Larry Holmes: Overrated Champion

I had to write this thread because every time I hear Larry Holme’s name mentioned alongside Joe Louis and Ali, it makes me cringe. I’ll make this quick. Larry Holmes is not the worst HW Champ to ever do it, but he is vastly overrated. Here’s a quick look at his career. He started out beautifully by fighting Ken Norton in an excellent contest of wills and was able to twice defeat Earnie Shavers. Following that, a slick historian may tell you that he defeated 5 world champions and was a dynamite champion himself. Let’s look at that.

A.Ken Norton was not a World Champion. He was given a belt (WBC) and lost it in his first defense against Holmes.

B.Muhammad Ali was waaaayyyy past his prime and nobody really gives Holmes credit for that victory.

C.Leon Spinks? Nuff said.

D.Bonecrusher Smith. I give him some credit for this. Bone was one of the strongest guys I’ve ever seen and Holmes outfought him. Problem was, this was for the IBF HW title. Holmes vacated the other title (WBC) because he didn’t want to fight Greg Page, Pinky Thomas, Michael Dokes, Tony Tubbs and God forbid another fight with Witherspoon or Mike Weaver. This equates to ducking the whole Heavyweight Division.

E.Tim Witherspoon. Good fight and gutsy performance by Holmes. Witherspoon approached good, but nobody would ever accuse him of being an ATG. Also, with 3 word champions in one division, I'm confused. Was Tim ever a bonified World Champ?

F.In another post, flapanther bought up an excellent question. Which fighters have changed the careers of other fighters? When Larry Holmes got up from the 7th round knockdown he suffered at the hands of Renaldo Snipes, he was a different fighter. My opinion? He saw he could get knocked out and became fearful of fighting anyone with the ability to do that. Look at Larry’s fight with Gerry Cooney. He should’ve had him out in 2 rounds easy. Gerry was out of it when he got up from the knockdown in round 2. Holmes backed off and let him survive. This showed me that he was fearful of Cooney’s left and had KO in the back of his mind.
I really can’t see where Holmes dazzled or did anything we haven’t seen before. The 80’s was full of ATG fighters but the HW division stuck out like a sore thumb. Nobody’s going to compare any of the challengers mentioned above with Tommy Hearns or even Cuevas. I would have kept silent about this, however every time Holmes has a chance to comment on certain fighters of the past, he seems to exhibit a jealous streak and attacks them with incoherent ramblings. (See his bashing of James Toney on Espn and Muhammad Ali.)

I’m anxious to see what points are made in favor of Holmes. (smile)

Calling his opposition weak? In the words of Canada's second-best rapper, Drake:

"I beat the pussy up; call me Larry Holmes"

Ok Tobe, help me out here. How does one duck a whole division and end up on the same level of those HW champs who took on everyone? I already mentioned the guys he refused to fight. A rapper and his song don't change that fact.

4445Frank wrote:

Ok Tobe, help me out here. How does one duck a whole division and end up on the same level of those HW champs who took on everyone? I already mentioned the guys he refused to fight. A rapper and his song don't change that fact.

Nah, I agree with you for the most part Frank, just looking for a way to work that line into a post

But to be fair Ken Norton might not have been a real World Champ but was a seriously dangerous fighter. Still have to give Holmes credit there.

As for the guys he "ducked" I think that had a lot more to do with not wanting to be beholden to Don King's slave contracts than actually avoiding anyone. And for the Cooney fight you have to realize that Holmes probably was fighting cautiously 'cause Cooney actually could punch; it was the smarter game plan. Also he may have been motivated by King to let that one go rounds as well.

Still, I totally agree he's not on the same level as Ali or Joe Louis.

Tobe06 wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

Ok Tobe, help me out here. How does one duck a whole division and end up on the same level of those HW champs who took on everyone? I already mentioned the guys he refused to fight. A rapper and his song don't change that fact.

Nah, I agree with you for the most part Frank, just looking for a way to work that line into a post

But to be fair Ken Norton might not have been a real World Champ but was a seriously dangerous fighter. Still have to give Holmes credit there.

As for the guys he "ducked" I think that had a lot more to do with not wanting to be beholden to Don King's slave contracts than actually avoiding anyone. And for the Cooney fight you have to realize that Holmes probably was fighting cautiously 'cause Cooney actually could punch; it was the smarter game plan. Also he may have been motivated by King to let that one go rounds as well.

