch of shit, to at least try and retain some dignity, right? Cung is an amazing show striker, but we're talking MMA Fighters here bro, he hasn't fought a legit opponent yet, and anyway u want to spin it was just finished by a high C borderline B level fighter, that's reality, Smith isn't even good. Cung has nothing outside of his array of kicks, he has weak power and nothing to speak of in regards to a well-rounded game. Frank looked competitive with that fighter, congratulations on noticing that. Nick schools him 10 out of 10 times, move along with this bullshit and save some face. Only one spitting nonsense here is you homie.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Shamrock would destroy anyone in this discussion period without broken ribs. Dude had no business fighting at all. The Sham that killed Baroni and battled Le would run Nick Diaz. Not even on the same level.

That said, regardless of the talent of Nick's last five opponents, the talent of all Marius opponents leaves much to be desired.

Come on Wolf, even I had to roll my eyes at this. Frank last legit win was in 1999 against Tito, where he was getting beat.
Phil is the definition of a journeyman and even he was taking the fight to Frank before he gassed. Frank pulled the wool over our eyes and made us actually believe he was still an elite fighter. In actuality he is as over the hill as his brother.

oggy420 wrote:

nick diaz beats everyone from the GP.

He would have a very hard time against André Galvão and of course Marius.

I don't need to see Cung fight a good MMA fighter to know he has super elite striking skills. Just as if I wouldn't need to see Remi the fucking flying gentleman Bonjasky fight any "elite MMA striker" before I could declare him a legit striker. Jake Shields and Damian Maia suck on their feet, so then, if someone hangs with them in a ground only MMA fight we can't take anything away about their ground skills LA? Is that what your saying? I need you to read your own opinion again, without being high or drunk this time.

Again, referencing the Smith fight is dishonest and nonsensical in how you're doing it, Smith was hammered the entire time, and humiliated. Supposed good strikers by MMA standards like Robbie Lawler were fairly evenly matched with Scott Smith. Cung is older, and gassed due to a lay off, otherwise he totally clowned Smith. "finished by a b level fighter" Nigga please. Knock it off LA. This is below you.

I don't give a rats ass if Cung Le was Frank Shamrocks first MMA fight, hanging with him in a striking only match validates his striking, period. Nevermind the fact Frank was known for being a great striker anyway back in the day.

Wolf acting like a fucking moron as usual. Really, Frank Shamrock? LOL. Using this Cung Le is a superior striker bullshit isn't going to be bought by this board. That is a troll post and nothing more. Take that to the ESPN board and see if anyone bites.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

I don't need to see Cung fight a good MMA fighter to know he has super elite striking skills. Just as if I wouldn't need to see Remi the fucking flying gentleman Bonjasky fight any "elite MMA striker" before I could declare him a legit striker. Jake Shields and Damian Maia suck on their feet, so then, if someone hangs with them in a ground only MMA fight we can't take anything away about their ground skills LA? Is that what your saying? I need you to read your own opinion again, without being high or drunk this time.

Again, referencing the Smith fight is dishonest and nonsensical in how you're doing it, Smith was hammered the entire time, and humiliated. Supposed good strikers by MMA standards like Robbie Lawler were fairly evenly matched with Scott Smith. Cung is older, and gassed due to a lay off, otherwise he totally clowned Smith. "finished by a b level fighter" Nigga please. Knock it off LA. This is below you.

I don't give a rats ass if Cung Le was Frank Shamrocks first MMA fight, hanging with him in a striking only match validates his striking, period. Nevermind the fact Frank was known for being a great striker anyway back in the day.

Cung Le has an incredible legacy in San Shou. However, if you watch his San Shou fights his dominance was due to his takedowns, not his striking. Yes, he was able to dominate the Shonie Carters of the world in standup, but for the most part the strongest part of his game was his ability to execute beautiful takedowns.

nick diaz's biggest strenght is his jiu jitsu. Im not saying it's even close to the level of galvao's but it's good enough to avoid getting subbed and then he would definitley out box galvao imo.

