Moderate Islam

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Quote :

The idea that the creation of Israel is what set off Islamic Fundamentalism is silly.

How so? I am not saying Islamic fundamentalism wouldn't exist, but would it have a voice? Hardly. How many wars have Israel and the middle east engaged in again? Was the US the Great Satan before Israel? Those are not rhetorical.


Also, considering it's set off a considerable amount of Christian fundamentalism, why not Islamic?



Marble, in order to engage in this discussion, I would like to know your religious views on Israel. Please answer this question.

I have no religous views on Israel. I't also irrelevant.

In the US religious Christian fundamentalism predates the creation of Israel by at least a century. Read up on the first and second Great Awakenings.

OF COURSE Islamic fundamentalism would have a voice. Wahhabism is funded by the petrodollars flowing into Saudi Arabia. I'ts the single most well funded religoius movement in history. Far moreso than the Catholic Church ever was.

I am specifically speaking to interventionist dispensationalists who believe our babble over there is God's work because the blooms have returned to the fig tree etc.

Do you see Israel's reformation as prophecy?


You're being foolish if you think the ME would be the same without Israel.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

I am specifically speaking to interventionist dispensationalists who believe our babble over there is God's work because the blooms have returned to the fig tree etc.

Do you see Israel's reformation as prophecy?


You're being foolish if you think the ME would be the same without Israel.

Asked and answered. Want to go talk to those folks? I suggest you do so.

So you won't go on record and give a firm no to believing Israel is prophecy?

Your answer just doesn't feel right to me.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

So you won't go on record and give a firm no to believing Israel is prophecy?

Your answer just doesn't feel right to me.

Are you deliberately being obtuse? I will repeat my answer.

I have no religious views on Israel. It is also irrelevant.

If you find equivocation in those statements it is of your own making.

Fair enough. Most dispensationalists outside of their element skirt the issue or hide what they feel though. Excuse the prodding. It's required in my line of "work".

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Fair enough. Most dispensationalists outside of their element skirt the issue or hide what they feel though. Excuse the prodding. It's required in my line of "work".

And I apologize for the "obtuse" crack. We were having a pleasant exchange. I shouldn't have gone there.

Let me be really clear. I think the Christian apocalypticist mind set is nuts.

But here's the thing. They don't want to kill me for disagreeing with them. The Islamists do.

I think equating the two is either a deliberately dishonest ploy or a display of utter moral failing.

My two cents.

They want to kill Islamic people though. That is where the equivalency comes from. They are just a relatively small group of American farmers and blue color people mostly though whose religious beliefs are exploited by a different group with different motivation though.


Some Islamists want to kill you because you're you, but if you weren't in a country that supports Israel's warcrimes, you wouldn't be the same you. I really find it a tough pill to swallow that Islamists would have crashed the Twin Towers if not for Israel's existence, and that our foreign policy is incidental to their hatred. That is borderline absurd.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

They want to kill Islamic people though. That is where the equivalency comes from. They are just a relatively small group of American farmers and blue color people mostly though whose religious beliefs are exploited by a different group with different motivation though.


Some Islamists want to kill you because you're you, but if you weren't in a country that supports Israel's warcrimes, you wouldn't be the same you. I really find it a tough pill to swallow that Islamists would have crashed the Twin Towers if not for Israel's existence, and that our foreign policy is incidental to their hatred. That is borderline absurd.

Geeze I don't at all. Islam has a 1000 year history of such behaviors. It was, and remains, a faith spread by the sword. I also think Israel is merely the latest justification. As I noted earlier prominent theologians like Al-Wahhab predate Israel by more than a century.

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm Out.

Christianity wasn't spread by the sword?

Why didn't they attack China? Brazil? India?(outside of the border dispute)

So if Israel's flags didn't exist, ours would still be burnt in effigy? And none other?


Ya ;

Wolf... I understand your point of view and know a few who share it on some level. However, I believe that it's not ALL about Israel as I stated earlier. I'm not going to continue this as a long winded back and forth as Marble has very eloquently and thoroughly shared my opinion almost verbatim.

The only thing I will point out is that you keep saying "we" or "they" want to kill Islamic people. Unless I'm misreading something, you continue to paint things with a very broad stroke. I know of no one that wants "Islamists" or even Islamic people killed. I know of many who want extremists or terrorists dealt with. Even the uneducated masses know the difference for the most part.

religion misovertood is poison. Be good to people, treat everyone how you want to be treated and there is no use for fake gods. Some people take off on sundays to worship a fake god. I take sundays off to worship a football team. I fail to see the difference and yet my job seems to have a problem with this. ????

