Moderate Islam

Quote :

I'll believe there is such a thing as "Moderate Islam" when suicide bombers and terrorists who act in the name of the Islamic faith and those who kill those who draw cartoons of Muhammad are broadly and deeply condemned within the Islamic world and then are hunted down, tried, convicted and executed by the authorities of Isalmic nations to general acclaim.

In other words when the Islamic world treats men like bin Laden the way the US treated Timothy McVeigh, I'll believe there is such a thing as moderate Islam.

Right now it looks to me like there is Islamic Fundamentalism and Islamic quailing in fear of Islamic Fundamentalism.

The Islamic world doesn't have the benefit of several hundred years of enlightenment and cultural advancement as the west does, further, the US, UK and Israel are making every prophecy come true in their little book, so I don't think it's reasonable or rational to expect them to think or act like an Islamic version of America. That is how cultural imperialism gets justified. We need to leave the fucking middle east alone. There is no reason for our continued involvement there. If they destroy Israel so be it. If Israel continues to clean their clocks for the next hundred years, so be it. Not our problem.

We've made it our problem with our foreign policy.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Quote :

I'll believe there is such a thing as "Moderate Islam" when suicide bombers and terrorists who act in the name of the Islamic faith and those who kill those who draw cartoons of Muhammad are broadly and deeply condemned within the Islamic world and then are hunted down, tried, convicted and executed by the authorities of Isalmic nations to general acclaim.

In other words when the Islamic world treats men like bin Laden the way the US treated Timothy McVeigh, I'll believe there is such a thing as moderate Islam.

Right now it looks to me like there is Islamic Fundamentalism and Islamic quailing in fear of Islamic Fundamentalism.

The Islamic world doesn't have the benefit of several hundred years of enlightenment and cultural advancement as the west does, further, the US, UK and Israel are making every prophecy come true in their little book, so I don't think it's reasonable or rationale to expect them to think or act like an Islamic version of America. That is how cultural imperialism gets justified. We need to leave the fucking middle east alone. There is no reason for our continued involvement there. If they destroy Israel so be it. If Israel continues to clean their clocks for the next hundred years, so be it. Not our problem.

We've made it our problem with our foreign policy.

That's a self-induced problem.

That is relative. How they are is how they are. Their nature in itself isn't a flaw. Again, this is how cultural imperialism gets justified.

You must bow to our democracy, our concept of freedom and our values. No different than making them bow to an alien god or foreign king.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

That is relative. How they are is how they are. Their nature in itself isn't a flaw. Again, this is how cultural imperialism gets justified.

You must bow to our democracy, our concept of freedom and our values. No different than making them bow to an alien god or foreign king.

First off I have ZERO problems with cultural imperialism. NONE.

Cultures that offer equal rights to women are superior to those who condone or permit honor killings.

Cultures that promote religious tolerance are superior to those who kill infidels.

Cultures that treat Tim McVeigh the way he was treated are superior to those who treat bin Laden the way he was treated.

Cultures that allow satire of all kinds are superior to cultures that promote killing those who draw cartoons of their profit.

Cultures that ready many books are superior to cultures that read one.

Cultures that promote invention, creativity and freedom are superior to those that don't.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

That is relative. How they are is how they are. Their nature in itself isn't a flaw. Again, this is how cultural imperialism gets justified.

You must bow to our democracy, our concept of freedom and our values. No different than making them bow to an alien god or foreign king.

First off I have ZERO problems with cultural imperialism. NONE.

Cultures that offer equal rights to women are superior to those who condone or permit honor killings.

Cultures that promote religious tolerance are superior to those who kill infidels.

Cultures that treat Tim McVeigh the way he was treated are superior to those who treat bin Laden the way he was treated.

Cultures that allow satire of all kinds are superior to cultures that promote killing those who draw cartoons of their profit.

Cultures that ready many books are superior to cultures that read one.

Cultures that promote invention, creativity and freedom are superior to those that don't.

