My thoughts on the "wrestler problem" in MMA

There is a problem with point grubbing and stalling in MMA, just a small problem.


It polices itself out though through paydays, popularity and title shots. Fitch st8 got his shot taken away from him.

I'm suprised this has turned into such a big subject where the fighters are all adding their opinion...but i think this may be a good thing in the long run that this topic is getting some attention, although i think people are looking at it the wrong way.

I just want them to score all the grappling fairly. It's not so much a wrestler problem as it's a judging problem. Sometimes it's two BJJ guys in this situation it's just the judges seem to only know what would be points in wrestling but not points in more foriegn. less mainstream grappling like BJJ.

I agree with chorky. If the person on top is the one getting hit(even if the strikes are weak which in the case of Mousasi and Lawal, were not weak) or obviously the one truly on the defensive more then the guy on the bottom we need judges who can spot that. Neer-Pellegrino for example. Neer clearly thought he won that fight because Pellegrino didnt do shit except sit in his guard the entire match fighting off submissions. Granted Neer never truly threatened but if it looked like anybody was threatening to finish the fight the entire time, it was Neer and Pellegrino just sat in his guard knowing that if he didnt get subbed that ineffectively being on top would win him the fight.

I think the person in the guard is only in the advantage if they are laying Fedor vs. Kohsaka II type leather from the guard but in most cases, the guy holding the guard is the one in control....they arent always trying to get back to their feet unless they arent competent guard player they are looking for an opening for a sweep or submission from the guard. A lot of times they stalemate where the guy on top is defending well and the man holding the guard is not getting anything done, but i think that should be considered a stalemate and they should be stood up, and i think if somebody goes for a takedown and does not get it they should not be allowed to stall for a minute while gaining points for going for the takedown. It should be considered a stalemate and they should be broken apart but you see guys get points for stalling after failed takedown attempts.

I say if a wrestler is considered to be scoring points pressing somebody against the cage doing NOTHING but stalling, then somebody holding a guard and underhooks should be able to do the same and have it scored properly in their favor becuase in their martial art, that is an advantage and they are actually the one with the most openings to win the fight. Even though that would be considered stalling as well. All of wrestlings advantages seem to carry over to MMA to the judges but almost none of BJJ's does except for the finish.

GolbeZ wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

You can't please the fans all the time and that is the only issue here. A lot of people think wrestling is boring. But so is a 3-6 football game. Just like in football some teams win ugly. Not every team is Texas Tech and Georgia Tech with flashy high scoring teams. Grinding out a win in any sport can be hard to watch. But just like in any sport a win is a win. Are you going to complain if OU wins the National Championship on a ugly grind it out 3-0 win?

The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there. If the guy is just lying there stand them up and make them do something. Its a fight not a nap. In football every play you have excitement no matter what.

Examples please.

How bout Guida vs Diaz. Or any of Kondrad's fights. Dude's get takedown and then stall.
Now we did see in Grabowski's 1st rnd match an example of judges giving the rnds to the more active bottom fighter, but too often(Guida vs Diaz) the judges score control higher then damage.

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

You can't please the fans all the time and that is the only issue here. A lot of people think wrestling is boring. But so is a 3-6 football game. Just like in football some teams win ugly. Not every team is Texas Tech and Georgia Tech with flashy high scoring teams. Grinding out a win in any sport can be hard to watch. But just like in any sport a win is a win. Are you going to complain if OU wins the National Championship on a ugly grind it out 3-0 win?

But we have seen numerous rule changes in football whose intentions are to increase offense.

Quote :

How bout Guida vs Diaz. Or any of Kondrad's fights. Dude's get takedown and then stall.
Now we did see in Grabowski's 1st rnd match an example of judges giving the rnds to the more active bottom fighter, but too often(Guida vs Diaz) the judges score control higher then damage.

Well, a toothless top game is a signature of all deathclutch fighters. Imagine if Lesnar didn't have the muscle and build to be somewhat damaging with short hammerfists. Good god.