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Christianity wasn't spread by the sword?

Why didn't they attack China? Brazil? India?(outside of the border dispute)

So if Israel's flags didn't exist, ours would still be burnt in effigy? And none other?


Ya ;

For the most part no Christianity wasn't spread by the sword. There were of course moments where it was.

Muslims HAVE attacked China. Read up on the Ugahrs. They have also attacked the Phillipines, India, Thailand, Spain, England, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Russia and that's off the top of my head. it doesn't include Islamic acts of terror WITHIN Islamic nations like Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Indonesia.

Yeah, it's all Israel's fault (rolling eyes)

pftt like israel hasn't attacked people for no reason? The genocide against Palestine? Lebanon?

ohh wait israel has there built in excuse to commit atrocities against humanity? What is our reason though? Ohh yes the attack that we let happen so that we could start up this "war on terror". No one is innocent in this. That is a myth.

Interesting stuff guys, sorry I missed most of this. Must say the level of debate on this board is getting pretty good

General comments - Marble, you know I respect you, but I think a lot of what you're doing here is culturally relativist, and falls into the trap of blaming Islam for things it does not stand for.

Wolf - there's no denying that the existence of Israel plays a major factor in Western/Muslim relations, but the issue is deeper than that I think you might be a bit hung up on the Israeli factor in this debate. You're a shitdisturber, but you're an intelligent shitdisturber! Sorry we got off on the wrong foot.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

I had a nasty reply to that posted but I'll back off it, and just ask, even if that is so, is it our business to impose our morals on them?

Sure it is. When a little 4 year old girl gets raped by a sicko and her parents let her bleed to death and call it an "Honor killing" then it's time to impose our morals on them. The Middle East seems to be capable of anything. Their goal is not to destory the US because we support Israel. Their goal is to destroy the US to impose Islam on the World. We're called "The Great Satan" in the Middle East. Their goal is to destroy that "Satan." I'm outta here for a while. Nuff said for me. However, with all due respect, you're no match for a "Marble" who has time to debate with you Wolf. Have a good time. LOL (Regardless of everything, you do write informative posts, Wolf. I'll say this much for you. You named yourself correctly.)

Eh, what does marble do that has you guys so intimidated? He's just a dime a dozen old foogy neo-con by my reckoning. No offense to the guy but "long hair is for atheists, hippies and fags" types don't really scare me.

Quote :

When a little 4 year old girl gets raped by a sicko and her parents let her bleed to death and call it an "Honor killing" then it's time to impose our morals on them.

That is so ignorant to present as if it is the norm across the Mid-east. And I've never heard of this specific event in question. A four year old was an honor killing victim? Even so, that is cruel and brutal, but killing tens of thousands of other children four and under in the name of our alien concept of freedom(a futile endeavor anyway, you can't bomb people into morality anymore than you can legislate it) is just as evil.

Chauvinist racist imperialism dressed up as humanism, I love it.

Oh yeah? Ask the Germans

Great Line. I'm going to use this, Marble.

oggy420 wrote:

pftt like israel hasn't attacked people for no reason? The genocide against Palestine? Lebanon?

ohh wait israel has there built in excuse to commit atrocities against humanity? What is our reason though? Ohh yes the attack that we let happen so that we could start up this "war on terror". No one is innocent in this. That is a myth.

The old "LOOK! over there!" argument.

I think what is hanging a lot of people up here is the idea Islamic terrorism would exist either way, so our relationship with Israel and foreign policy is incidental to its current existence. Would it exist without Israel? Probably on a small level, sure, that is a likelihood. But...

Would it be as accepted or disregarded in the Muslim world as it is now? This is very much doubtful.

A large part of the world feels like the West is the enemy of Islam, or has turned it's back on the ME. It's easy to see why even those who disagree with the terrorists would rather help them, or at least not cooperate with us in prosecuting them, in light of our foreign policy.

I will never be convinced that a world without Israel, such an isolationist, insulated view would have taken hold in the ME. Prophecies of "evil" are being fulfilled right in front of their eyes, so it gives speakers of hate toward the west a lot of credibility they wouldn't otherwise have.

Look, if fire and brimstone started reigning down from the sky tomorrow, you'd better believe some people would gather round and listen intently to the street corner crazies of today.

