When does Shogun become the p4p king again?

Yeah, he is almost the best fighter in the world, key word, fighter. GSP or Anderson being up there longer in recent history doesn't make them better fighters imo. Especially taking into account real recent history. They both just won against what many consider to be largely inferior fighters. Were many saying Machida was largely inferior to Shogun in their last two fights? Point being I already have Shogun nipping at the man more than other guys because I think he is a better fighter than them.

ohiovol62 wrote:

So Grim wasn't a quality win? Whatever.

If Fedor beat God, you homers would find a way to discredit it.

I think Grim is overrated, therefore I'm a homer for...what? The UFC?

Fuck that. I think Grim is overrated because he has has exactly one quality win in his entire career yet is listed in a Top 5. It would be like putting Paulo Thiago in a Top 5 list for beating Koscheck, and then keeping him there after his subsequent loss to Fitch.

I'm not saying Grim is a bad fighter, I'm just saying ranking a guy Top 5 for beating one #7 guy, and then losing (regardless of who that loss was too) seems insane to me. He may end up as the #1 of all time, who knows, but at this point he hasn't done much.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Yo bigs eat the right dick too. You get all personal after you jumped into this thread "yo stop suckin his dick" and you expect me not to say some shit back? Then you neg me? I should call you a gaywad, but instead I think I'll just tell you to STFU and grow up.

Anyway surprisingly this thread is full of a bunch of guys who are all like "yo its gonna take years and losses from a bunch of people before he could be even close" and ten - one says all these same people will have him around 2 in a year or less.

205 is the crown jewel of the sport. Shogun schooling another top 205'r impressively is nearly an automatic bid to the 2 spot. Look where Machida wound up after knocking Rashad out?

The one thing that really puzzles me is Jose fucking Aldo over Shogun fucking Rua? Huh? Seriously? Beating the only two real fighters in a division still in it's infancy and literally no one his entire career else isn't the same as beating Lyoto Machida. It isn't the same as winning at 205 and this isn't Shogun's first rodeo. He was a top p4p fighter for years in the past, Jose Aldo has been on the p4p lists for a matter of months. Hell, had Machida-Shogun 2 happened a month ago and Aldo-Faber last weekend, everyone who stuck Aldo at 3 would have Shogun there right now and Aldo at 4...

If in a year and a half Machida drops down and knockout Anderson Silva or moves up and knocks out whatever HW champion is atop the UFC division it would hardly be nuthuggery to ask this same question of him.

First of all, I didn't neg you.

Secondly, whatever, it's your p4p list...even if it sucks. The bottom line is that you're arguing for Shogun to be number one p4p after only one quality victory. It doesn't make much sense when there are 3 other guys who have been racking up quality wins for years in a row now. But like I said, it's your p4p list.

thessy11 wrote:

ohiovol62 wrote:

So Grim wasn't a quality win? Whatever.

If Fedor beat God, you homers would find a way to discredit it.

I think Grim is overrated, therefore I'm a homer for...what? The UFC?

Fuck that. I think Grim is overrated because he has has exactly one quality win in his entire career yet is listed in a Top 5. It would be like putting Paulo Thiago in a Top 5 list for beating Koscheck, and then keeping him there after his subsequent loss to Fitch.

I'm not saying Grim is a bad fighter, I'm just saying ranking a guy Top 5 for beating one #7 guy, and then losing (regardless of who that loss was too) seems insane to me. He may end up as the #1 of all time, who knows, but at this point he hasn't done much.

actually since he lost to fedor, it would be like losing to a guy like GSP... look at the rankings now, and see where ppl rank hardy for instance, most sites have him in the top ten even tho he got mauled by gsp

Where did I argue that? I asked what would he have to do to be considered that again.

Your reply seemed strange. I just assumed you were being a dick. Nope. You simply didn't read the original post clearly, and later neglected to read my reply where I said I have him at 4 at present.

Then again, replying with constant references to man on man oral sex without even really knowing what you're replying to might be construde as dickheaddery in some circles.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Where did I argue that? I asked what would he have to do to be considered that again.