Great, basic points Marble. No sane person can argue with any of this. Hell, I even think most crazy people might agree with you.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

I'll believe there is such a thing as "Moderate Islam" when suicide bombers and terrorists who act in the name of the Islamic faith and those who kill those who draw cartoons of Muhammad are broadly and deeply condemned within the Islamic world and then are hunted down, tried, convicted and executed by the authorities of Isalmic nations to general acclaim.

In other words when the Islamic world treats men like bin Laden the way the US treated Timothy McVeigh, I'll believe there is such a thing as moderate Islam.

Right now it looks to me like there is Islamic Fundamentalism and Islamic quailing in fear of Islamic Fundamentalism.

Right again, buddy. I let myself get bashed while trying to make these points because of a lack of time. You've said everything I wanted to say. Finally, a logical voice comes in the picture. Take em down, Marble. Do it for America!!!!!!

Hey Wolf, try and take on Marble with that weak shit you were talking. (Smile). If there's anything left of you, I'll get you when I get off work.

I had a nasty reply to that posted but I'll back off it, and just ask, even if that is so, is it our business to impose our morals on them?

4445Frank wrote:

Hey Wolf, try and take on Marble with that weak shit you were talking. (Smile). If there's anything left of you, I'll get you when I get off work.

Is marble your big brother? Look man if you want your lunch money back, all you got to do is ask.


Just have him meet me at the bike racks.

It's not our concern what the savages do in their corners of the globe.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

That is relative. How they are is how they are. Their nature in itself isn't a flaw. Again, this is how cultural imperialism gets justified.

You must bow to our democracy, our concept of freedom and our values. No different than making them bow to an alien god or foreign king.

First off I have ZERO problems with cultural imperialism. NONE.

Cultures that offer equal rights to women are superior to those who condone or permit honor killings.

Cultures that promote religious tolerance are superior to those who kill infidels.

Cultures that treat Tim McVeigh the way he was treated are superior to those who treat bin Laden the way he was treated.

Cultures that allow satire of all kinds are superior to cultures that promote killing those who draw cartoons of their profit.

Cultures that ready many books are superior to cultures that read one.

Cultures that promote invention, creativity and freedom are superior to those that don't.

There is no argument against this.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

I had a nasty reply to that posted but I'll back off it, and just ask, even if that is so, is it our business to impose our morals on them?

Sure it is. When a little 4 year old girl gets raped by a sicko and her parents let her bleed to death and call it an "Honor killing" then it's time to impose our morals on them. The Middle East seems to be capable of anything. Their goal is not to destory the US because we support Israel. Their goal is to destroy the US to impose Islam on the World. We're called "The Great Satan" in the Middle East. Their goal is to destroy that "Satan." I'm outta here for a while. Nuff said for me. However, with all due respect, you're no match for a "Marble" who has time to debate with you Wolf. Have a good time. LOL (Regardless of everything, you do write informative posts, Wolf. I'll say this much for you. You named yourself correctly.)

Wolfgangsta wrote:

I had a nasty reply to that posted but I'll back off it, and just ask, even if that is so, is it our business to impose our morals on them?

If I were convinced that the Islamic world (I'm just gonna use shorthand rather than name countries/tribes etc) had, after being given the freedom to research and debate, freely chosen the things I listed above? Then no probably not.

But I am a million miles from being convinced that is true. I think self-determination is a basic and non-negotiable human right. But I think that requires one condition (among others) and is limited by another (among others). It requires the freedom to think, research, debate, learn, persuade, be persuaded, dissent and to do so in relative safety. The limitation is that there are some things that the majority viewpoint can never impose on a minority viewpoint.

4445Frank wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

I had a nasty reply to that posted but I'll back off it, and just ask, even if that is so, is it our business to impose our morals on them?

Sure it is. When a little 4 year old girl gets raped by a sicko and her parents let her bleed to death and call it an "Honor killing" then it's time to impose our morals on them. The Middle East seems to be capable of anything. Their goal is not to destory the US because we support Israel. Their goal is to destroy the US to impose Islam on the World. We're called "The Great Satan" in the Middle East. Their goal is to destroy that "Satan." I'm outta here for a while. Nuff said for me. However, with all due respect, you're no match for a "Marble" who has time to debate with you Wolf. Have a good time. LOL (Regardless of everything, you do write informative posts, Wolf. I'll say this much for you. You named yourself correctly.)

