Clear thinking Muslims on the Mosque

LTFG, dude, how did u not know about the CIA Osama connection?

Also, u keep sayin the $$$ is from unsavory folk back in Iran Saudi etc. What makes these people unsavory? U r at once saying u don't know where it's from, but then saying it's from unsavory muslims.

As far as the guy making a shit load of $$$ to the point where he can lay $5 mil in cash down to buy a condo. that sort of shit tends to happen in NYC.

And the end all be all here is this, if this dude has connections to terrorists, don't u think the CIA and FBI would be all over it. My guess is they know where the $$$ is from, and I'd think they'd be in bloomberg's ear if this dude were shady.

Can we all agree LTFG seems a lot more worthwhile to talk to than he actually is and move on with our lives?

GDPofDRC wrote:

CIA funded, with several hundreds of millions of US dollars, Bin Laden and the group he was with, Mujahideen, around 1980. Birthed militant Al Queda as a result. They had the resources and training to carry out terrorist acts initially made possible by actions of the US. Bin Laden and Al Queda would not exist today, probably, if not for the US helping them not be annihilated by the USSR. But that's all common knowledge in the know.


On the third... Show me. If you can show me where we have spilled more Muslim blood than they have non-Muslim, I'll concede that point. Remember that statement was made shortly after the attacks of 9-11.
The fact you even ask this shows how blind and deaf you are to any fact that doesn't align with your views. But I'll feed you. Gulf War 1, civilian casualties, Iraq = Civilians Murdered>100,000, more civilians murdered on the first night of air raids than Americans murdered on September 11th, 2001.

Damn, a week off and drop in to see what's going on and see that people went balls out on me. I don't know whether to be hurt that people are getting personal, sad that people have a hard time reading and understanding basic English or happy that people are engaging. I hate answering stuff a week later, but I can't leave criticism unanswered either...

GDP, you said it right there. The CIA funded a group that Bin Laden was a part of, nothing more. A poor decision on the part of our government 20 years earlier to be sure, but that's really all and nothing new. Is there evidence that we funded him and Al Queda directly after he left the group? Did we fund and train him and Al Queda leading up to the attacks? Is there any real evidence to support the thought of us REALLY creating Osama bin Laden that I'm unaware of? Are we to take from the fact that we were funding the group that we are responsible for him? So, if not for our involvement with the group that he was a part of, he would have never become the terrorist he is today because his sanity was somehow altered as a result of our involvement and he would have never sought other funds (Not that he needed help since he was loaded) if we weren't there? Yep, we created him based on this. No big reach there at all. By this assessment we can also assert that the guy that took hostages yesterday at Discovery HQ would have never done it if not for reading An Inconvenient Truth, right? Someone's always to blame for others actions in this world... Amazing

I'll address your second point in my response to Wolf as I see he appears to have something to say on the subject as well...

This should be good.



(not really, expect a bunch of hot air as he goes down with his ship instead of fixing what is wrong with his line of thought)

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Quote :

On the third... Show me. If you can show me where we have spilled more Muslim blood than they have non-Muslim, I'll concede that point. Remember that statement was made shortly after the attacks of 9-11.

A quick google found this article. I don't know anything of the author or much about this source website, but this article seems like a fantastic starting point for LTFG's reform.

My reform?... Okay, I'll play along. If you go back and reread my posts I think you'll see a key point. Rauf's comment was made right after the attacks of 9-11. So, Afghanistan and this Iraq war can't be included (Though if they were I'd have to concede). Now let's be realistic about this... You cannot count some proposed number from sanctions. It's not up to us to feed and care for the world. We offer at the kindness of our liberal bleeding hearts and to political benefit, our help if third world countries are struggling... And if you can't toe the line, then we cut you off at the knees. Adding that "number" is ridiculous. So this leaves us with a number from the first Iraq war (Casualties due to a war occurring on their soil is reaching as well, IMO) and a plane that was mistakenly shot down (Or was it?). If you add both of those numbers, we're close. Like I said, I'd concede if it was proven... But an accident, wartime casualties and a guess of deaths supposedly caused by (Mostly outdated) sanctions mean little to me. No way I'm saying that it's a fact that the US had shed more innocent blood.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

This should be entertaining.

Fixed it for ya, Wolfmeister...

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Quote :

On the third... Show me. If you can show me where we have spilled more Muslim blood than they have non-Muslim, I'll concede that point. Remember that statement was made shortly after the attacks of 9-11.
The fact you even ask this shows how blind and deaf you are to any fact that doesn't align with your views.