Your reply seemed strange. I just assumed you were being a dick. Nope. You simply didn't read the original post clearly, and later neglected to read my reply where I said I have him at 4 at present.

Then again, replying with constant references to man on man oral sex without even really knowing what you're replying to might be construde as dickheaddery in some circles.

You can dish it but you sure can't take it.

And I did not neg you, however, I'm willing to bet that you negged me.

Can't take what? That limp wristed jab about taking it deep? Ouch man. You got me. What is next, you'll screamed "owned" when you say "fag"? Don't act like you were trying to play the game because you were too fucking stupid to actually read what I said clearly. Yo if you were just playin the game you wouldn't have taken what I said about not watching Pride so offensively. Seems more like you are the one getting hot and bothered and can't hang. Yo, I try to avoid heated exchanges over dumb shit like p4p lists when dealing with mods nowdays because it makes our site look kind of stupid to new comers. Relax jax.

Besides Shogun very well could be as good as we once thought he was going to be.

Machida was ranked so high for alot of reasons, the least of which was Rashad. He was ranked so high because:

A) He was undefeated
B) Was the most elusive striker we had ever seen at the time
C) Had started knocking dudes out finally
D) Was Champion and looked unbeatable when he handled Rashad the way he did

Actually, given the overall strength of the light heavyweight division, it would prove a detriment to pound for pound status to be the Champion there, since we have had what, two successful title defenses in the last 3 years? And one of those was a fight alot of people viewed as a win for the challenger anyway. The fact that these guys have a hard time winning would hurt thier pound for pound status because alot of the time your losing to guys who aren't even in the top ten pound for pound list.

When Rampage fought Forest I don't think Forrest was in the top ten.
When Forrest fought Rashad I don't think Rashad was top ten, at least I don't remember him being there.
When Rashad fought Lyoto I am pretty sure Lyoto wasn't there and if he was it was 8-10 spot.
When Lyoto fought Shogun the first time Shogun wasn't in the top ten.

So fighting guys who are some of the top talents in the worlds premier weight class actually hurts pound for pound status because maintaining success is that much more difficult. On the flip side a devastating win should count for a little more than your average devastating performance in a weaker division, however you can't justify maintaining pound for pound status with losses(unless the circumstances are such as the ones surrounding BJ Penns loss, or Shoguns loss to Machida.)

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Can't take what? That limp wristed jab about taking it deep? Ouch man. You got me. What is next, you'll screamed "owned" when you say "fag"? Don't act like you were trying to play the game because you were too fucking stupid to actually read what I said clearly. Yo if you were just playin the game you wouldn't have taken what I said about not watching Pride so offensively. Seems more like you are the one getting hot and bothered and can't hang. Yo, I try to avoid heated exchanges over dumb shit like p4p lists when dealing with mods nowdays because it makes our site look kind of stupid to new comers. Relax jax.

Besides Shogun very well could be as good as we once thought he was going to be.

You're right, you've always been so level-headed and you never make this board look less than professional.

And no, you can't take it. You constantly make comments much worse than the one I made and you expect people not to get upset or pissed about it. Now when someone says something to you they get negged and garbage spews forth from your piehole. Like I said, you can dish it but you can't take it.

As far as what you posted...you were bringing up an argument about when Shogun should be number one. No one else posted that because no one else was jumping to that conclusion after one good win. I was simply pointing out the error of your ways.

Anyhow, because we all know arguing with you is futile and apparently you like negging people, I'm finished with you now.

killerofchicken wrote:

thessy11 wrote:

ohiovol62 wrote:

So Grim wasn't a quality win? Whatever.

If Fedor beat God, you homers would find a way to discredit it.

I think Grim is overrated, therefore I'm a homer for...what? The UFC?

Fuck that. I think Grim is overrated because he has has exactly one quality win in his entire career yet is listed in a Top 5. It would be like putting Paulo Thiago in a Top 5 list for beating Koscheck, and then keeping him there after his subsequent loss to Fitch.