See THIS is the part I don't understand people not seeing. The West isn't hated for what it is, it is hated for what it is not, namely Muslim.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

I had a nasty reply to that posted but I'll back off it, and just ask, even if that is so, is it our business to impose our morals on them?

I am torn on this issue.
On one side I would like to say yes its everyone's job in this world to make it a better place and if the US can without damaging ourselves we should.
BUT
On the other side I say we need to mind our own.

4445Frank wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

I had a nasty reply to that posted but I'll back off it, and just ask, even if that is so, is it our business to impose our morals on them?

Sure it is. When a little 4 year old girl gets raped by a sicko and her parents let her bleed to death and call it an "Honor killing" then it's time to impose our morals on them. The Middle East seems to be capable of anything. Their goal is not to destory the US because we support Israel. Their goal is to destroy the US to impose Islam on the World. We're called "The Great Satan" in the Middle East. Their goal is to destroy that "Satan." I'm outta here for a while. Nuff said for me. However, with all due respect, you're no match for a "Marble" who has time to debate with you Wolf. Have a good time. LOL (Regardless of everything, you do write informative posts, Wolf. I'll say this much for you. You named yourself correctly.)

Eh, what does marble do that has you guys so intimidated? He's just a dime a dozen old foogy neo-con by my reckoning. No offense to the guy but "long hair is for atheists, hippies and fags" types don't really scare me.

Quote :

When a little 4 year old girl gets raped by a sicko and her parents let her bleed to death and call it an "Honor killing" then it's time to impose our morals on them.

That is so ignorant to present as if it is the norm across the Mid-east. And I've never heard of this specific event in question. A four year old was an honor killing victim? Even so, that is cruel and brutal, but killing tens of thousands of other children four and under in the name of our alien concept of freedom(a futile endeavor anyway, you can't bomb people into morality anymore than you can legislate it) is just as evil.

Chauvinist racist imperialism dressed up as humanism, I love it.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

I had a nasty reply to that posted but I'll back off it, and just ask, even if that is so, is it our business to impose our morals on them?

Sure it is. When a little 4 year old girl gets raped by a sicko and her parents let her bleed to death and call it an "Honor killing" then it's time to impose our morals on them. The Middle East seems to be capable of anything. Their goal is not to destory the US because we support Israel. Their goal is to destroy the US to impose Islam on the World. We're called "The Great Satan" in the Middle East. Their goal is to destroy that "Satan." I'm outta here for a while. Nuff said for me. However, with all due respect, you're no match for a "Marble" who has time to debate with you Wolf. Have a good time. LOL (Regardless of everything, you do write informative posts, Wolf. I'll say this much for you. You named yourself correctly.)

Eh, what does marble do that has you guys so intimidated? He's just a dime a dozen old foogy neo-con by my reckoning. No offense to the guy but "long hair is for atheists, hippies and fags" types don't really scare me.

Quote :

When a little 4 year old girl gets raped by a sicko and her parents let her bleed to death and call it an "Honor killing" then it's time to impose our morals on them.

That is so ignorant to present as if it is the norm across the Mid-east. And I've never heard of this specific event in question. A four year old was an honor killing victim? Even so, that is cruel and brutal, but killing tens of thousands of other children four and under in the name of our alien concept of freedom(a futile endeavor anyway, you can't bomb people into morality anymore than you can legislate it) is just as evil.

Chauvinist racist imperialism dressed up as humanism, I love it.

Oh yeah? Ask the Germans

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

I had a nasty reply to that posted but I'll back off it, and just ask, even if that is so, is it our business to impose our morals on them?

If I were convinced that the Islamic world (I'm just gonna use shorthand rather than name countries/tribes etc) had, after being given the freedom to research and debate, freely chosen the things I listed above? Then no probably not.

But I am a million miles from being convinced that is true. I think self-determination is a basic and non-negotiable human right. But I think that requires one condition (among others) and is limited by another (among others). It requires the freedom to think, research, debate, learn, persuade, be persuaded, dissent and to do so in relative safety. The limitation is that there are some things that the majority viewpoint can never impose on a minority viewpoint.