But what you're focusing on is rarities in the sport. Konrad winning the Bellator tournament will make him less marketable to big promotions fighting that way.

The Grabowski fight was a victory for MMA judges. No one wrote a blog about that though.

bobbitt15 wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

GolbeZ wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

You can't please the fans all the time and that is the only issue here. A lot of people think wrestling is boring. But so is a 3-6 football game. Just like in football some teams win ugly. Not every team is Texas Tech and Georgia Tech with flashy high scoring teams. Grinding out a win in any sport can be hard to watch. But just like in any sport a win is a win. Are you going to complain if OU wins the National Championship on a ugly grind it out 3-0 win?

The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there. If the guy is just lying there stand them up and make them do something. Its a fight not a nap. In football every play you have excitement no matter what.

Examples please.

Anytime GSP fights. Maynard has done it before. I hate to say it because I really like MMA and the UFC but sometimes the wrestling is boring. I dont mind wrestiling with guys like Lesner who go in there take you down and beat your ass. But the guys who just hold you down trying to get a decision is boring.

GSP doesn't lay on anybody. He passes guard like 20 fuckin times a round. Just because he doesn't deal out a huge amount of damage doesn't mean he's laying on peopel

Hey like I said I am just an average fan of MMA. I dont know as much as a lot of you guys but what it looks like to me is him lying on top of someone not striking and not trying any subs. So what is he doing? Seriously I really dont get what he is trying to do. Either way what he is doing bores the shit out of me. His last two fights put me to sleep.

Yeah, GSP is not a lay n pray fighter. I don't consider a guy like GSP or recently Ben Askren one who stalls or LnP's when they are contantly transistioning to better and more advantagous positions. Jake Shields is kind of getting an unfair rep as one too when he is constantly improving his positions to more dominant positions improving his chances for submissions.

captain organic wrote:

GolbeZ wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

You can't please the fans all the time and that is the only issue here. A lot of people think wrestling is boring. But so is a 3-6 football game. Just like in football some teams win ugly. Not every team is Texas Tech and Georgia Tech with flashy high scoring teams. Grinding out a win in any sport can be hard to watch. But just like in any sport a win is a win. Are you going to complain if OU wins the National Championship on a ugly grind it out 3-0 win?

The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there. If the guy is just lying there stand them up and make them do something. Its a fight not a nap. In football every play you have excitement no matter what.

Examples please.

How bout Guida vs Diaz. Or any of Kondrad's fights. Dude's get takedown and then stall.
Now we did see in Grabowski's 1st rnd match an example of judges giving the rnds to the more active bottom fighter, but too often(Guida vs Diaz) the judges score control higher then damage.

I was asking for examples from soonermark.. I wanted to see who he said .. in which his examples are wrong. I can name a bunch of fights that I thought was ridiculous .. but the bottom line is that dude probably should get his ass in the gym and work on some TDD ..

and like wolf said.. if there are fighters out there that are willing to win this way .. dont be expecting title shots and fighting on the main card any time soon.

I wonder how many of you wish Sonnen would have just laid on top of Spider instead of staying active in that last round.

GolbeZ wrote:

captain organic wrote:

GolbeZ wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

You can't please the fans all the time and that is the only issue here. A lot of people think wrestling is boring. But so is a 3-6 football game. Just like in football some teams win ugly. Not every team is Texas Tech and Georgia Tech with flashy high scoring teams. Grinding out a win in any sport can be hard to watch. But just like in any sport a win is a win. Are you going to complain if OU wins the National Championship on a ugly grind it out 3-0 win?

The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there. If the guy is just lying there stand them up and make them do something. Its a fight not a nap. In football every play you have excitement no matter what.

Examples please.

How bout Guida vs Diaz. Or any of Kondrad's fights. Dude's get takedown and then stall.
Now we did see in Grabowski's 1st rnd match an example of judges giving the rnds to the more active bottom fighter, but too often(Guida vs Diaz) the judges score control higher then damage.

