Can we agree if Melendez beats Aoki that Japanese LWs are/have been overrated?

captain organic wrote:

much like jake shields.

Definitely. The funny thing is that neither of these guys fight in "the number one proving ground for fighters". How telling would it be for both guys to come to the UFC and turn into a gatekeeper?

thessy11 wrote:

I agree with Wolfy but there's no reason to discuss it because everyone seems pretty much set in their opinion. Short of a UFC cross promotion there's no way to prove it.

My reason for saying "yes" is because I feel there is more evidence pointing that direction.

Gomi is the only Japanese champion from Pride and he's 0-2 (and 1 NC he lost) outside of Japan. Aoki is the only Japanese champion in Dream and he's 1-1 in Dream title fights.

There has never been a Japanese Champion in the UFC or WEC and most Japanese fighters who have fought in those organizations have done terrible.

Gomi 0-1
Kaz Nakamura 0-2
Yoshida 2-2 (wins against an 0-2 UFC fighter and a TUF reject)
Hironaka 1-3
Takaya 0-2
Miura 2-3
Gono 1-2
Chonan 1-3
Maeda 1-2

Akiyama at 1-0 (close split decision over Belcher) and Yushin Okami are the only Japanese fighters who have had any success in the major US organizations that I can recall.

Japanese fighters rarely cut weight and usually do not have much diversity in their training. Much like some Brazilian fighters, they often have inflated records from dominating no-names in minor local promotions or being fed cans for the purpose of being built up in a tournament. When is the last time you seen BJ, Florian, Edgar, or hell even Sherk, Tyson Griffin, etc. fighting a Clay French, Todd Moore, Brian Lo-A-Njoe, David Gardner, Melchor Manibusan, Luiz Firmino, Kultar Gill, etc.? Because those are some of the guys these top Japanese fighters like Aoki, Kawajiri have fought in the last couple years. Take away the "gimme" fights a lot of the highly regarded Japanese fighters are left with pretty mediocre records.

Gono, Chonan, Gomi, and Nak were not in their primes when they fought in the UFC.

Yushin Okami and Akiyama so far are exceptions to this rule.

NinjaRua/Fan wrote:

Gono, Chonan, Gomi, and Nak were not in their primes when they fought in the UFC.

Fair enough, but then what do you consider their primes?

The closest thing Chonan had to a prime was a four fight win streak of a decision over Carlos Newton, the flying scissor heel hook on Anderson, a cut win over Roan Carneiro, and a decision over some guy I never heard of.

Nak has never won more than three fights in a row and the only time he did that was when he beat Travis Galbraith and decisions over Cyborg and the guy that kissed Herring.

Gomi had a nice 10-fight winning streak in Pride but only 3-4 of them were against upper level competition - Krazy Horse in his Pride debut, Pulver in the beginning of the end of his career, Sakurai, and Crusher.

Gono never really had a peak. He did go 8 fights without losing at one point, with wins over Andy Wang and a green Ivan Salaverry being the high points. He did beat Mousasi but Mousasi was very green at the time and Gono went 2-4 in his next 6 so that was hardly his prime.

Most of these guys were never really that good in their own promotions/country. Usually when they stepped up against better competition they stumbled and were built back up again by fighting lower-level competition. Without the wins against "wikipedia red names" as someone here likes to put it, most of these guys who are very much beloved in the world of Japanese MMA have very mediocre careers.

It's no secret that Japanese fighters struggle here.

Damn this was at like 13 when I left it, and Thessy comes in with some thunder

2 side questions

Who wins Prime Gomi or KenFlo?

How would Tibau against Aoki, Crusher and Hirota? (Don't take this to mean I think he beats them, I'm just curiious what others think)

Tibau loses to all listed in Japan, beats them all stateside

Aoki agrees.
http://www.mmamania.com/2010/4/7/1409190/shinya-aoki-it-is-certain-that-if
"Japan’s best comes to USA. This is amazing ... my technical side is evidenced by my long career. It is the same as my old fights so it does not need to be discussed. Instead, the most important point is this: ‘If Aoki loses, it is over for Japan. I love Japan and it is certain that if I lose, Japan will become a colony of US MMA. Some [fans] say that USA's MMA is the best but I do not worship U.S. MMA so this is big war to me, just like my fight against [Sengoku champion] Hirota [on New Year’s Eve]. Yes, this is a high risk, high return proposition. If I get the return, I give it to DREAM because I am a son of DREAM. The same as in the New Year's Eve fight I am thinking ‘OK, I kill you!' ... I can risk my life if needs be. I am a warrior.... I am really serious about MMA. So I do not talk about technique now, because this fight is not about technique but about instinct and heart! One tough guy will stand, another tough guy will fall. Everyone, look upon this scene."

Wolf whats your reasoning behind the home field adv? Why do u think it factors so high?

But I do disagree with it to an extent, we've been watching japanese lose in japan since the beginning.

there is also a parrallel storyline here in that gilbert carries the sf banner into this fight. With a win the sf 155ers gain a fair amount of legitimacy, and gil will help carry the other sf'ers up the divisional rankings. with a loss that same crew gets pushed into obscurity while Aoki takes the title back to japan.

I guess that helps sf get a foot hold in japan but really hurts them in the american market.

So nothing on Prime Gomi vs. KenFlo?

Fighting in the States vs. Japan advantages might get put to the test

http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=11171&zoneid=13

tolivendiewithLA wrote:

Fighting in the States vs. Japan advantages might get put to the test

http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=11171&zoneid=13

why even talk about it now? kind of takes away from this 1st fight. especially if gil wins. I understan the reasoning, fair is fair, but I feel like Aoki is given an out even b4 it starts.

Quote :

Wolf whats your reasoning behind the home field adv? Why do u think it factors so high?

But I do disagree with it to an extent, we've been watching japanese lose in japan since the beginning.

Japanese fighters are at an athletic disadvantage overall I think, but fighters like Sakuraba, Aoki, Gomi and others were only made possible by the rules in Japan, home field judging and reffing, home crowds and American jet lag.