Still, I totally agree he's not on the same level as Ali or Joe Louis.

These are good points and most Holmes supporters depend on these when protecting him. I'll just say this. Michael Spinks knocked Cooney down 5 or 6 times.

Don King is a monster and probably reps the mob. That said, Holmes dropped the WBC title with relative ease and with it, Don King. Let's look at this. Holmes was probably one of the smartest guys I ever saw in or out of the ring.(Note: He doesn't prove it when he talks, but he's a brilliant businessman.) He owns a whole town. Also, he was a public figure at the time King was in control of the WBC title. That's power. Most of these challenges came in the mid to late 80s and I think Holmes had the power to challenge these men and avoid a Don King slave contract. There were probably hundreds of brilliant lawyers looking to help Holmes out if he asked. Just my take looking from the outside in.

frank to a large extent ill agree with you..norton first was never a real champ.ali had to make a mandatory against either young or norton.when young n norton fought the winner would lol be declaired champ ONLY if ali did not sign to fight them..he never ducked weaver.he fought and koed him in the late rounds..larry was always cautious..snipes who could not hit a barn door with a punch wound up and decked him big time and missed follow up shots..a marciano louis or dempsey would of finished him..ditto with shavers.he ran out of gas after almost koing him.despite that larrys talent warrants a top ten position of all time in the heavies..the first time i saw him fight was against rodney bobick in the under card of the first frazier-foreman fight.i asked the guy next to me whats this guys name.he asked why..and holmes he said..i ansered because your looking at a future great heavyweight champ..he was mechanical yes and extra cautious even then.but his jab ring generalship and intelligence impressed me..very fluid fighter..overated..yes in some regards.the talent though was there..

im my thoughts yes frank larry does not belong in disgussion when louis marciano ali or tunney or dempseys name etc etc..he certainly is on level with a foreman frazier walcott liston etc etc in those talks and above the glorified hollyfield .

frank tim weatherspoon along with pinklon thomas page norton weaver burbick bonecrusher etc etc were all PHONEY champs.

dmar, I agree with all three of your posts. Excellent points. I also recall seeing Holmes early as a child. He was fighting "Young Sanford" who I think was managed by Redd Foxx. I thought he was a future champion then. Granted, truth be told, I think he could've beaten all the guys he ducked with the exception of a prime Dokes.Over all, Holmes does deserve to be compared to Joe Frazier, though I think Joe would've killed him.

frank sorry.i think it was leon spinks whose partial title or one belt went AFTER to the norton-young fight winner cause he gave ali a rematch..old age setting in lol..

gotta completely disagree

question why is C. Leon Spinks?????

do you mean Michael Spinks?

Larry cleaned out a division

Birdofthad wrote:

gotta completely disagree

question why is C. Leon Spinks?????

do you mean Michael Spinks?

Larry cleaned out a division

I was speaking of the World Champs that Holmes defeated. Leon Spinks was one of them. Larry Holmes never defeated Michael Spinks. He lost both fights.

As far as cleaning out the division, I named a good deal of fighters who were the biggest names during his reign. They never received a fight with Holmes.

Hell Bird, at least we agree on the new HBO series. LOL

4445Frank wrote:

I had to write this thread because every time I hear Larry Holme’s name mentioned alongside Joe Louis and Ali, it makes me cringe. I’ll make this quick. Larry Holmes is not the worst HW Champ to ever do it, but he is vastly overrated. Here’s a quick look at his career. He started out beautifully by fighting Ken Norton in an excellent contest of wills and was able to twice defeat Earnie Shavers. Following that, a slick historian may tell you that he defeated 5 world champions and was a dynamite champion himself. Let’s look at that.

A.Ken Norton was not a World Champion. He was given a belt (WBC) and lost it in his first defense against Holmes.

B.Muhammad Ali was waaaayyyy past his prime and nobody really gives Holmes credit for that victory.

C.Leon Spinks? Nuff said.

D.Bonecrusher Smith. I give him some credit for this. Bone was one of the strongest guys I’ve ever seen and Holmes outfought him. Problem was, this was for the IBF HW title. Holmes vacated the other title (WBC) because he didn’t want to fight Greg Page, Pinky Thomas, Michael Dokes, Tony Tubbs and God forbid another fight with Witherspoon or Mike Weaver. This equates to ducking the whole Heavyweight Division.