I'm not saying Grim is a bad fighter, I'm just saying ranking a guy Top 5 for beating one #7 guy, and then losing (regardless of who that loss was too) seems insane to me. He may end up as the #1 of all time, who knows, but at this point he hasn't done much.

actually since he lost to fedor, it would be like losing to a guy like GSP... look at the rankings now, and see where ppl rank hardy for instance, most sites have him in the top ten even tho he got mauled by gsp

That's because Dan Hardy was Top 10 (on Sherdog) BEFORE fighting #6 Mike Swick, a fight which he won and resulted in him moving to #4, which is where he was when he fought GSP. He was already an established top 10 fighter when he got his marquee win. Brett Rogers wasn't anywhere near the Top 10 and realistically probably wasn't Top 20 before he beat Arlovski, yet that one win (followed by a KO loss) moves him to Top 5? NFW.

Error in my ways? The guy just knocked out Lyoto fucking Machida and was has already been ranked that high before. It was a reasonable question. You're an imbecile.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Error in my ways? The guy just knocked out Lyoto fucking Machida and was has already been ranked that high before. It was a reasonable question. You're an imbecile.

Yeah, Lyoto defended his title once in a controversial decision win Machida, you're right. Let's just put him at 1 already.

Bigs03 wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Error in my ways? The guy just knocked out Lyoto fucking Machida and was has already been ranked that high before. It was a reasonable question. You're an imbecile.

Yeah, Lyoto defended his title once in a controversial decision win Machida, you're right. Let's just put him at 1 already.

Yo this really doesn't make sense, but even if you had actually typed this as it sounded in your head I still don't think I'd follow.

Look bigs, what are you even doing man? What is your end game here? I think you misread what I said and meant, jumped the gun and are now just going down with the ship. Can't you just be civil? I just made a thread to gauge what people's opinions were on him in a p4p context after a major victory over a major p4p player in the context of his earlier career success and ranking. It was a fair question that anyone else could have asked about any number of fighters in this position. If Wanderlei Silva knocked out Anderson tomorrow I'd start that thread too. If Machida knocks out Fedor in a year I'd start that thread too, and if BJ Penn moved up and knocked out GSP we might ask that there too.

Bigs just cut it out man. I'd rather not argue with the mods anymore here, makes us all look bad. (Especially when the arguments are this oppressively stupid)

shogun needs the big three to lose for him to move up IMO .. Plus I have Shogun at 5 for my p4p rankings that i havnt submitted.

Who are your big 3? GSP, Silva, Fedor? You have Aldo at 4 golbez?


What if GSP struggles against Koscheck, Fedor looks ineffective against Werdum and Silva has another deranged performance? Does that impact your rankings?

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Who are your big 3? GSP, Silva, Fedor? You have Aldo at 4 golbez?


What if GSP struggles against Koscheck, Fedor looks ineffective against Werdum and Silva has another deranged performance? Does that impact your rankings?

That is alot of what ifs. I talked about this with LTFG, if the perfect storm happens Shogun can shoot up rankings and make a push for #1. It isn't impossible to think GSP and Anderson continue to win in less then impressive fashion, Fedor's lack of cometition could catch up with eventually, Shogun in the long run is in a much tougher WC then Aldo and others so that plays to his favor big time.
Possible it could all happen, I just don't think it is likely.

When Shogun GnP's Anderson in six months I am bumpin' dis shit men.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Who are your big 3? GSP, Silva, Fedor? You have Aldo at 4 golbez?


What if GSP struggles against Koscheck, Fedor looks ineffective against Werdum and Silva has another deranged performance? Does that impact your rankings?

It would, but I think that if they didn't lose it would only shuffle those three around rather than drop them out of the top 3 .. But I don't know I guess it depends.

and yes I have Aldo at 4.. i think he could wreck 35 and 55

and man I hope GSP struggles against Kos.

Don't you think a win over a fighter as tough as Machida is better than wins over Brown or Faber? Doesn't Shogun's earlier success play a part? Not trashing you if you think Aldo should be ranked higher, I just want to understand the rationale?