Classic Wolfy reaching, trying desperately to manufactor a counter argument, just ignore him at this point.

I dont know what happen to this thread with Le and Noons talk ..

point is nick wins this fight.. only way he loses is if he is an idiot.. which I suppose is possible.

GolbeZ wrote:

I dont know what happen to this thread with Le and Noons talk ..

point is nick wins this fight.. only way he loses is if he is an idiot.. which I suppose is possible.

Nick is an idiot. Remember the whole not showing up for drug tests and screwing Hieron? or throwing a shoe at Sanchez? Or fighting Riggs again at the hospital after losing to him?

Farmer1906 wrote:

GolbeZ wrote:

I dont know what happen to this thread with Le and Noons talk ..

point is nick wins this fight.. only way he loses is if he is an idiot.. which I suppose is possible.

Nick is an idiot. Remember the whole not showing up for drug tests and screwing Hieron? or throwing a shoe at Sanchez? Or fighting Riggs again at the hospital after losing to him?

which is why I said I suppose its possible.

Some seriously embarrassing stuff from some members here. Denying Cung Le is one of the better strikers in MMA is pretty outlandish. I am fucking shocked at this thread honestly.

Frank Shamrock is one of the best MMA fighters of all time. I fail to see how losing a fight where he had broken ribs means he isn't good now. He looked good in all his other recent fights. I know he didn't fight world beaters, but neither did a lot of fighters who, in fighting jabronis, establish a very high level skill set. The crux of the "he sucks now" argument then becomes a fight where he had broken ribs. This is like Nog-Mir in a lot of ways. Not saying he is his former self, but even a semi washed up Frank Shamrock is still a better striker than anyone else mentioned anywhere near this thread besides Le of course.


This is also very telling - Ninja said "we were all tricked by frank" meaning he was tricked by frank, which means he "saw the light" likely in the Diaz fight, a fight where he was a cripple thanks to his injuries.
Anyway, beyond all that, the eye test should tell you the Shamrock that fought Diaz was a shell of the one who fought Le or Baroni.

Is this Le bias due posters here being prisoners of the moment and the collapse during the Smith fight, or is it something worse?

Ok, had Shamrock held his own with Melvin Manhoef like he did with Le, would that also be meaningless to Shamrocks striking skills since Manhoef has no ground game LA? (save ducking the argument by saying it doesn't apply since they aren't the same type of striker and humor me k)

LA's logic here is really alien to me. From the best I can understand it LA, you're saying the Texas Rangers who usually have no pitching but also typically have one of the best offensive teams in the Majors really don't have a good offense since they have no pitching, and being able to shut their offense down doesn't reflect on your own pitching staff since the team actually isn't well rounded. Ya I donno man.

You know what, fuck this convo, lets talk where you're getting the shit you're smoking.


These will always be real world facts -

1. Cung Le is one of the best strikers in MMA.
2. Hanging with someone who is one of the best in their crafts means you indeed are also high level in the craft.
3. You cannot judge a fighter based on a fight with broken ribs, just can't do it.
4. Relying too much on strength of schedule arguments, MMA math, black and white Ws and Ls as opposed to actual analysis of demonstrated martial arts skill is sherdogian nincompoopery.
5. Nick Diaz will submit this dude instantly anyway rendering this discussion and all our efforts wasted...
6. Or he will skip the fight, fail a piss test, or do some other similar stupid self destructive Norcal latino-who-thinks-he-is-a-wigger-white-trash action to otherwise derail his career, rendering all our efforts here wasted.
7. Mikeys girlfriend works at Mcdonalds and is often seen giving rides home to black guys who work the line and the fry machine after the store closes, but typically spends three hours doing it, making up excuses about wanting to smoke blunts and hang out, which he accepts at face value, after kissing her on the mouth, while noticing the strange taste, but thinking nothing of it.

alright if Diaz is such an idiot who wants to put there AV on the line here. I really believe Diaz ends this fight within 2 rounds.

oggy420 wrote:

alright if Diaz is such an idiot who wants to put there AV on the line here. I really believe Diaz ends this fight within 2 rounds.

