Clear thinking Muslims on the Mosque

For the ADD crowd that can't follow along past two sentences... Sorry

Why can't a large group of idiot politicians and public officials get this point through their thick skulls? It's not a legal issue, it's about using this opportunity to do the right thing and showing compassion towards the American publics sensitivity towards that specific area in New York... And regardless of where the mosque goes up, questions need to be answered by Rauf himself on where he stands with radicals, comments he's made over the last ten years and where he's getting his funding from...

Anyway, it's good to hear that some influential Muslims are clear thinking on the issue...


By RACHEL ZOLL

NEW YORK (AP) - American Muslims who support the proposed mosque and Islamic center near ground zero are facing skeptics within their own faith - those who argue that the project is insensitive to Sept. 11 victims and needlessly provocative at a time when Muslims are pressing for wider acceptance in the U.S.

"For most Americans, 9/11 remains as an open wound, and anything associated with Islam, even for Americans who want to understand Islam - to have an Islamic center with so much publicity is like rubbing salt in open wounds," said Akbar Ahmed, professor of Islamic studies at American University, a former Pakistani ambassador to Britain and author of "Journey Into America, The Challenge of Islam." He said the space should include a synagogue and a church so it will truly be interfaith.

Abdul Cader Asmal, past president of the Islamic Council of New England, an umbrella group for more than 15 Islamic centers, said some opponents of the $100 million, 13-story project are indeed anti-Muslim. But he said many Americans have genuine, understandable questions about Islam and extremism.

In light of those fears, and the opposition of many relatives of 9/11 victims, Asmal said organizers should dramatically scale back the project to just a simple mosque, despite their legal right to construct what they want.

"Winning in the court of law is not going to help improve the image of Muslims nationwide," said Asmal, a Massachusetts physician. "You have to win the hearts and minds of the ordinary American people."

The project has touched off a national debate over religious tolerance, American ideals and the still-fresh pain of the terrorist attacks. The center's leaders, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, and his wife, Daisy Khan, have a long record of interfaith outreach in New York and beyond. They insist the center will be a voice for moderate Islam and will welcome people of all religions. Supporters are outraged that critics suspect the couple of an extremist agenda.

Asra Nomani, author of "Standing Alone: An American Woman's Struggle for the Soul of Islam," said she backs the idea of the mosque in principle but believes the feelings of families who lost loved ones in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks should trump the plan.

"I haven't been able to support the building of the mosque right there in the location they've got," said Nomani, an advocate for women's rights and tolerance in the Muslim world.

The developers for the project, called Park51, have modeled their plan on a YMCA and Jewish Community Center. The site, two blocks from where the World Trade Center stood, will include a pool, gym and 500-seat auditorium for cultural events for the general public, along with a mosque and a Sept. 11 memorial. Rauf is now traveling overseas on his latest speaking tour for the U.S. State Department.

Even among American Muslims who back the idea, there has been grumbling about what they consider the organizers' public relations missteps. A plan to build what would essentially be a local city mosque has now turned into a national confrontation that is roiling Muslim communities nationwide. Rauf's decision to remain overseas without making a statement on the controversy has also caused some frustration. Khan, and developer Sharif El-Gamal of SoHo Properties, which owns the building, have mostly been the public face of Park51.

"The total absence of Feisal Rauf has a 'Where's Waldo' quality that is maddening in itself," U.S. Muslim writer Aziz Poonawalla, who supports the center, told the blog ordinary-gentlemen.com. "I'm quite capable of defending Rauf against some of the accusations against him, but am not inclined to carry his water for him while he gallivants about the globe."

Beyond misgivings about the location, some U.S. Muslims have raised concerns about what the mosque could become after Rauf and Khan retire and inevitably turn the center over to new leadership. Like houses of worship in all faiths, Islamic centers can change over time depending on the worldviews of congregants and the imams who lead them.

Nomani said American Muslims have not fully confronted extremism in Islam, which makes her worried that any mosque has the potential to become a haven for those with rigid views.

"Yes, there is prejudice against Muslims in the modern day, but also Muslims in the modern day have an extremist problem," Nomani said.

Tawfik Hamid, an Egyptian scholar and reformer who said he was once a member of a terrorist group, said he had a "conditional objection" to the proposed Islamic center.