Maybe I am forgiving Shogun too soon over the Forrest loss? But he did lose only one fight with a huge number of external issues surrounding it, to a guy who a fight later won the LHW title.

I think to many of the detractors, Shogun doesn't move up unless someone above him loses. So, in some people's minds Shogun will never achieve #1 status unless Fedor, Anderson and GSP lose. And in a few of those people's minds, Aldo also needs to lose. And in a couple of those, it will take all four of them losing on the same night, in the same building and at the same time in the same cage with Steven Segal as the guest referee and our joke of a President commentating cage side. I'm not quite sure why some hate Shogun this much (You know who you are), but it seems to some that nothing will be enough to move him up the rankings...

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Bigs03 wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Error in my ways? The guy just knocked out Lyoto fucking Machida and was has already been ranked that high before. It was a reasonable question. You're an imbecile.

Yeah, Lyoto defended his title once in a controversial decision win Machida, you're right. Let's just put him at 1 already.

Yo this really doesn't make sense, but even if you had actually typed this as it sounded in your head I still don't think I'd follow.

Look bigs, what are you even doing man? What is your end game here? I think you misread what I said and meant, jumped the gun and are now just going down with the ship. Can't you just be civil? I just made a thread to gauge what people's opinions were on him in a p4p context after a major victory over a major p4p player in the context of his earlier career success and ranking. It was a fair question that anyone else could have asked about any number of fighters in this position. If Wanderlei Silva knocked out Anderson tomorrow I'd start that thread too. If Machida knocks out Fedor in a year I'd start that thread too, and if BJ Penn moved up and knocked out GSP we might ask that there too.

Bigs just cut it out man. I'd rather not argue with the mods anymore here, makes us all look bad. (Especially when the arguments are this oppressively stupid)

To be fair, you asked a loaded question, and I responded to it. Look at Wolf taking the high road, you've come so far.

LikesToFightGuy wrote:

I think to many of the detractors, Shogun doesn't move up unless someone above him loses. So, in some people's minds Shogun will never achieve #1 status unless Fedor, Anderson and GSP lose. And in a few of those people's minds, Aldo also needs to lose. And in a couple of those, it will take all four of them losing on the same night, in the same building and at the same time in the same cage with Steven Segal as the guest referee and our joke of a President commentating cage side. I'm not quite sure why some hate Shogun this much (You know who you are), but it seems to some that nothing will be enough to move him up the rankings...

I think in time Shogun could move up without the people above him losing. That is the benefit of fighting in the strongest WC in MMA. But atleast for the time being those fighters still have a cushion. So in the short run it will be difficult for Shogun to gain much ground on them.

LikesToFightGuy wrote:

I think to many of the detractors, Shogun doesn't move up unless someone above him loses. So, in some people's minds Shogun will never achieve #1 status unless Fedor, Anderson and GSP lose. And in a few of those people's minds, Aldo also needs to lose. And in a couple of those, it will take all four of them losing on the same night, in the same building and at the same time in the same cage with Steven Segal as the guest referee and our joke of a President commentating cage side. I'm not quite sure why some hate Shogun this much (You know who you are), but it seems to some that nothing will be enough to move him up the rankings...

I don't know who has said anything to that end, however, it is rather silly to even consider moving him above Anderson, GSP, or Fedor after having only one quality win since coming to the UFC. He's fought two perceived good fighters and technically he's 1-2 in those bouts. I'm with you that he had injuries and was out of shape, ring rust, whatever, for the reason he lost to Forest, but a loss is a loss. And I've been fairly vocal about my feeling that he won the first fight against Machida. But again, a loss is a loss.

By this logic, Chuck could come back and have one great performance and we would then shoot him back into contention for number one p4p because of what he did back in the day.

And, by the way, I never said he couldn't make it back to number one, in fact, I said I wouldn't be overly surprised if it happened. I would be somewhat surprised because the 205 division is hard to keep the belt...and I doubt he will...so from that standpoint I would be surprised. But it's not out of the question. I just think he needs to dominate for awhile, defend his belt and go on a run of defenses. Other than that I just can't justify moving him above any of the top 3.

