Can we agree if Melendez beats Aoki that Japanese LWs are/have been overrated?

I know there's a mixed bag on this, some of us are on the overrated side, others think their all toss up fights outside of BJ. Anyways, your thoughts?

I vote no. I think Melendez deserves the credit for defeating Aoki should he win rather than the usual "so and so was simply overrated" talk. It strips him of the credit that is due when people talk like that which is pretty much every time somebody loses.

The Japenese LW's that have had the hype are Gomi and Aoki. I don't think Gomi was ever overrated, he's just not as good as he once was and it did not take a dip in the UFC to prove it. He had been mediocre IN Japan since the fall of PRIDE. Aoki has beaten some really good compettion over his career in Hansen (x2), JZ, Vitor, Uno, Sotriopoulous. He quickly and easily took care of Alvarez and Hirota. He's fought good competiton at higher weight classes. I think Aoki has been backing up all the hype EXCEPT for the being a match for BJ Penn hype...which is just silly...but it Melendez beats Shinya Aoki, thats a huge win for Gilbert not the verdict on if Aoki was all that good or not.

This has nothing to do with KenFlo dominating Gomi, as it's clear Gomi is at the end of his career, to Kenny's credit though, I think he'd beat prime Gomi too now.

I'll wait for some more posts before I completely reply.

Do you mean Japanese LW's as in LW's that are Japanese or do you mean all the LW's that mainly fight in Japan but are held in high regard like Hansen, JZ, Vitor, Hirota, Mach, Crusher, Gomi etc?

Weaker than I used too think.

Not to try and hijack the thread or anything but if Aoki loses to Melendez, at least we won't have to suffer through the failed argument that Aoki could give BJ Penn a challenge.

LudoCain wrote:

Not to try and hijack the thread or anything but if Aoki loses to Melendez, at least we won't have to suffer through the failed argument that Aoki could give BJ Penn a challenge.

Hellz yeah!

I think that there have been legit questions about the veracity of Japanese fighters. They tend, not always, but tend to limit what they have to learn. Kenny, BJ, Gray, Diego, etc. have accepted that they have to continue evolving as their careers progress. The Japanese have a stubborn streak that has been in existence since the Kamakura Shogunate.

KingsOwn19 wrote:

Do you mean Japanese LW's as in LW's that are Japanese or do you mean all the LW's that mainly fight in Japan but are held in high regard like Hansen, JZ, Vitor, Hirota, Mach, Crusher, Gomi etc?

Little of both I guess

To touchy a thread for people to comment in, but the vote say it all

I think it would depend on how it goes down. If gil dominates the standup and then finishes it on the ground then yeah, Aoki's rep takes a hit. But if it's a hard fought battle that goes 5 then prob not.

captain organic wrote:

I think it would depend on how it goes down. If gil dominates the standup and then finishes it on the ground then yeah, Aoki's rep takes a hit. But if it's a hard fought battle that goes 5 then prob not.

Wow great post Capt. I'll totally agree with that, +1 sir

I definitely don't see Gilbert dominating Aoki...not at all. If he does, it definitely makes Aoki look bad. I have a feeling Gilbert's gonna get subbed.

Yes if it's closer it isn't as bad, similar to what Capt. said, but still IMO a couple guys could beat Melendez in the UFC LW division, him beating Aoki, just weakens the product overseas to me.

Thats what I meant when I posed my question, if Melendez can beat Aoki impressively it would end the stupid "Aoki is the only guy who can give BJ a challenge" shit. I don't know that it would really prove if Japanese Lightweights are overrated persay. Aoki is still 1a to BJ's 1 as a pure grappler at 155. Thats got to count for something. I think if Aoki works on his standup and develops it into something special then he could be the perennial successor to BJ's Legacy in a few years.

LudoCain wrote:

Thats what I meant when I posed my question, if Melendez can beat Aoki impressively it would end the stupid "Aoki is the only guy who can give BJ a challenge" shit. I don't know that it would really prove if Japanese Lightweights are overrated persay. Aoki is still 1a to BJ's 1 as a pure grappler at 155. Thats got to count for something. I think if Aoki works on his standup and develops it into something special then he could be the perennial successor to BJ's Legacy in a few years.

I don't know why Aoki has to be 1A to BJ's 1 as a pure grappler. The clear advantage for BJ vs. Aoki would be his boxing. I'm sure a lot of the BJ homers here will throw a hissy fit but I doubt BJ would even want to go to the ground with Aoki. Not because BJ's grappling isn't on par with Aoki's, but because that is the only place that Aoki poses a legit threat to BJ. I would be more inclined to think that BJ and Aoki are both top grapplers in MMA, regardless of weight class.

It would be a literal Earth stopping moment for Aoki to translate success to a cage in the USA. In Japan this fight is a clear cut win for Aoki, in Strikeforce Melendez should be a heavy favorite. I don't know what it is, but in Japan against the same caliber of fighters, Japanese mixed martial artists can succeed, but in America they are made to look like clowns.

To the question - the premise doesn't need to be proven, because it is already iron clad fact(if amended to mean all Japanese fighters).

I say 1a to BJ's 1 simply because it's a tossup as to who would win in a pure grappling situation between them. BJ has crazy flexibility but Aoki is quick on the draw. Both are very sneaky with their subs and positioning. If they did fight yeah BJ would probably keep Aoki on his feet because theres no reason not to. But the premise of my comment was in a grappling tournament type setting I'm not sure who would win.