Agreed. LTFG is the oldest here yet the least qualified to talk on this issue. It's indefensible. He isn't some kid. He has all the resources. He just chooses to avoid anything outside his comfort zone.

Least qualified? You mean because we view things in a different way? You mean because you like to think that our government is the most evil entity on the planet and you can with a clear conscience assert anything that the world's woes are our government's fault in some way? I don't think our government is innocent by any means... But I also don't try to attach the world's problems to our government or think that the government as a whole is an evil empire.

Thomasdrrn09 wrote:

https://ninjasplace.forumotion.net/off-topic-f4/likestofightguy-t8125.htm

Thomas, if you have a question or comment, please share.

You have yet to give me a reason why the mosque shouldn't be built.

Quote :

My reform?... Okay, I'll play along. If you go back and reread my posts I think you'll see a key point. Rauf's comment was made right after the attacks of 9-11. So, Afghanistan and this Iraq war can't be included (Though if they were I'd have to concede). Now let's be realistic about this... You cannot count some proposed number from sanctions. It's not up to us to feed and care for the world. We offer at the kindness of our liberal bleeding hearts and to political benefit, our help if third world countries are struggling... And if you can't toe the line, then we cut you off at the knees. Adding that "number" is ridiculous. So this leaves us with a number from the first Iraq war (Casualties due to a war occurring on their soil is reaching as well, IMO) and a plane that was mistakenly shot down (Or was it?). If you add both of those numbers, we're close. Like I said, I'd concede if it was proven... But an accident, wartime casualties and a guess of deaths supposedly caused by (Mostly outdated) sanctions mean little to me. No way I'm saying that it's a fact that the US had shed more innocent blood.

LTFG just said that the death's resulting from sanctions we imposed because they don't like our ideas are not our fault and any death figures for whatever reason simply can't be counted.

I just want everyone to understand what he said.

This is what the pro-war thinker does with the facts and their mind. This is how people can convince themselves that our flag, our God and our good ol boys in the army are all that matters. It's how they can sleep at night.

Otherwise LTFG, I don't feel like even dignifying your argument and opinion with a real response. I would say you're scum, but you're not, you're just a human behaving humanly.

LikesToFightGuy wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Quote :

On the third... Show me. If you can show me where we have spilled more Muslim blood than they have non-Muslim, I'll concede that point. Remember that statement was made shortly after the attacks of 9-11.
The fact you even ask this shows how blind and deaf you are to any fact that doesn't align with your views.

Agreed. LTFG is the oldest here yet the least qualified to talk on this issue. It's indefensible. He isn't some kid. He has all the resources. He just chooses to avoid anything outside his comfort zone.

Least qualified? You mean because we view things in a different way? You mean because you like to think that our government is the most evil entity on the planet and you can with a clear conscience assert anything that the world's woes are our government's fault in some way? I don't think our government is innocent by any means... But I also don't try to attach the world's problems to our government or think that the government as a whole is an evil empire.

This is all rhetoric. Our Government isn't any more or less evil than any other entity on the planet. But thousands of American solders and millions of Muslims have died as a direct result of our actions. Good and evil, those are stupid fairytale notions that people just like you use to justify our actions.

America doesn't need to involve itself with Israel or the middle east at all. The reasons we do it aren't evil, just wrong and ultimately pointless. What do we get out of the war anyway?

From GDP:

Like I said, it's a loaded question. You think they have an obligation of disclosure because, why again? To start, because I am, so why should they be exempt? They are hiding behind being a non-profit. I've done churches as a non-profit, yet am told to disclose funding sources. Might it be different in New York?... Sure. But I don't think it's out of line for people to ask or to ask why they don't want to or even want to discuss it.

And he's not taking anytime to dispell the rumors that the majority of those funds are coming from sources in Saudi Arabia, Libya and Iran.
Aren't these countries filled with Muslims? Wouldn't logic suggest a money funnel? What would an audit of Vatican City turn up I wonder, probably that all of their revenues come from Vatican City no doubt. Which is why it shouldn't be a problem if the sources are clean. If they have nothing to hide, then just answer the question.

The first is to answer where the funds are coming from since there are rumors that they are coming from areas that have terrorist ties.
There it is. There are terrorists in the Middle East. He is getting some of the money from the Middle East. He is getting money from terrorists. So wait, you don't think it's ignorant to look the other way and not question it when the rumor exists that the money might be coming from extremist ties? That kind of complacency is what leads to shit hitting the fan. I suppose you think it's overstepping our bounds to make people walk through metal detectors at airports as well, right?