E.Tim Witherspoon. Good fight and gutsy performance by Holmes. Witherspoon approached good, but nobody would ever accuse him of being an ATG. Also, with 3 word champions in one division, I'm confused. Was Tim ever a bonified World Champ?

F.In another post, flapanther bought up an excellent question. Which fighters have changed the careers of other fighters? When Larry Holmes got up from the 7th round knockdown he suffered at the hands of Renaldo Snipes, he was a different fighter. My opinion? He saw he could get knocked out and became fearful of fighting anyone with the ability to do that. Look at Larry’s fight with Gerry Cooney. He should’ve had him out in 2 rounds easy. Gerry was out of it when he got up from the knockdown in round 2. Holmes backed off and let him survive. This showed me that he was fearful of Cooney’s left and had KO in the back of his mind.
I really can’t see where Holmes dazzled or did anything we haven’t seen before. The 80’s was full of ATG fighters but the HW division stuck out like a sore thumb. Nobody’s going to compare any of the challengers mentioned above with Tommy Hearns or even Cuevas. I would have kept silent about this, however every time Holmes has a chance to comment on certain fighters of the past, he seems to exhibit a jealous streak and attacks them with incoherent ramblings. (See his bashing of James Toney on Espn and Muhammad Ali.)

I’m anxious to see what points are made in favor of Holmes. (smile)

Frank, you know I love ya bro. But Larry Holmes overrated?

Let me try to go through your points. The Norton point is fair, but Kenny was a helluva fighter, and probably the toughest heavyweight anyone won a belt against until 1992, when Bowe beat Holyfield. I don't blame Larry for that, nor do I blame him for the Ali fight or Ali's condition.

Some of his challengers were never that great. But I look at it like this: Maybe Larry had something to do with them never being great. Beating great fighters was not a prerequisite for greatness for Jack Dempsey or Joe Louis either. Name the best guy they beat?

I'm not sure what the kd suffered against Snipes says bad against Larry. That shot, the Shavers knockdown showed larry had spirit and balls. The challengers he fought were usually hungry guys. I wish hungry contenders were around today. If the guys Larry fought were so bad, why were they still around for the Mike Tyson era? 4 guys Larry beat later fought Tyaon.

I was a little young to see the Ali glory years. One of my first boxing memories is Ali-Spinks II, so Larry was the first hvy champion I really knew. I'm pretty sure he's the best of my lifetime. He had the best hvy jab I ever saw, was smart, could take a punch, and was as tough as they come. He was a REAL heavyweight champion. I don't care what the sanctioning bodies have to say about it. He was presidential.

Love me some Larry Holmes. But I can see why you'd be annoyed to see him mentioned with Ali and Louis. I'd say top 6 for sure though.

It depends on your starting point. Holmes doesn't belong with Ali and Louis because his competition never really allowed him to measure up. But I'm also not sure your claims of him not fighting the right guys stands up to scrutiny. Let's go through them.

Alfredo Evangelista-ranked #7. Guys like John Tate, Ron Lyle and Jimmy Young are ranked ahead of him.

Ossie Ocasio-Ranked #8

Mike Weaver ranked #4

Ernie Shavers-ranked #5

Lorenzo Zanon0-Ranked #7

Leroy Jones ranked #6

At this point the obvious unfought challenger is John Tate.

Scott LeDoux-ranked #10.

Muhammad Ali-waddya gonna do?

Trevor Berbick-Ranked #6

Leon Spinks-ranked #3

At this point Mike Weaver (who beat Tate) is ranked #1. But hOlmes had already KO'd him. Gerry Coatzee is in the rankings but he's a South African which at that time was hugely problematic and Greg Page is #4. But then Page gets beat by Trevor Berbick.

Renaldo Snipes-Ranked #10.

Gerry Cooney-Ranked #2

At this point Michael Dokes is probably the right guy.

Tex Cobb-ranked #9

Now Dokes gets beat by Gerrie Coatzee. At this point the #1 guy Coatzee is unfightable for political reasons, #2 Page has lost to Berbick, #3 Dokes isn't marketable because he just lost to Coatzee and Pinklon Thomas is next. Then Tim Witherspoon.

Tim Witherspoon-Ranked #5

Scott Frank and Marvis Frazier, neither is ranked

Pinklon Thomas keeps winning and really now has earned a shot. Maybe Greg Page too. Buut then Page gets drilled by Witherspoon.

