My thoughts on the "wrestler problem" in MMA

Lately, there's been a lot of complaining from fans and fighters about wrestlers dominating the sport. The claim is that they're too boring, and don't come to fight. There are solutions offered, such as yellow cards, point deductions, etc. I understand people want fights to be exciting, but wrestling is a legitimate martial art, and takedowns are a legitimate way to show effective grappling and cage control. Adding penalties seems like a silly way to fix the problem. Also, we have to remember, there are effective ways to fight off of your back. You can strike from your back. You can submit fighters from your back. There are sweeps that can be performed. Why are we complaining about Jon Fitch laying on top of people instead of complaining about Jacob Volkmann not knowing how to fight off his back and trying to hold Fitch in a defensive guard? Which brings me to the best solution I can think of. It keeps the purity of the sport, as well as gets the fights more active on the ground. Take away the ability for the ref to stand the fight up. It seems counter-intuitive, but think about it. You won't have people holding defensive guards hoping for the stand up. In order to win after having been taken down a fighter has to either fight or work to stand hisself up. There wouldn't be any reason to hold a defensive guard. Now, in order for this to work, you'd have to have judges who understand that a fighter working for submissions, sweeps, and striking from the bottom is being effective, but this seems like a good way to keep decent action on the floor.

Take the judge out of the fight and make the fighters earn the stnd ups. If you don't want to be held down, then get up and do someting. I am still for the yellow card either way. Refs know what is going on.

I don't think there is a wrestler problem in mma, I think there's a cry baby problem in mma. I'm sick of seeing world class bjj guys complain about someone putting them on there backs! Are you fucking serious if I was you I'd beg people to take me down!

If you need the ref to help get a guy off of you, isn't that a you problem? Excuse me Mr.Referee, can you please help me get up off my back?

I got an answer for the wrestlers problem it's called offensive bjj and Kenflo or Gegard type striking from your back. Problem solved

MMAEYES wrote:

I got an answer for the wrestlers problem it's called offensive bjj and Kenflo or Gegard type striking from your back. Problem solved

Even if the person on his back causes more damage the judges see the guy on top winning... no homo

killerofchicken wrote:

MMAEYES wrote:

I got an answer for the wrestlers problem it's called offensive bjj and Kenflo or Gegard type striking from your back. Problem solved

Even if the person on his back causes more damage the judges see the guy on top winning... no homo

This is true so I guess untill the judges get more educated the answer is offensive bjj.

Yeah, until judges properly score a round like the first one of the Mousasi vs. Lawal fight, I can't blame fighters for not wanting to strike from the bottom. But seriously, if you can't get up, why should a referee do it for you?

killerofchicken wrote:

MMAEYES wrote:

I got an answer for the wrestlers problem it's called offensive bjj and Kenflo or Gegard type striking from your back. Problem solved

Even if the person on his back causes more damage the judges see the guy on top winning... no homo

How often does this actually happen? Please reference a few recent fights where the bottom fighter was clearly winning and lost the round. Omit Mousassi vs. Mo because even if you gave round 1 to Gegard, he would still lose the fight by all accounts.

Look. When Chael fought Silva, the reason the ref didn't step in and stand them up is because Sonnen was actively kicking Silva's ass. The Gray Maynard's of the world tend to try the "tie them up and hold them down method" which stinks up the fight.

The biggest problem for the BJJ guys is judges don't understand BJJ and what the fighter is attempting to do. On the other hand, guys like Chris Leben, Diego Sanchez, etc. fight like hell off their backs and score a lot of points that way.

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

soonermark890 wrote:

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

You can't please the fans all the time and that is the only issue here. A lot of people think wrestling is boring. But so is a 3-6 football game. Just like in football some teams win ugly. Not every team is Texas Tech and Georgia Tech with flashy high scoring teams. Grinding out a win in any sport can be hard to watch. But just like in any sport a win is a win. Are you going to complain if OU wins the National Championship on a ugly grind it out 3-0 win?

Andrew the Raider King wrote:

The biggest problem for the BJJ guys is judges don't understand BJJ

That's true but still when a guy spends the whole round attempting subs and sweeps while the wrestler does nothing but defend the sub and sweeps the judges understand that the bjj guy is controlling the fight that's why I say offensive bjj is the answer to the dominant wrestler because even if you can't finish the sub judges are able to see your controlling the fight. The downside is you can gas yourself out attempting all those subs and sweeps or you can get reversed but its better than just laying there holding down on your opponents head looking up at the camera or ref like "this is doing nothing" for a whole round.

jimbojones1950 wrote:

killerofchicken wrote:

MMAEYES wrote:

I got an answer for the wrestlers problem it's called offensive bjj and Kenflo or Gegard type striking from your back. Problem solved

Even if the person on his back causes more damage the judges see the guy on top winning... no homo

How often does this actually happen? Please reference a few recent fights where the bottom fighter was clearly winning and lost the round. Omit Mousassi vs. Mo because even if you gave round 1 to Gegard, he would still lose the fight by all accounts.

Condit vs Kampmann
Condit vs MacDonald

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

You can't please the fans all the time and that is the only issue here. A lot of people think wrestling is boring. But so is a 3-6 football game. Just like in football some teams win ugly. Not every team is Texas Tech and Georgia Tech with flashy high scoring teams. Grinding out a win in any sport can be hard to watch. But just like in any sport a win is a win. Are you going to complain if OU wins the National Championship on a ugly grind it out 3-0 win?

The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there. If the guy is just lying there stand them up and make them do something. Its a fight not a nap. In football every play you have excitement no matter what.