Again I ask, why doesn't anyone involved in this thing want to talk about where the money is coming from? I'm not given a choice and for some reason these guys are not only not being asked by people that should be asking, but they are ducking the media (The part that's not humping their legs) at every turn. It might be nothing... But I think it's irresponsible for us to not demand that they answer the questions.
They are ducking the lynch mob. The trend of swallowing ones bigotry is being bucked and celebrated more and more and these bucker's have attempted to pervert what constitutes freedom/right/wrong/truth/etc, as a calling. Being prejudice isn't a just basis for the demanding of any unlawful disclosure. There is a sad and increasing amount of exploitative pandering and mental manipulation going on on issues very much like the South Manhattan Community Center. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but if you want to avoid the lynch mob, lay your cards on the table and show that you are indeed there to bring the community closer. His actions (Or inaction) are doing the opposite. Some are saying that tolerance should be shown and we should just accept it for what it is... But he isn't really allowing people to see the whole picture. I can hand you an apple and with a smile say, "Please enjoy... It's a tasty apple". And you wouldn't know what I've given you until your lips are turning blue as you're gasping for life. This guy has done nothing to deserve trust OR distrust. But when asked a simple question, he won't answer. I'm not the only one that finds that odd. People ask simple questions and that's being called bigoted or prejudiced by some? WOW...

You know GDP, you criticize the fact that the majority of people want the Imam to answer a couple of questions but fail to acknowledge that if he and his property owner would do just that, that a lot of headaches would be avoided. We have as much a right to question his motives and ties as he does to build where he wants and not talk, right?

I pity the ignorance.

Thomasdrrn09 wrote:

You have yet to give me a reason why the mosque shouldn't be built.

I have yet to say that it shouldn't be built. All I've done is ask where Rauf is getting the funds, questioned his comments about 9-11 and said that I understand why people that live in the area are sensitive to its location...

Just lock this thread. LTFG is beyond hope and has exhausted his entertainment value.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Quote :

My reform?... Okay, I'll play along. If you go back and reread my posts I think you'll see a key point. Rauf's comment was made right after the attacks of 9-11. So, Afghanistan and this Iraq war can't be included (Though if they were I'd have to concede). Now let's be realistic about this... You cannot count some proposed number from sanctions. It's not up to us to feed and care for the world. We offer at the kindness of our liberal bleeding hearts and to political benefit, our help if third world countries are struggling... And if you can't toe the line, then we cut you off at the knees. Adding that "number" is ridiculous. So this leaves us with a number from the first Iraq war (Casualties due to a war occurring on their soil is reaching as well, IMO) and a plane that was mistakenly shot down (Or was it?). If you add both of those numbers, we're close. Like I said, I'd concede if it was proven... But an accident, wartime casualties and a guess of deaths supposedly caused by (Mostly outdated) sanctions mean little to me. No way I'm saying that it's a fact that the US had shed more innocent blood.

LTFG just said that the death's resulting from sanctions we imposed because they don't like our ideas are not our fault and any death figures for whatever reason simply can't be counted.

I just want everyone to understand what he said.

This is what the pro-war thinker does with the facts and their mind. This is how people can convince themselves that our flag, our God and our good ol boys in the army are all that matters. It's how they can sleep at night.

Otherwise LTFG, I don't feel like even dignifying your argument and opinion with a real response. I would say you're scum, but you're not, you're just a human behaving humanly.

So Wolf, you believe that we are here to support the rest of the world that can't take care of themselves and that no matter what they do or say about our policies we should just smile and keep giving handouts? Do I have that correct?

Why does he keep equating debilitating sanctions to handouts?

Wolfgangsta wrote:

LikesToFightGuy wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Quote :

On the third... Show me. If you can show me where we have spilled more Muslim blood than they have non-Muslim, I'll concede that point. Remember that statement was made shortly after the attacks of 9-11.
The fact you even ask this shows how blind and deaf you are to any fact that doesn't align with your views.

Agreed. LTFG is the oldest here yet the least qualified to talk on this issue. It's indefensible. He isn't some kid. He has all the resources. He just chooses to avoid anything outside his comfort zone.