LudoCain wrote:

I say 1a to BJ's 1 simply because it's a tossup as to who would win in a pure grappling situation between them. BJ has crazy flexibility but Aoki is quick on the draw. Both are very sneaky with their subs and positioning. If they did fight yeah BJ would probably keep Aoki on his feet because theres no reason not to. But the premise of my comment was in a grappling tournament type setting I'm not sure who would win.

Gotcha. I think we are in agreement.

Absolutely not. How does one fighter represent an entire country?

LudoCain wrote:

Thats what I meant when I posed my question, if Melendez can beat Aoki impressively it would end the stupid "Aoki is the only guy who can give BJ a challenge" shit. I don't know that it would really prove if Japanese Lightweights are overrated persay. Aoki is still 1a to BJ's 1 as a pure grappler at 155. Thats got to count for something. I think if Aoki works on his standup and develops it into something special then he could be the perennial successor to BJ's Legacy in a few years.

What kind of idiot actually thinks this? BJ is stylistically the worst matchup for Aoki imaginable. Penn would absolutely clown stomp Aoki. Still that does not take away from Aoki's accomplishments. He arguably fought and beaten more elite LWs than BJ has.

Bigs03 wrote:

LudoCain wrote:

Thats what I meant when I posed my question, if Melendez can beat Aoki impressively it would end the stupid "Aoki is the only guy who can give BJ a challenge" shit. I don't know that it would really prove if Japanese Lightweights are overrated persay. Aoki is still 1a to BJ's 1 as a pure grappler at 155. Thats got to count for something. I think if Aoki works on his standup and develops it into something special then he could be the perennial successor to BJ's Legacy in a few years.

I don't know why Aoki has to be 1A to BJ's 1 as a pure grappler. The clear advantage for BJ vs. Aoki would be his boxing. I'm sure a lot of the BJ homers here will throw a hissy fit but I doubt BJ would even want to go to the ground with Aoki. Not because BJ's grappling isn't on par with Aoki's, but because that is the only place that Aoki poses a legit threat to BJ. I would be more inclined to think that BJ and Aoki are both top grapplers in MMA, regardless of weight class.

well having watched penn of late, I would not be surprised if Penn went to the ground with Aoki, just for the challenge. I know Penn loves to stand, but against Aoki, I could see him going for a takedown early.

but to cain's point, I don't find it likely that a guy can improve one's standup from avg to something special at this stage of his career.

captain organic wrote:

Bigs03 wrote:

LudoCain wrote:

Thats what I meant when I posed my question, if Melendez can beat Aoki impressively it would end the stupid "Aoki is the only guy who can give BJ a challenge" shit. I don't know that it would really prove if Japanese Lightweights are overrated persay. Aoki is still 1a to BJ's 1 as a pure grappler at 155. Thats got to count for something. I think if Aoki works on his standup and develops it into something special then he could be the perennial successor to BJ's Legacy in a few years.

I don't know why Aoki has to be 1A to BJ's 1 as a pure grappler. The clear advantage for BJ vs. Aoki would be his boxing. I'm sure a lot of the BJ homers here will throw a hissy fit but I doubt BJ would even want to go to the ground with Aoki. Not because BJ's grappling isn't on par with Aoki's, but because that is the only place that Aoki poses a legit threat to BJ. I would be more inclined to think that BJ and Aoki are both top grapplers in MMA, regardless of weight class.

well having watched penn of late, I would not be surprised if Penn went to the ground with Aoki, just for the challenge. I know Penn loves to stand, but against Aoki, I could see him going for a takedown early.

but to cain's point, I don't find it likely that a guy can improve one's standup from avg to something special at this stage of his career.

The crazy thing about Aoki is that he's been so successful in spite of such lackluster standup. I would argue that he doesn't really need to become an elite striker to remain an elite LW fighter. He will probably always take an occasional loss because an opponent can just overwhelm him ala Sakurai when Aoki never really got a chance to grapple before getting KTFO. But the fact that he has had such a great career beating great fighters and his standup isn't probably in the top 30 of his weight class is very impressive.

much like jake shields.

I agree with Wolfy but there's no reason to discuss it because everyone seems pretty much set in their opinion. Short of a UFC cross promotion there's no way to prove it.

My reason for saying "yes" is because I feel there is more evidence pointing that direction.

Gomi is the only Japanese champion from Pride and he's 0-2 (and 1 NC he lost) outside of Japan. Aoki is the only Japanese champion in Dream and he's 1-1 in Dream title fights.

There has never been a Japanese Champion in the UFC or WEC and most Japanese fighters who have fought in those organizations have done terrible.

Gomi 0-1
Kaz Nakamura 0-2
Yoshida 2-2 (wins against an 0-2 UFC fighter and a TUF reject)
Hironaka 1-3
Takaya 0-2
Miura 2-3
Gono 1-2
Chonan 1-3
Maeda 1-2

Akiyama at 1-0 (close split decision over Belcher) and Yushin Okami are the only Japanese fighters who have had any success in the major US organizations that I can recall.

Japanese fighters rarely cut weight and usually do not have much diversity in their training. Much like some Brazilian fighters, they often have inflated records from dominating no-names in minor local promotions or being fed cans for the purpose of being built up in a tournament. When is the last time you seen BJ, Florian, Edgar, or hell even Sherk, Tyson Griffin, etc. fighting a Clay French, Todd Moore, Brian Lo-A-Njoe, David Gardner, Melchor Manibusan, Luiz Firmino, Kultar Gill, etc.? Because those are some of the guys these top Japanese fighters like Aoki, Kawajiri have fought in the last couple years. Take away the "gimme" fights a lot of the highly regarded Japanese fighters are left with pretty mediocre records.