I guess when I saw the title of this thread it just caught me off guard and it sort of seemed like someone had Shogun's nuts in his mouth. I just think it's way to premature to even have this discussion.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Don't you think a win over a fighter as tough as Machida is better than wins over Brown or Faber? Doesn't Shogun's earlier success play a part? Not trashing you if you think Aldo should be ranked higher, I just want to understand the rationale?

Maybe I am forgiving Shogun too soon over the Forrest loss? But he did lose only one fight with a huge number of external issues surrounding it, to a guy who a fight later won the LHW title.

The thing about this first sentence is that it should say Brown "and" Faber. Where both of those guys have been in peoples top 10 p4p pretty regularly before Aldo, and the Faber win was also a title defense. Though the LHW division might be more packed with names and be more competitive, Aldo finishes who is suppose to beat, and has wrecked the ones who should be competitive. Aldo's issue here is that he could run out of interesting fights and need to move elsewhere, unlike Shogun who could just sit at the top of LHW and that would be Huge. But I truly feel that Aldo could obliterate 135 and make a run at 155, which is a good sign for being a top tier p4p guy.

And I think "Shogun's earlier success" does play a part for him to be ranked at 5. Looking at his last 5 fights (UFC career) it hasn't quite been storybook. The loss to Forrest. His performance against a 45 year old wrestler (who I thought would have won the decision if the fight went 20 more seconds). The TKO of Chuck that didnt have me screaming for a title shot. The Loss to Machida (say what you will), and than a very nice outing in the rematch against Machida.

Bigs03 wrote:

LikesToFightGuy wrote:

I think to many of the detractors, Shogun doesn't move up unless someone above him loses. So, in some people's minds Shogun will never achieve #1 status unless Fedor, Anderson and GSP lose. And in a few of those people's minds, Aldo also needs to lose. And in a couple of those, it will take all four of them losing on the same night, in the same building and at the same time in the same cage with Steven Segal as the guest referee and our joke of a President commentating cage side. I'm not quite sure why some hate Shogun this much (You know who you are), but it seems to some that nothing will be enough to move him up the rankings...

I don't know who has said anything to that end, however, it is rather silly to even consider moving him above Anderson, GSP, or Fedor after having only one quality win since coming to the UFC. He's fought two perceived good fighters and technically he's 1-2 in those bouts. I'm with you that he had injuries and was out of shape, ring rust, whatever, for the reason he lost to Forest, but a loss is a loss. And I've been fairly vocal about my feeling that he won the first fight against Machida. But again, a loss is a loss.

By this logic, Chuck could come back and have one great performance and we would then shoot him back into contention for number one p4p because of what he did back in the day.

And, by the way, I never said he couldn't make it back to number one, in fact, I said I wouldn't be overly surprised if it happened. I would be somewhat surprised because the 205 division is hard to keep the belt...and I doubt he will...so from that standpoint I would be surprised. But it's not out of the question. I just think he needs to dominate for awhile, defend his belt and go on a run of defenses. Other than that I just can't justify moving him above any of the top 3.

I guess when I saw the title of this thread it just caught me off guard and it sort of seemed like someone had Shogun's nuts in his mouth. I just think it's way to premature to even have this discussion.

The Chuck example is a bit of a stretch Bigs... And I wasn't pointing a finger, but those that hate on Shogun know who they are. As we all discussed yesterday, it's not something that can happen overnight. In fact, we'll need to see another fight or two from all of the top-4 before any real debate can start up. But if GSP and Anderson do what they've been doing and Shogun wipes the floor with the winner of Shad-Page and then lil Nog... I'll have no problem launching him past those two. And if Fedor somehow loses or really struggles against Werdum and whoever is to follow (Especially considering where his current competition is in the big picture)... Shogun could find himself on the top of my (And obviously Wolf's) list inside of 18 months. Do I expect all of this to happen?... Hell no. But if it plays out that way, I'm not sure how people can argue him not being higher than #4...