I really believe Diaz is about as fucking dumb as they come, but I never said he couldn't fight. I wouldn't take the bet.

exactly

Should be noted that the only recent losses on Marius's record are to che Mills who besides from being not highly rated, is also a much taller fighter then Marius.

Nick is also a much taller fighter.

But back to my original point, wether it looks like pitter pat or not, bottom line is he hurts people with his striking.

Well you hit someone like 800 times a la the scott smith fight it's gonna eventually do damage. My only point in this post was that Zaromskis has better stand up than Diaz, is more athletically gifted, and more explosive. Diaz will, however, win this fight if he takes zaromskis to the ground and is able to keep him there. My only question is, will he try to take him down or is he gonna try to stand with Zaromskis. If he decides to stand, there is a high chance that Zaromskis will win this fight. Diaz is a good fighter, but he has a tendency of fighting standing when he should utilize his strengths. What I mean by that is he knows that his best chance at beating people is to take them to the ground and submit them. Instead, he likes to fight where ever the other guy wants to fight. As someone else mentioned above, Diaz's last 5 fights have been against guys that aren't explosive stand up fighters.

If I had an avatar, I would bet it that Zaromskis wins this fight.

I don't know either fighter's reaches, and that is tremendously important. Someone do my homework for me.

Nick is about 3 inches taller and i know he has a pretty long reach, not sure about Marius. And let's not act like Nick is some scrub fighter because with for a guy who throws "pitter patter" punches more than half his wins are by tko. The smart money is to take it to the ground where he has the obvious advantage but i wouldn't be surprised to see Nick wear him down on the feet, box him up and then finsih him on the ground.

Re: shamrock and Le

Shamrock destroyed Baroni in that fight, and it had nothing to do with Phil tiring. If anything Shamrock was tiring and finally said fuck it and took the fight to the ground and choked Baroni out. Note that while Baroni never put togethor a long winning streak, he wasn't a guy who was KO'd often. After the Shamrock fight, he became very prone to the KO, and was getting rocked often. Shamrock took alot out of him in that fight.

Shamrock Le was a great fight that Shamrock was still competitive in when his arm broke.

Le was owning Smith in that fight, and the reason he lost was not due to his lack of striking ability, but instead his lack of conditioning, which was the first time in his career that that was ever a concern. Smith in no way proved himself a better striker in that fight.

capt organic plus 3.

The use of Baroni to support an argument is just comical

Let it end already, u two, are the only two delusional people who think either Cung or Shamrock are good fighters.

Neither of these guys is even in the Top 40 MWs

You're twisting the argument again. This was specifically about striking skills in relation to Diaz's opponents and Maruis. I still believe the Shamrock who fought between 06 and 08 would contend with a large portion of the MW division in the UFC. His hand speed hadn't slowed, his chin wasn't a question, and his ground game is renowned. There isn't an argument that is convincing otherwise besides inactivity and speculation.

Do I believe in 2010 Cung le and Frank Shamrock can contend with the best in the world in a complete MMA fight? Doubtful given father time. Even if Shamrock was a top 20 talent then, which I believe he was, I still find it hard to see him being one going forward given the age process.

But good job and not doing well in the discussion at hand, and changing the debate to "are they good fighters". Like changing "do the Rangers have a good offense" to "are the rangers a world series contender".

And before Zaromskis beat the fading Mach, Jason Who and Who Be Myon?, what was he ranked I wonder? Shamrock and Le's resumes are tenfold over anything on Marius' or any of the guys he has faced, and are ten times the striker Diaz or Zaromskis are when healthy.

Cung Le fights Cage Rage level fighters in Strikeforce and he is a joke, Zaromskis fights Cage Rage level fighters in Cage Rage and he is the next Shogun.