I was asking for examples from soonermark.. I wanted to see who he said .. in which his examples are wrong. I can name a bunch of fights that I thought was ridiculous .. but the bottom line is that dude probably should get his ass in the gym and work on some TDD ..

and like wolf said.. if there are fighters out there that are willing to win this way .. dont be expecting title shots and fighting on the main card any time soon.

I wonder how many of you wish Sonnen would have just laid on top of Spider instead of staying active in that last round.

I wonder why you think I am wrong. No one I know likes to watch GSP fight. He is boring as hell. My cousin was a wrestler in school and even he said he will never watch another GSP fight because he is boring as hell. You guys might find it exciting to watch a guy lay on top of another guy but the average fan like me does not.

soonermark890 wrote:

GolbeZ wrote:

captain organic wrote:

GolbeZ wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

You can't please the fans all the time and that is the only issue here. A lot of people think wrestling is boring. But so is a 3-6 football game. Just like in football some teams win ugly. Not every team is Texas Tech and Georgia Tech with flashy high scoring teams. Grinding out a win in any sport can be hard to watch. But just like in any sport a win is a win. Are you going to complain if OU wins the National Championship on a ugly grind it out 3-0 win?

The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there. If the guy is just lying there stand them up and make them do something. Its a fight not a nap. In football every play you have excitement no matter what.

Examples please.

How bout Guida vs Diaz. Or any of Kondrad's fights. Dude's get takedown and then stall.
Now we did see in Grabowski's 1st rnd match an example of judges giving the rnds to the more active bottom fighter, but too often(Guida vs Diaz) the judges score control higher then damage.

I was asking for examples from soonermark.. I wanted to see who he said .. in which his examples are wrong. I can name a bunch of fights that I thought was ridiculous .. but the bottom line is that dude probably should get his ass in the gym and work on some TDD ..

and like wolf said.. if there are fighters out there that are willing to win this way .. dont be expecting title shots and fighting on the main card any time soon.

I wonder how many of you wish Sonnen would have just laid on top of Spider instead of staying active in that last round.

I wonder why you think I am wrong. No one I know likes to watch GSP fight. He is boring as hell. My cousin was a wrestler in school and even he said he will never watch another GSP fight because he is boring as hell. You guys might find it exciting to watch a guy lay on top of another guy but the average fan like me does not.

was the debate about what we thought was boring or not?

SoonerMark: The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there
GolbeZ: Examples please.
SoonerMark: GSP and Gray

wrong.

I am fully aware you think MMA is boring.

Soonermark, how many of GSP's fights have you actually watched? He has run the gauntlet of the WW division, every fight he has is against the best in the world and he dominates them. He beat BJ Penn to a freakin pulp and probably should've taken Hardy's arm home as a souvenir. It's a safe bet that Serra was pissing blood for a week after the knees he took from GSP to stop the fight.

I definitely think you're way off the mark about GSP.

As far as the wrestling "problem" in MMA...there isn't one. The only problem is with scoring and reffing. Refs should be better educated on when NOT to stand up a fight. Far to often I see fights getting stood up when one of the fighters is improving position or setting up a sub attempt. Judges need to be better educated on how to score strikes and sub attempts off their back.

Just because Dan Hardy cries about it doesn't make it a problem.

If Hardy tapped sooner says GSP is his favorite fighter. The lack of a finish in a one sided beatdown as such made me question GSP's finishing ability too, but to say he is flat out boring? Stop it yo.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Quote :

How bout Guida vs Diaz. Or any of Kondrad's fights. Dude's get takedown and then stall.
Now we did see in Grabowski's 1st rnd match an example of judges giving the rnds to the more active bottom fighter, but too often(Guida vs Diaz) the judges score control higher then damage.

Well, a toothless top game is a signature of all deathclutch fighters. Imagine if Lesnar didn't have the muscle and build to be somewhat damaging with short hammerfists. Good god.

But what you're focusing on is rarities in the sport. Konrad winning the Bellator tournament will make him less marketable to big promotions fighting that way.