It happened in the west under the same limitations, and my more logistic ones. Unless we're going to argue Arabs are unable to under go these cultural changes on their own, I certainly don't think that it won't eventually happen, especially now with electronic communication and the printing press making censorship effectively obsolete.

Further, their culture is of no consequence to us. It's not our right to tell others what they should or shouldn't believe.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

See THIS is the part I don't understand people not seeing. The West isn't hated for what it is, it is hated for what it is not, namely Muslim.

Vs. hating the Middle East for not being Western Christian? This is different how?

If I were an Orly owler, oh boy o boy.

Quote :

you can't bomb people into morality anymore than you can legislate it) is just as evil.

The Germans weren't asked to change their cultural identity to an Islamo-Arabian one, were they?









I really care not to debate this, but I further believe the cultural choices the West have made will lead to our downfall before the end of the next 100 years. I wish our fate on no one else.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

I had a nasty reply to that posted but I'll back off it, and just ask, even if that is so, is it our business to impose our morals on them?

If I were convinced that the Islamic world (I'm just gonna use shorthand rather than name countries/tribes etc) had, after being given the freedom to research and debate, freely chosen the things I listed above? Then no probably not.

But I am a million miles from being convinced that is true. I think self-determination is a basic and non-negotiable human right. But I think that requires one condition (among others) and is limited by another (among others). It requires the freedom to think, research, debate, learn, persuade, be persuaded, dissent and to do so in relative safety. The limitation is that there are some things that the majority viewpoint can never impose on a minority viewpoint.

It happened in the west under the same limitations, and my more logistic ones. Unless we're going to argue Arabs are unable to under go these cultural changes on their own, I certainly don't think that it won't eventually happen, especially now with electronic communication and the printing press making censorship effectively obsolete.

Further, their culture is of no consequence to us. It's not our right to tell others what they should or shouldn't believe.

So the logical question for the Muslim world is WHEN DOES THE REFORMATION HAPPEN??????????? I mean the printing press has been around for 500 years now and the interwebnet thingy is reasonably wide spread already.

The big problem is "eventually" just isn't an acceptable threshold given how small the world has become and how lethal the weapons have become and how the espoused goal of prominent Islamic nutjobs is to create an Islamis west.

Who knows where the Islamic world would be had we not forcibly recreated an Alien Israel state and send them careening back into the cultural dark ages?

Why should we lay our lives on the line for a losing cause with questionable-at-best moral footing? That is a perversion of everything the founding fathers stood for.

Quote :

Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

Thomas Jefferson.

Quote :

The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations, is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. Europe has a set of primary interests, which to us have none, or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves, by artificial ties, in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

George Washington.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

See THIS is the part I don't understand people not seeing. The West isn't hated for what it is, it is hated for what it is not, namely Muslim.

Vs. hating the Middle East for not being Western Christian? This is different how?

If I were an Orly owler, oh boy o boy.

I don't know who you're talking to. I certainly don't hate the ME for not being Christian or Western.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Who knows where the Islamic world would be had we not forcibly recreated an Alien Israel state and send them careening back into the cultural dark ages?

Why should we lay our lives on the line for a losing cause with questionable-at-best moral footing? That is a perversion of everything the founding fathers stood for.

Quote :

Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

Thomas Jefferson.

Quote :

The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations, is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. Europe has a set of primary interests, which to us have none, or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves, by artificial ties, in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

George Washington.

The idea that the creation of Israel is what set off Islamic Fundamentalism is silly. Al Wahhab was an 19th century guy for example.

Quote :

The idea that the creation of Israel is what set off Islamic Fundamentalism is silly.

How so? I am not saying Islamic fundamentalism wouldn't exist, but would it have a voice? Hardly. How many wars have Israel and the middle east engaged in again? Was the US the Great Satan before Israel? Those are not rhetorical.


Also, considering it's set off a considerable amount of Christian fundamentalism, why not Islamic?



Marble, in order to engage in this discussion, I would like to know your religious views on Israel. Please answer this question.