He said it was not enough for Park51 leaders to call themselves moderate. Instead, they should "clearly and unambiguously" reject radicalization by opposing specific extremist practices, such as killing apostates, stoning women for adultery, calling Jews "pigs and monkeys" and "declaring war" on non-Muslims who refuse to convert.

"This, in my view, will be perceived by radicals in Islam as a defeat for their ideology," said Hamid, senior fellow at the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies. "They think in a very primitive way. If they see a mosque near ground zero, this would certainly be perceived as a sign of victory for al-Qaeda. In the end, they will think, 'They are bowing to us.'"

Few American Muslims who lost relatives in the terrorist strikes have spoken out, but those who have are also divided.

Talat Hamdani, a Muslim whose son Salman, a New York police cadet and emergency medical technician, was killed on Sept. 11, supports the proposal. "I'm not fighting for a mosque. I'm fighting for my rights," she said.

By contrast, Neda Bolourchi of Los Angeles, a native of Iran whose mother was on one of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center, opposes the plan.

"I fear that over time, it will cultivate a fundamentalist version of the Muslim faith, embracing those who share such beliefs and hating those who do not," she wrote in a Washington Post op-ed. "To the supporters of this new Islamic cultural center, I must ask: Build your ideological monument somewhere else, far from my mother's grave, and let her rest."

Very good article LTFG.

if they rejected all extremists i would be fine with it. Im all for religious freedom, but not for religious extremism. People who take religion too seriously and read into it too much are always gonna be fucked in the head, regardless of what religion it is.

If it's not extremism, then it doesn't exist near Ground Zero. New York is a very large city and Gov. Patterson offered them an alternative piece of land to build on. I can't help but think the builders of this mosque are trying to make a disgusting statement.

4445Frank wrote:

If it's not extremism, then it doesn't exist near Ground Zero. New York is a very large city and Gov. Patterson offered them an alternative piece of land to build on. I can't help but think the builders of this mosque are trying to make a disgusting statement.

I definitely agree.

I agree. I've been saying the whole time that if they want to build a mosque build it somewhere else not there. If they are going to build anything there then it should either be a musuem or a memorial building to remember the unfortunate that passed away that day. They could even build a youth centre which brings in the youth of all races and religions like black, white, Jewish, Christian and Muslim and teaches them about each other and how to get along. That would honour the memory of 9/11 better.

i love how it has gone form they cant build a mosque on ground zero

to they cant buil d a mosque 3 blocks from ground zero!!!

Bird, they "can" build a mosque wherever they want. No one is saying it isn't within their rights to do that. 70% of America thinks it's extremely insensitive under the circumstances. And a few idiot politicians think that 70% of America should just shut the fuck up because they know more and could care less what our citizens think! It's not just because it's Muslim's hanging near ground zero and those ignorant politicians and die hard liberals aren't listening to that part... A big part of the uproar is about Rauf and his views on the terrorist attack of 9-11 and the fact that he isn't diclosing where the 100 mil to build the mosque came from. And he's not taking anytime to dispell the rumors that the majority of those funds are coming from sources in Saudi Arabia, Libya and Iran.

I have a question for you my friend. Why is it so important to a certain group that this gets done? Why are they defending it so vehemently? And if it's so important to them to protect the so called "rights" of the Muslims, why has Mayor Bloomberg been blocking permits for a Greek Orthodox church to be built where it was destroyed by the attacks?

It's not a mosque you numbnuts. It's a communtiy center. Muslim Point small fowards. Oh NO!!!!!!!

At the pro-mosque rally, staged a block away from opponents' demonstration, several hundred people chanted, "Muslims are welcome here! We say no to racist fear!"

Dr. Ali Akram, a 39-year-old Brooklyn physician, came with his three sons and an 11-year-old nephew waving an American flag. He noted that scores of Muslims were among those who died in the towers, and he called those who oppose the mosque "un-American."

"They teach their children about the freedom of religion in America - but they don't practice what they preach," Akram said.

Birdofthad wrote:

At the pro-mosque rally, staged a block away from opponents' demonstration, several hundred people chanted, "Muslims are welcome here! We say no to racist fear!"

Dr. Ali Akram, a 39-year-old Brooklyn physician, came with his three sons and an 11-year-old nephew waving an American flag. He noted that scores of Muslims were among those who died in the towers, and he called those who oppose the mosque "un-American."

"They teach their children about the freedom of religion in America - but they don't practice what they preach," Akram said.