The Grabowski fight was a victory for MMA judges. No one wrote a blog about that though.

Jordan Breen gave a huge rant about how awesome it was that the Grabowski fight as well as the Alexey Oleinik vs. Mike Hayes were scored properly. He points out that the judges actually do seem to be getting better at judging fights on the bottom and that actually, the biggest judging issues now is from not being able to see who is landing cleaner shots standing (Think Penn/Edgar 1 and Korean Zombie/Garcia).

Does anyone else find it weird that this discussion was caused because Paul Daley and Dan Hardy were mad that one of their teammates was beaten by Nik Lentz of all people? And I still don't understand their argument. What did Winner do in that fight? Less than Lentz did.

Bigs03 wrote:

Soonermark, how many of GSP's fights have you actually watched? He has run the gauntlet of the WW division, every fight he has is against the best in the world and he dominates them. He beat BJ Penn to a freakin pulp and probably should've taken Hardy's arm home as a souvenir. It's a safe bet that Serra was pissing blood for a week after the knees he took from GSP to stop the fight.

I definitely think you're way off the mark about GSP.

The last really good fight I have seen GSP in was the BJ Penn fight. His last 2 fights were snooze fests.

GolbeZ wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

GolbeZ wrote:

captain organic wrote:

GolbeZ wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

You can't please the fans all the time and that is the only issue here. A lot of people think wrestling is boring. But so is a 3-6 football game. Just like in football some teams win ugly. Not every team is Texas Tech and Georgia Tech with flashy high scoring teams. Grinding out a win in any sport can be hard to watch. But just like in any sport a win is a win. Are you going to complain if OU wins the National Championship on a ugly grind it out 3-0 win?

The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there. If the guy is just lying there stand them up and make them do something. Its a fight not a nap. In football every play you have excitement no matter what.

Examples please.

How bout Guida vs Diaz. Or any of Kondrad's fights. Dude's get takedown and then stall.
Now we did see in Grabowski's 1st rnd match an example of judges giving the rnds to the more active bottom fighter, but too often(Guida vs Diaz) the judges score control higher then damage.

I was asking for examples from soonermark.. I wanted to see who he said .. in which his examples are wrong. I can name a bunch of fights that I thought was ridiculous .. but the bottom line is that dude probably should get his ass in the gym and work on some TDD ..

and like wolf said.. if there are fighters out there that are willing to win this way .. dont be expecting title shots and fighting on the main card any time soon.

I wonder how many of you wish Sonnen would have just laid on top of Spider instead of staying active in that last round.

I wonder why you think I am wrong. No one I know likes to watch GSP fight. He is boring as hell. My cousin was a wrestler in school and even he said he will never watch another GSP fight because he is boring as hell. You guys might find it exciting to watch a guy lay on top of another guy but the average fan like me does not.

was the debate about what we thought was boring or not?

SoonerMark: The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there
GolbeZ: Examples please.
SoonerMark: GSP and Gray

wrong.

GSP has done it. Gray did it in his last fight. Also I dont find MMA boring BTW just some fighters. This is why I avoid the MMA board. I say a fighter is boring in a thread were you guys are talking about people being boring and you get all defensive. I know GSP is a master at what he does and is by far the most dominate WW in the world but that doesnt make him exciting does it? His last two fights sucked plain and simple.

killerofchicken wrote:

watching Andre Winner vs Nik Lentz was a snooze fest, and that was tx to Lentz

Actually it was thanks to Winner just clutching on for dear life anytime he hit the mat.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

If Hardy tapped sooner says GSP is his favorite fighter. The lack of a finish in a one sided beatdown as such made me question GSP's finishing ability too, but to say he is flat out boring? Stop it yo.