Marquart weighs in on the subject:
http://www.mmamania.com/2010/9/13/1686007/nate-marquardt-if-you-have-a

Quote :

"I think it's a wrong mentality. You know, when I started in Mixed Martial Arts, when I first started watching it, the Jiu-Jitsu guys were beating everyone. So anyone who had a good Jiu-Jitsu would be able to take them down, to submit them or punch them on the ground and win the fight. From there, it went to guys who can stop the takedown, and get a knockout. Fighters like Chuck Liddell. Fighters like him were dominating the sport. So lately the wrestlers brought it back a little. I think it's the thing in Mixed Martial Arts, that sometimes the grapplers or the wrestlers are going to have an advantage, and sometimes it's the strikers. The way to keep yourself on the top of the game, is to be well-rounded. Not to neglect any part of your game. If you have a problem with guys taking you down, you have to defend the takedown and learn how to wrestle."

Quote :

I don't think there is a wrestler problem in mma, I think there's a cry baby problem in mma. I'm sick of seeing world class bjj guys complain about someone putting them on there backs! Are you fucking serious if I was you I'd beg people to take me down!

This. The occasional fight will be boring, like Maynard who is still actively learning the other skills in a division where everyone is much faster and better at striking and BJJ than in higher weight classes. But he doesn't actively try to be boring. I disagree on that. His boxing game is so much better, as is his BJJ.

And Nate the Great is dead on, every few years there is a new evolution in MMA skills and strategy.

Lately it's been an increase in wrestlers, but also other simultaneous evolutions have been in the inclusion of BOXING(not kickboxing or MT) into the fight game - the art of hand striking, also the inclusion of karate ideas. Overall there has been a movement toward more defensive stand up brought from both the boxing and karate influence.

You can see this in both karate/defensive boxing fighters like Anderson, BJ Penn, GSP, Machida and in dodge and dance boxers like Edgar and Cruz. Some people argue there are two distinct styles here.

We will have to hold a brutal hard line when it comes to fans who are angry at the skill and resulting decline in KO % with the increase in stand up defensive techniques. Not everyone is going to wade in looking for the home run shot. Chuck Liddell was great, but he can barely string a sentence together, and falling acorns are risks to his consciousness at this stage.

soonermark890 wrote:

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

You can't please the fans all the time and that is the only issue here. A lot of people think wrestling is boring. But so is a 3-6 football game. Just like in football some teams win ugly. Not every team is Texas Tech and Georgia Tech with flashy high scoring teams. Grinding out a win in any sport can be hard to watch. But just like in any sport a win is a win. Are you going to complain if OU wins the National Championship on a ugly grind it out 3-0 win?

The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there. If the guy is just lying there stand them up and make them do something. Its a fight not a nap. In football every play you have excitement no matter what.

Examples please.

GolbeZ wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

You can't please the fans all the time and that is the only issue here. A lot of people think wrestling is boring. But so is a 3-6 football game. Just like in football some teams win ugly. Not every team is Texas Tech and Georgia Tech with flashy high scoring teams. Grinding out a win in any sport can be hard to watch. But just like in any sport a win is a win. Are you going to complain if OU wins the National Championship on a ugly grind it out 3-0 win?

The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there. If the guy is just lying there stand them up and make them do something. Its a fight not a nap. In football every play you have excitement no matter what.

Examples please.

Anytime GSP fights. Maynard has done it before. I hate to say it because I really like MMA and the UFC but sometimes the wrestling is boring. I dont mind wrestiling with guys like Lesner who go in there take you down and beat your ass. But the guys who just hold you down trying to get a decision is boring.

watching Andre Winner vs Nik Lentz was a snooze fest, and that was tx to Lentz

The GSP thing is flat out wrong, and Maynard doesn't try to point grub, he fights smart. Not every LW wrestler is going to be a knockout king, green name.

I hate GSP but I still disagree with any statement comparing GSP's fighting to lay n pray.

soonermark890 wrote:

GolbeZ wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Ok I know I am not the most knowledgeable MMA fan but to me the wrestling is a little bit of a problem when you are talking about guys like Maynard and GSP. Its boring to the average fan. That to me can turn people off of the sport and thats not what you want. All you have to do is educate the ref on when to stand them back up. Thats all.

You can't please the fans all the time and that is the only issue here. A lot of people think wrestling is boring. But so is a 3-6 football game. Just like in football some teams win ugly. Not every team is Texas Tech and Georgia Tech with flashy high scoring teams. Grinding out a win in any sport can be hard to watch. But just like in any sport a win is a win. Are you going to complain if OU wins the National Championship on a ugly grind it out 3-0 win?

The difference is that in MMA sometimes nothing is going on. They are just lying there. If the guy is just lying there stand them up and make them do something. Its a fight not a nap. In football every play you have excitement no matter what.

Examples please.

Anytime GSP fights. Maynard has done it before. I hate to say it because I really like MMA and the UFC but sometimes the wrestling is boring. I dont mind wrestiling with guys like Lesner who go in there take you down and beat your ass. But the guys who just hold you down trying to get a decision is boring.

GSP doesn't lay on anybody. He passes guard like 20 fuckin times a round. Just because he doesn't deal out a huge amount of damage doesn't mean he's laying on peopel

I think most people just don't care about whats dominant, they want to see what they want to see, which is discouraging. Just food for thought; when you complain that guys are "laying there" or "so what he got a takedown," you sound the same as someone saying "who wants to watch all that rolling on the ground stuff, thats not fighting" in reference to bjj, etc. True martial artists and martial arts fans do not disparage other styles or complain about them, they adapt to beat them.