Least qualified? You mean because we view things in a different way? You mean because you like to think that our government is the most evil entity on the planet and you can with a clear conscience assert anything that the world's woes are our government's fault in some way? I don't think our government is innocent by any means... But I also don't try to attach the world's problems to our government or think that the government as a whole is an evil empire.

This is all rhetoric. Our Government isn't any more or less evil than any other entity on the planet. But thousands of American solders and millions of Muslims have died as a direct result of our actions. Good and evil, those are stupid fairytale notions that people just like you use to justify our actions.

America doesn't need to involve itself with Israel or the middle east at all. The reasons we do it aren't evil, just wrong and ultimately pointless. What do we get out of the war anyway?

I agree to a point. But until the whole planet can just give eachother a hug and say that religion and politics don't matter, it's the world we live in. Political allies and protecting ours and their interests are a way of life... Agree or disagree it's just the way it is.

GDPofDRC wrote:

I pity the ignorance.

Back at ya sunshine...

We get nothing from protecting Israel. Zionists use us as hired muscle. I'm not cool with that, we get nothing from our relationship with Israel except terrorism. Then we use that terrorism to further justify aggression against them. Horrific.

LikesToFightGuy wrote:

From GDP:

Like I said, it's a loaded question. You think they have an obligation of disclosure because, why again? To start, because I am, so why should they be exempt? They are hiding behind being a non-profit. I've done churches as a non-profit, yet am told to disclose funding sources. Might it be different in New York?... Sure. But I don't think it's out of line for people to ask or to ask why they don't want to or even want to discuss it.

And he's not taking anytime to dispell the rumors that the majority of those funds are coming from sources in Saudi Arabia, Libya and Iran.
Aren't these countries filled with Muslims? Wouldn't logic suggest a money funnel? What would an audit of Vatican City turn up I wonder, probably that all of their revenues come from Vatican City no doubt. Which is why it shouldn't be a problem if the sources are clean. If they have nothing to hide, then just answer the question.

The first is to answer where the funds are coming from since there are rumors that they are coming from areas that have terrorist ties.
There it is. There are terrorists in the Middle East. He is getting some of the money from the Middle East. He is getting money from terrorists. So wait, you don't think it's ignorant to look the other way and not question it when the rumor exists that the money might be coming from extremist ties? That kind of complacency is what leads to shit hitting the fan. I suppose you think it's overstepping our bounds to make people walk through metal detectors at airports as well, right?

Again I ask, why doesn't anyone involved in this thing want to talk about where the money is coming from? I'm not given a choice and for some reason these guys are not only not being asked by people that should be asking, but they are ducking the media (The part that's not humping their legs) at every turn. It might be nothing... But I think it's irresponsible for us to not demand that they answer the questions.
They are ducking the lynch mob. The trend of swallowing ones bigotry is being bucked and celebrated more and more and these bucker's have attempted to pervert what constitutes freedom/right/wrong/truth/etc, as a calling. Being prejudice isn't a just basis for the demanding of any unlawful disclosure. There is a sad and increasing amount of exploitative pandering and mental manipulation going on on issues very much like the South Manhattan Community Center. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but if you want to avoid the lynch mob, lay your cards on the table and show that you are indeed there to bring the community closer. His actions (Or inaction) are doing the opposite. Some are saying that tolerance should be shown and we should just accept it for what it is... But he isn't really allowing people to see the whole picture. I can hand you an apple and with a smile say, "Please enjoy... It's a tasty apple". And you wouldn't know what I've given you until your lips are turning blue as you're gasping for life. This guy has done nothing to deserve trust OR distrust. But when asked a simple question, he won't answer. I'm not the only one that finds that odd. People ask simple questions and that's being called bigoted or prejudiced by some? WOW...

You know GDP, you criticize the fact that the majority of people want the Imam to answer a couple of questions but fail to acknowledge that if he and his property owner would do just that, that a lot of headaches would be avoided. We have as much a right to question his motives and ties as he does to build where he wants and not talk, right?

Thanks for clarifying. You would of been a great man in Salem around the 1600's.

He would have been even better in the 1870s when we had all them damn natives runnin amuck out west and we needed to slaughter a few million bison to cut them off economically.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Why does he keep equating debilitating sanctions to handouts?

It's all political leverage, Wolf. If you're a third world country relying on aid from a developed country... Don't you think you want to stay on the good side of the umbrella holder? If I have an employee come up to me and spit in my face, I'm not caring if he can feed his family or not because he knows damn well what the repercussions of his actions are. It's called life...