No I never really have liked GSP. To me he is the Floyd Mayweather of MMA. He is the best and shows it but I fall to sleep watching him.

soonermark890 wrote:

GolbeZ wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

GolbeZ wrote:

captain organic wrote:

GolbeZ wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

You can't please the fans all the time and that is the only issue here. A lot of people think wrestling is boring. But so is a 3-6 football game. Just like in football some teams win ugly. Not every team is Texas Tech and Georgia Tech with flashy high scoring teams. Grinding out a win in any sport can be hard to watch. But just like in any sport a win is a win. Are you going to complain if OU wins the National Championship on a ugly grind it out 3-0 win?

The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there. If the guy is just lying there stand them up and make them do something. Its a fight not a nap. In football every play you have excitement no matter what.

Examples please.

How bout Guida vs Diaz. Or any of Kondrad's fights. Dude's get takedown and then stall.
Now we did see in Grabowski's 1st rnd match an example of judges giving the rnds to the more active bottom fighter, but too often(Guida vs Diaz) the judges score control higher then damage.

I was asking for examples from soonermark.. I wanted to see who he said .. in which his examples are wrong. I can name a bunch of fights that I thought was ridiculous .. but the bottom line is that dude probably should get his ass in the gym and work on some TDD ..

and like wolf said.. if there are fighters out there that are willing to win this way .. dont be expecting title shots and fighting on the main card any time soon.

I wonder how many of you wish Sonnen would have just laid on top of Spider instead of staying active in that last round.

I wonder why you think I am wrong. No one I know likes to watch GSP fight. He is boring as hell. My cousin was a wrestler in school and even he said he will never watch another GSP fight because he is boring as hell. You guys might find it exciting to watch a guy lay on top of another guy but the average fan like me does not.

was the debate about what we thought was boring or not?

SoonerMark: The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there
GolbeZ: Examples please.
SoonerMark: GSP and Gray

wrong.

GSP has done it. Gray did it in his last fight. Also I dont find MMA boring BTW just some fighters. This is why I avoid the MMA board. I say a fighter is boring in a thread were you guys are talking about people being boring and you get all defensive. I know GSP is a master at what he does and is by far the most dominate WW in the world but that doesnt make him exciting does it? His last two fights sucked plain and simple.

GSP doesn't just lay on people.. when did I say you were wrong about thinking GSP is boring? Thats fine if you think that, I dont even like GSP myself, I have 3 WW listed in my favorites (not GSP) and one of them is fighting him next. And I just pointed out that I am quite aware that you would prefer the fights to stay standing, so in a sense you find MMA boring.

I agree with Ninja. GSP is a very active fighter, though he has been having issues finishing fighters lately. Regardless, there is a difference between LNP and GNP.

Don't feel like going through all this, so just skimmed the last page

GSP doesn't LnP, he holds position sometimes but is constently inflicting damage, the Thiago fight is a good example, didn't seem as though he was doing much, until you saw Thiago's face. Also in the Hardy fight he tried multiple sub attempts, but GSP isn't Aoki, you could see he felt there was no reason to break Hardy's arm.


I do like the GSP/FMjr comparison, I could see it, but GSP is very respectful and not a compete douche bag

Chork what's with the "of all people" with Lentz? he may not be exciting but is a solid fighter, got to love the Carney.

In terms of a wrestling problem....there isn't one, wrestlers are going to wrestle and fight to thire strengths. Could there be some changes made in the rules/judging? sure. The most important thing is to get more MMA educated judges in the first place. Maybe draw out a better points system for MMA. Don't really feel like writing an essay about all potential changes but off the top of my head, more credit to fighters subs attempts, but with that has to go sub defense, not automatically giving the guy on top more credit if the guy on the bottom is more active, though in the Diego/Guida fight I think Diego did, and so on, most of the rest which you guys already are thinking or mentioned.

Andrew the Raider King wrote:

I agree with Ninja. GSP is a very active fighter, though he has been having issues finishing fighters lately. Regardless, there is a difference between LNP and GNP.

Problem is his last two fights have been a lot of G and NO P.

Andrew the Raider King wrote:

I agree with Ninja. GSP is a very active fighter, though he has been having issues finishing fighters lately. Regardless, there is a difference between LNP and GNP.

Ninja hasn't said anything in this thread...