Bird, you and I both know that this has as much to do with freedom of religion as a game of horseshoes. If they want to practice their faith, they can attend the Assata Islamic mosque (One of over a hundred in the city - You'd think if it was a freedom of religion issue, people would be protesting outside all of their doors too, huh?) that's been in place for many years that's less than half mile away, wouldn't you think? Hell, if they want to build this mosque right next door to that one or anywhere else that's not going to cast a shadow on ground zero, most American's wouldn't object.

I do find it refreshing that they are finally willing to meet with the Governor and others to discuss possibilities of using an alternate site. It sounds like someone's finally getting the point that most of America thinks they should be a little more sensitive to how we feel about that particular area...

Although... I and many others still have questions about the Imam. Still not talking about where he's getting the 100 mil from. His so-called construction account currently has 17K in it, so he's obviously awaiting wire transfers from somewhere. And does he still think that we need to adopt Sharia Law for Muslims in America (Boy if you think the bleeding hearts are bent about the mosque controversy, wait until they see what Sharia is all about... They'd shit their pants reading how they deal with people)? If so, why should they be exempt from our laws and who does he think is going to enforce those extremist laws? I've got a list of my own laws and ideals I'd like the government to recognize for anyone I see fit rather than recognizing the current laws in place by our government... Think my voice will be heard? And I'd like Rauf to finally come out of hiding and answer questions about his comments following the terrorist attacks... Some of those were very curious to say the least.

So in summation... Either have this guy come clean to an acceptable level and move the mosque a little farther away, or kick this guy to the curb and have a less controversial figure head the project up while still moving it a little farther away... Pretty simple solutions to the issue, huh?

Thomasdrrn09 wrote:

It's not a mosque you numbnuts. It's a communtiy center. Muslim Point small fowards. Oh NO!!!!!!!

I hope you're kidding... Calling that just a community center is like calling a strip club a dance studio...

honestly i don't know enough about the people running the project to really have an opinion on them, but if they in any way shape or form are connected to extremism than this will not work. If everything is legit and they are good islamic people then i have no problem with it.

As for the protesters though, i definitely understand how much of an open wound this still is, but that still does not give you the right to be a bigot and denounce and entire race of people because of something that a small group of extremists did. I mean there are christian extremists in our own country who blow up abortion clinics killing hundreds of innocent people but no one is telling any religion even loosely associated with christianity that they cant put up their church wherever the hell they want.

oggy420 wrote:

honestly i don't know enough about the people running the project to really have an opinion on them, but if they in any way shape or form are connected to extremism than this will not work. If everything is legit and they are good islamic people then i have no problem with it.

As for the protesters though, i definitely understand how much of an open wound this still is, but that still does not give you the right to be a bigot and denounce and entire race of people because of something that a small group of extremists did. I mean there are christian extremists in our own country who blow up abortion clinics killing hundreds of innocent people but no one is telling any religion even loosely associated with christianity that they cant put up their church wherever the hell they want.

Damn Oggy... We agree on something. And there's no evidence linking Farmer and that clininc...

As far as that church thingy... Might want to have a chat with Mayor Bloomberg in New York. He seems hell bent on getting this thing built but has been allowing the Port Authority which he oversees to be a thorn in the side of the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox church who can't get permits to rebuild their own that was destroyed in the 9-11 attack.

LikesToFightGuy wrote:

Thomasdrrn09 wrote:

It's not a mosque you numbnuts. It's a communtiy center. Muslim Point small fowards. Oh NO!!!!!!!

I hope you're kidding... Calling that just a community center is like calling a strip club a dance studio...

It is a community centers. The first eleven stories are all for activities and shit while the top two are for worship. If you knew anything about this topic you would realize that in the Muslim faith a mosque can only serve the single purpose for worship which this does not. There is an actual mosque inside the pentagon. Why is no one protesting that. And there is a mosque located 4 blocks away from ground zero that has been there since 1970. No controversy there. The fact that 70 % of Americans don't support these people's right to build the mosque is disgusting and shows that we are still far behind other countries in terms of tolerance to people of all faiths and lifestyles.