Wolf, after reading your posts in this thread, I have to say that I've never heard lunacy expressed so elegantly. Here's to hoping you never become the leader of a fringe right wing cult.

4445Frank wrote:

Wolf, after reading your posts in this thread, I have to say that I've never heard lunacy expressed so elegantly. Here's to hoping you never become the leader of a fringe right wing cult.

This disappointment you're feeling at marble and friends not "pwnin' me as you so publicly and desperately hoped for is palpable in your tone frank. Wanna hug dude?

Wolfgangsta wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

Wolf, after reading your posts in this thread, I have to say that I've never heard lunacy expressed so elegantly. Here's to hoping you never become the leader of a fringe right wing cult.

This disappointment you're feeling at marble and friends not "pwnin' me as you so publicly and desperately hoped for is palpable in your tone frank. Wanna hug dude?

Marble handed you your ass. However, truth be told, I think a lot of people like having you on this site (Me included.) You're intelligent opposition. Crazy, yes but you have strong resolve when it comes to your points. It's not you I have a problem with, it's your views, which you have every right to express. My experience is that the smartest guys usually end up seeing the light sooner or later anyway. Look at it this way, Wolf. What would "The Dark Knight" have been without "The Joker?" What would the Bible be without "Satan?" What would "Ninja' be without "The Wolf?!!!!!" In all seriousness, your views are fucked but I get the feeling you're ok. Anyway, maybe one day we'll have a whole thread we agree on. Until that time comes, my troops and I are ready.

Sounds like he said I was "obtuse" but then said sorry, and opinion of our debate was even with users finding value in things each of us said. Unfortunately for you, the debate never took a "handing anyone their ass" sort of turn, as much as you'd have liked it frank. Still ready for that hug man? Offer still stands. Whenever you're ready guy.

No offense, but we've had a great discussion since you left, and here you're starting to sound like a fat girl hanging on by a social thread, who wishes she was more popular, standing behind some popular girls, claiming they're your friends and came to your aid, and one day, I, the intellectual outsider will too join you all inside the GAP to engage in banal Americana. Sorry hunny I don't listen to lady gaga or have premarital sex, and I think if you actually talked to some of the "friends" you think you have, you'll find they don't really do that stuff either. Sex in the City sucks, Obama is a lie. Read a book and find a boyfriend who wants more than just sex with you.

In short - fight your own battles. I certainly hope a pattern doesn't develop where you run to marble or whoever the hero of the day is every time you've bitten off more than you can chew.

And like I said, if you had stated you weren't a Christian in the beginning you might have avoided some of the heat you got from some of the members here yesterday.

I don't want to keep our debate, or whatever this is a "I 1-upped you haha" thing anymore frank. At least until LA leaves again or whenever I am finished with soonermark's corpse.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Sounds like he said I was "obtuse" but then said sorry, and opinion of our debate was even with users finding value in things each of us said. Unfortunately for you, the debate never took a "handing anyone their ass" sort of turn, as much as you'd have liked it frank. Still ready for that hug man? Offer still stands. Whenever you're ready guy.

No offense, but we've had a great discussion since you left, and here you're starting to sound like a fat girl hanging on by a social thread, who wishes she was more popular, standing behind some popular girls, claiming they're your friends and came to your aid, and one day, I, the intellectual outsider will too join you all inside the GAP to engage in banal Americana. Sorry hunny I don't listen to lady gaga or have premarital sex, and I think if you actually talked to some of the "friends" you think you have, you'll find they don't really do that stuff either. Sex in the City sucks, Obama is a lie. Read a book and find a boyfriend who wants more than just sex with you.

In short - fight your own battles. I certainly hope a pattern doesn't develop where you run to marble or whoever the hero of the day is every time you've bitten off more than you can chew.

And like I said, if you had stated you weren't a Christian in the beginning you might have avoided some of the heat you got from some of the members here yesterday.

I don't want to keep our debate, or whatever this is a "I 1-upped you haha" thing anymore frank. At least until LA leaves again or whenever I am finished with soonermark's corpse.

Please wolf I played you like a fiddle this week.

We know dude. Whatever helps you sleep at night. You never did resolve why the San Francisco health department would have an anti-gay agenda by putting out stats about the local promiscuity or how you'd have the right to make a Muslim or Jew take their "hat" off when the Oklahoma Board of Ed specifically rewrote it's policy due to that lawsuit though.