No Mass: Georges St. Pierre would be 'the same size' if he moved up to middleweight

bobbitt15 wrote:

freakzilla wrote:

Silva fought a Forrest that was scared shitless before the fight started and ran away as soon as it finished. He was also on a big down slope and just beat Tito by split decision. If Silva wants to test himelf at LHW he needs to fight either Jones, Evans, Rua or Rampage.

The Tito fight was after Anderson. Forrest was coming in 2-1 over his last 3 with wins over Rampage and Shogun and was handling Rashad until he got caught. That ain't no downslope. I'd venture to say he was scared shitless during the fight when he was throwing punches at someone with their hands down laughing at him, followed by getting hit with shit he didn't even see. But that's about it

I know you can't compare how one fighter fought against another, But Franklin lasted longer then Forrest against Silva, and Forrest neutralized Franklin and overpowered him, something about that fight with Silva has never sit right for me, Forrest is better then that

That thing that shouldn't sit right in his game plan, especially in hindsight. Forrest is fucking massive, the fact that he didn't come out and throw his size around is mind boggling. Especially coming from the camp of "brilliant gameplans"

The Brilliant Gameplan thing Xtreme Couture has fostered is seriously one of the great myths of MMA.

GSP would beat guys like Okami I am pretty sure. You don't go from head and shoulders above everyone who makes all contenders look like they don't belong in the same ring to a guy who would lose to Yushin Okami. Come on now yall.

bobbitt15 wrote:

freakzilla wrote:

Silva fought a Forrest that was scared shitless before the fight started and ran away as soon as it finished. He was also on a big down slope and just beat Tito by split decision. If Silva wants to test himelf at LHW he needs to fight either Jones, Evans, Rua or Rampage.

The Tito fight was after Anderson. Forrest was coming in 2-1 over his last 3 with wins over Rampage and Shogun and was handling Rashad until he got caught. That ain't no downslope. I'd venture to say he was scared shitless during the fight when he was throwing punches at someone with their hands down laughing at him, followed by getting hit with shit he didn't even see. But that's about it

I know the Tito fight was after the Anderson fight. What I was getting at was that Forrest was going through a tough patch which was proven in his fight with Tito. Also Rampage beat Forrest. Anderson has never tried to fight Evans, Rampage or Machida and now is basically pulling Jones' pants down.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

GSP would beat guys like Okami I am pretty sure. You don't go from head and shoulders above everyone who makes all contenders look like they don't belong in the same ring to a guy who would lose to Yushin Okami. Come on now yall.

I'm pretty sure GSP wouldn't be a top 5 MW. I think it would be the biggest mistake he ever made, but the good thing is he appears to realize that. He seems like a smart man.

Wouldn't be a top five MW all of a sudden? 10 pounds is worth that much? You sir, are tripping. Utterly tripping.

Guys like Okami who would have reach, size and strength on GSP would be the problem. Okami isa witch in the division. I think GSP would be top 10, but he is just simply not a MW. That would count for something.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Wouldn't be a top five MW all of a sudden? 10 pounds is worth that much? You sir, are tripping. Utterly tripping.

I just have to assume that 15lbs(185-170=15) won't make any difference? Like he will cruise just like he does at WW? I could very well be wrong, GSP could outwork the entire MW division and I'll be handed a plate of crow. But IMO facing larger opponents, who are generally stronger and hit harder, could present problems for GSP.

The sheer edge in athleticism and quickness that GSP would possess over most MWs would be enough to keep him right at the top of the division. Doubt we would see much of a downgrade at all regarding his ability to set up takedowns and double leg people. Isn't it pretty much know that grappling wise, he handled Marquardt in training?

Strength plays a factor in wrestling. Obviously you can make up for it with technique and the ability to set it up. But moving up in weight provides it's own challenges. You may have the speed advantage but the risk of eating a power shot goes up.
Let's go ahead and keep the assumptions up though and assume GSP wouldn't have the power to hurt most MW and have a harder time holding stronger fighters down like he does at WW.

The top of the MW division lacks anyone who packs much of a punch. I don't really see a whole lot of matchup issues for him among the top contenders

bobbitt15 wrote:

The top of the MW division lacks anyone who packs much of a punch. I don't really see a whole lot of matchup issues for him among the top contenders

I think even someone like Munoz could be an issue. He is fairly strong now at MW, a very solid wrestler with decent power. I'm not saying he would beat GSP just that I wouldn't assume GSP would run through him.

Maybe if GSP wasn't largely impossible to takedown and maybe if he couldn't takedown d1 champs at will at WW I could be sold that all of sudden he'd be average 15 pounds higher, but that isn't the case. He can land takedowns at will and is never ever on his back. Could Okami do such things if he squeezed down? Nope. Anyway, he is like 192 or so on fight night, so it's not like he is the worlds smallest MW anyway. With a few extra pounds he'd be a decent sized and supremely talented MW. Instantly top 3. OU for someone who never bought into the "Lesnar's extra pounds = unstoppable takedown" garbage I am shocked to see this out of you.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Maybe if GSP wasn't largely impossible to takedown and maybe if he couldn't takedown d1 champs at will at WW I could be sold that all of sudden he'd be average 15 pounds higher, but that isn't the case. He can land takedowns at will and is never ever on his back. Could Okami do such things if he squeezed down? Nope. Anyway, he is like 192 or so on fight night, so it's not like he is the worlds smallest MW anyway. With a few extra pounds he'd be a decent sized and supremely talented MW. Instantly top 3. OU for someone who never bought into the "Lesnar's extra pounds = unstoppable takedown" garbage I am shocked to see this out of you.