"The fact that 70 % of Americans don't support these people's right to build the mosque is disgusting and shows that we are still far behind other countries in terms of tolerance to people of all faiths and lifestyles."

well this is true. But then again 20% of americans think Mr. Obama is a muslim. If you need to know how dumb-downed our population is getting all you have to do is look at the education system and how low we rank in test scores among reading, math and science. The fact is people are more concerned about materialistic things than their own education. It is a sad reality.

oggy420 wrote:

"The fact that 70 % of Americans don't support these people's right to build the mosque is disgusting and shows that we are still far behind other countries in terms of tolerance to people of all faiths and lifestyles."

well this is true. But then again 20% of americans think Mr. Obama is a muslim. If you need to know how dumb-downed our population is getting all you have to do is look at the education system and how low we rank in test scores among reading, math and science. The fact is people are more concerned about materialistic things than their own education. It is a sad reality.

The thing I always found hilarious about that is even if he was muslim (which he is not) does that mean he can't be president.

Of course not. There is this facade that we actually seperate church and state but that is the farthest thing from the truth.

Thomasdrrn09 wrote:

LikesToFightGuy wrote:

Thomasdrrn09 wrote:

It's not a mosque you numbnuts. It's a communtiy center. Muslim Point small fowards. Oh NO!!!!!!!

I hope you're kidding... Calling that just a community center is like calling a strip club a dance studio...

It is a community centers. The first eleven stories are all for activities and shit while the top two are for worship. If you knew anything about this topic you would realize that in the Muslim faith a mosque can only serve the single purpose for worship which this does not. There is an actual mosque inside the pentagon. Why is no one protesting that. And there is a mosque located 4 blocks away from ground zero that has been there since 1970. No controversy there. The fact that 70 % of Americans don't support these people's right to build the mosque is disgusting and shows that we are still far behind other countries in terms of tolerance to people of all faiths and lifestyles.

So wait, the place down the street that says Baptist church isn't really a church at all since it has a full service kitchen, basketball courts, a gymnasium, auditorium and a 5,000 seat outside amphitheater? FUCK??? Why do they insist on trying to decieve us? This is why I've never stepped foot inside (Love the sound quality of bands playing at the amphitheater though).

Seriously, if it's not a place of worship or prayer, then why is everyone screaming "FREEDOM OF RELIGION" when someone says they think that it shows a lack of compassion in its locale? BTW- Kudo's for knowing the design specs. I haven't been able to locate that anywhere. I know they have plans to have a kitchen and culinary school (Italian or French I'm sure), a library, auditorium, recreation facility and an education and cultural center... But none of this means dick when you look at who is heading it up and his desire to stay out of the picture and not answer questions. Does this guy not make you scratch your head at all? I can't speak for the 70% that share my opinion... But I hope that they have the same reasoning as I do for wanting questions answered, rather than it just being about the fact that it's Islamic ties putting it together.

And yes, I've already brought up the other mosques in the area... Which is why I ask why a need for another? As far as the pentagon goes, two reasons for that being untouched or unquestioned. One is that it's not on public property. Can you or I walk through the doors and wander around looking for a place to toss down a carpet and pray? Two is that it was there long before the attacks (Just like the other mosques around New York... Not that it should matter).

It's pretty simple in the vast majorities minds... Answer our questions about Imam Rauf. If he comes clean, show some good faith by considering moving it a little farther away from the restaurants and strip clubs that surround that location...

LikesToFightGuy wrote:

Thomasdrrn09 wrote:

LikesToFightGuy wrote:

Thomasdrrn09 wrote:

It's not a mosque you numbnuts. It's a communtiy center. Muslim Point small fowards. Oh NO!!!!!!!

I hope you're kidding... Calling that just a community center is like calling a strip club a dance studio...

It is a community centers. The first eleven stories are all for activities and shit while the top two are for worship. If you knew anything about this topic you would realize that in the Muslim faith a mosque can only serve the single purpose for worship which this does not. There is an actual mosque inside the pentagon. Why is no one protesting that. And there is a mosque located 4 blocks away from ground zero that has been there since 1970. No controversy there. The fact that 70 % of Americans don't support these people's right to build the mosque is disgusting and shows that we are still far behind other countries in terms of tolerance to people of all faiths and lifestyles.

So wait, the place down the street that says Baptist church isn't really a church at all since it has a full service kitchen, basketball courts, a gymnasium, auditorium and a 5,000 seat outside amphitheater? FUCK??? Why do they insist on trying to decieve us? This is why I've never stepped foot inside (Love the sound quality of bands playing at the amphitheater though).

Seriously, if it's not a place of worship or prayer, then why is everyone screaming "FREEDOM OF RELIGION" when someone says they think that it shows a lack of compassion in its locale? BTW- Kudo's for knowing the design specs. I haven't been able to locate that anywhere. I know they have plans to have a kitchen and culinary school (Italian or French I'm sure), a library, auditorium, recreation facility and an education and cultural center... But none of this means dick when you look at who is heading it up and his desire to stay out of the picture and not answer questions. Does this guy not make you scratch your head at all? I can't speak for the 70% that share my opinion... But I hope that they have the same reasoning as I do for wanting questions answered, rather than it just being about the fact that it's Islamic ties putting it together.

And yes, I've already brought up the other mosques in the area... Which is why I ask why a need for another? As far as the pentagon goes, two reasons for that being untouched or unquestioned. One is that it's not on public property. Can you or I walk through the doors and wander around looking for a place to toss down a carpet and pray? Two is that it was there long before the attacks (Just like the other mosques around New York... Not that it should matter).

It's pretty simple in the vast majorities minds... Answer our questions about Imam Rauf. If he comes clean, show some good faith by considering moving it a little farther away from the restaurants and strip clubs that surround that location...

What is wrong with Imam Rauf. He has repetedly called the 9/11 attacks unislamic and he has written books. The center will have a whole giant section that is a mermorial to those who died on 9/11. I have yet to hear a good argument for why this builiding can't go up.

Because LTFG is a Christian, and Islam is a mud religion.


If you're waiting for a good reason that doesn't involve racism keep waiting.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Because LTFG is a Christian, and Islam is a mud religion.


If you're waiting for a good reason that doesn't involve racism keep waiting.

Yeah I don't think it is racism I think it is just fear of the unknown. The worst thing that the guy developing this said was that hamas may not be a terrorist group which is something I kinda agree with him with.

Hamas are freedom fighters in the same vein as minute men. Israeli's are redcoats.

Thomasdrrn09 wrote:

What is wrong with Imam Rauf. He has repetedly called the 9/11 attacks unislamic and he has written books. The center will have a whole giant section that is a mermorial to those who died on 9/11. I have yet to hear a good argument for why this builiding can't go up.

And I could write a book saying that I'm a 7' hermaphrodite looking to secure special rights for the latest minority group getting the shaft in America... But does that make it true or mean anything in the grand scheme? Everyone who writes a book now is completely honest and agenda free?

It's pretty simple... If you wanted to get a "cultural center" built and the people that live in the area you want to build in are asking some pretty basic questions... Wouldn't you answer those quickly so you can end any and all controversy? All I (And many others) want him to do is answer some questions that he seems hell bent on ignoring during this debate.

The first is to answer where the funds are coming from since there are rumors that they are coming from areas that have terrorist ties. I build commercial and residential projects for a living, and funding details have to be disclosed publicly with every project. The local newspaper lists out my plans, permits, timelines, environmental detailing and financials which include project cost and sourcing... Why should he be any different?

The second is to answer or explain his comments about the attacks themselves and his views of America... Quote, "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened. But the United States' policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." ... "We have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA" ... "We tend to forget in the West that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-Muslims". You see, I would like expansion on these thoughts to see exactly where he is coming from... Don't you?

And I could care less about his defense or lack of opinion on Hamas as a terrorist group. Most Americans are completely uneducated on Hamas and only trust what they are being told by whatever media source they listen to. I tend to agree that they are extremist as a whole, but stop short of calling them terrorists. But again, his views here mean little to me on the issue of his heading up this mosque.

I think anyone who doesn't want answers prior to continuation is ignorant. It shocks me that there are people out there that don't have a red flag feature built in their brain. For me, answer a few questions, and if you pass the litmus test then build away. You can even build it right there if you want to continue to step on the feelings of the locals that still have issues. I live 3,000 miles away, so my views are limited to what Rauf is really about. But I do understand why it's sensitive to locals...

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Because LTFG is a Christian, and Islam is a mud religion.


If you're waiting for a good reason that doesn't involve racism keep waiting.

Keep trying, Wolf. But I grip a Bible and knock on doors about as often as you rub a little brass statue and bow to Buddha. Your attempts are transparent and ridiculous as always. Since you seem so interested in the debate all of a sudden, please share your insights as I've given plenty to discuss on the topic. Am I wrong for asking questions?