I'm completely shocked that you can crown him "instantly top 3" at MW. GSP has great wrestling but you are starting to sound like "GSP SMASH!", he is far from invincible. GSP didn't exactly dominate the wrestling vs Kos the last time around. Sure he did what he needed to do and beat the shit out of Kos. But I think GSP's wrestling has been given God-like status and you guys keep putting unfair expectations on GSP.
I think many of you would be in for a rude awakening with GSP at MW. Thankfully though like I said GSP is a smart man and doesn't appear eager to make the move.
I didn't realize if you weren't top 5 that was considered average? There is no doubt it would be more difficult for GSP to hold down guys that are 15lbs bigger on a regular basis. I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say taking down a stronger man is tougher. Not impossible by any means but it isn't the same. He would not cruise right through the MW division, but anyone that expects him too is being unfair to GSP with unrealistic expectations. You are putting the pussy on a pedestal. The Great Pussalyith.(no I'm not calling GSP a pussy)

I think only Anderson Silva and Chael Sonnen beat GSP at 185.

Demanding fighters go out of their comfort zone for some sort of "greater good" is just selfish and extremely unfair IMO. If you can't love GSP for the dominate Champion he is and be impressed by the continued run he is having at WW then that is a you problem and GSP doesn't owe you shit. The expectations for that man these days is getting out of control.

Why is it that GSP doesn't seem overjoyed about moving to MW? Hell he has all but put the breaks on that saying he thinks there are other ways to get a fight with Spider done. Why is GSP so concerned about the size difference but all knowing fans think of it as a non issue? If you think it's business as usual for GSP you simply are not being realistic.
All I want from GSP as the WW Champion is to be as active as possible and fight the best WW the UFC can find.

MW isn't filled with murderers dude. He is nearly unstoppable anyway. His takedown and takedown defense stats are both around 90%. This is against guys like Kos, Fitch, Penn, Hughes and Alves. Jake Shields beat Yushin Okami. GSP could and he could do it easily.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

MW isn't filled with murderers dude. He is nearly unstoppable anyway. His takedown and takedown defense stats are both around 90%. This is against guys like Kos, Fitch, Penn, Hughes and Alves. Jake Shields beat Yushin Okami. GSP could and he could do it easily.

It's really a shame how fans can have such extreme expectations for GSP. Luckily both GSP and Greg Jackson are smart guys and they atleast appear to not be buckling to the pressure. I think you are being very optimistic and unrealistic about what jumping up in weight really means. Obviously GSP is aware of this, even if you yourself are not.

OU wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

MW isn't filled with murderers dude. He is nearly unstoppable anyway. His takedown and takedown defense stats are both around 90%. This is against guys like Kos, Fitch, Penn, Hughes and Alves. Jake Shields beat Yushin Okami. GSP could and he could do it easily.

It's really a shame how fans can have such extreme expectations for GSP. Luckily both GSP and Greg Jackson are smart guys and they atleast appear to not be buckling to the pressure. I think you are being very optimistic and unrealistic about what jumping up in weight really means. Obviously GSP is aware of this, even if you yourself are not.

+1

Also let me address the Yushin Okami statement. If Jake and Okami fought at MW later this year I would pick Okami. It was a close fight when they fought and Okami was only like 24 years old. Also you know better then you use MMAth.

Okami would lose to Shields or St. Pierre. Be realistic OU. ATG to middle of the pack? Naw dude. I aint buying it. GSP's victories are predicated on his speed and skill as much as his strength. He'd retain all of that. This is a guy who is known for out wrestling guys like Evans and Nate in the gym.

I don't believe the gym talk. And is Marquardt really that great of a wrestler? I haven't seen it in a fight in a long time.

Chael has said that Yushin was the strongest guy he's faced.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Okami would lose to Shields or St. Pierre. Be realistic OU. ATG to middle of the pack? Naw dude. I aint buying it. GSP's victories are predicated on his speed and skill as much as his strength. He'd retain all of that. This is a guy who is known for out wrestling guys like Evans and Nate in the gym.

There you go making assumptions again. Nothing you said is based on fact. Why can't Okami avenge a loss from 06? A loss that was a majority dec. when Okami was only 24 years old. I think Okami has refined his game plan and execution over the years, he has proven to be a tough fight for just about anyone.
GSP will have the speed but he won't have the same strength ADVANTAGE he has at WW. That is just common sense. GSP is best at WW, that is the weight that allows him to optimize his skills. You really don't know the effects that adding weight would have, just like his camp is fully aware of. You don't find it odd that all the smart people around GSP are fully aware of the differences and challenges he would face at MW but you yourself don't seem to acknowledge it? Sorry but I think GSP and his camp are much more aware of the situation then you are. He isn't exactly jumping for joy at the thought of moving up in weight, don't you think there is a reason for that?

So pick Frankie Edgar against Cain Velasquez if speed is everything. Size is far, far more important.