David Bey-ranked #3

Carl Williams-Ranked #8

And then the Spinks fights.

Looks to me like an extraordinarily accomplished man! The only obvious names are Pinklon Thomas and Coatzee. Guys like Page and Dokes and John Tate didn't stay at the top long enough for a clamor to build (at leas as far as I can recall).

Is his resume imperfect? Yup. Is it Ali or Louis? Nope. Is it impressive as hell? It is to me.

Scottlevinson wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

I had to write this thread because every time I hear Larry Holme’s name mentioned alongside Joe Louis and Ali, it makes me cringe. I’ll make this quick. Larry Holmes is not the worst HW Champ to ever do it, but he is vastly overrated. Here’s a quick look at his career. He started out beautifully by fighting Ken Norton in an excellent contest of wills and was able to twice defeat Earnie Shavers. Following that, a slick historian may tell you that he defeated 5 world champions and was a dynamite champion himself. Let’s look at that.

A.Ken Norton was not a World Champion. He was given a belt (WBC) and lost it in his first defense against Holmes.

B.Muhammad Ali was waaaayyyy past his prime and nobody really gives Holmes credit for that victory.

C.Leon Spinks? Nuff said.

D.Bonecrusher Smith. I give him some credit for this. Bone was one of the strongest guys I’ve ever seen and Holmes outfought him. Problem was, this was for the IBF HW title. Holmes vacated the other title (WBC) because he didn’t want to fight Greg Page, Pinky Thomas, Michael Dokes, Tony Tubbs and God forbid another fight with Witherspoon or Mike Weaver. This equates to ducking the whole Heavyweight Division.

E.Tim Witherspoon. Good fight and gutsy performance by Holmes. Witherspoon approached good, but nobody would ever accuse him of being an ATG. Also, with 3 word champions in one division, I'm confused. Was Tim ever a bonified World Champ?

F.In another post, flapanther bought up an excellent question. Which fighters have changed the careers of other fighters? When Larry Holmes got up from the 7th round knockdown he suffered at the hands of Renaldo Snipes, he was a different fighter. My opinion? He saw he could get knocked out and became fearful of fighting anyone with the ability to do that. Look at Larry’s fight with Gerry Cooney. He should’ve had him out in 2 rounds easy. Gerry was out of it when he got up from the knockdown in round 2. Holmes backed off and let him survive. This showed me that he was fearful of Cooney’s left and had KO in the back of his mind.
I really can’t see where Holmes dazzled or did anything we haven’t seen before. The 80’s was full of ATG fighters but the HW division stuck out like a sore thumb. Nobody’s going to compare any of the challengers mentioned above with Tommy Hearns or even Cuevas. I would have kept silent about this, however every time Holmes has a chance to comment on certain fighters of the past, he seems to exhibit a jealous streak and attacks them with incoherent ramblings. (See his bashing of James Toney on Espn and Muhammad Ali.)

I’m anxious to see what points are made in favor of Holmes. (smile)

Frank, you know I love ya bro. But Larry Holmes overrated?

Let me try to go through your points. The Norton point is fair, but Kenny was a helluva fighter, and probably the toughest heavyweight anyone won a belt against until 1992, when Bowe beat Holyfield. I don't blame Larry for that, nor do I blame him for the Ali fight or Ali's condition.

Some of his challengers were never that great. But I look at it like this: Maybe Larry had something to do with them never being great. Beating great fighters was not a prerequisite for greatness for Jack Dempsey or Joe Louis either. Name the best guy they beat?

I'm not sure what the kd suffered against Snipes says bad against Larry. That shot, the Shavers knockdown showed larry had spirit and balls. The challengers he fought were usually hungry guys. I wish hungry contenders were around today. If the guys Larry fought were so bad, why were they still around for the Mike Tyson era? 4 guys Larry beat later fought Tyaon.

I was a little young to see the Ali glory years. One of my first boxing memories is Ali-Spinks II, so Larry was the first hvy champion I really knew. I'm pretty sure he's the best of my lifetime. He had the best hvy jab I ever saw, was smart, could take a punch, and was as tough as they come. He was a REAL heavyweight champion. I don't care what the sanctioning bodies have to say about it. He was presidential.

Love me some Larry Holmes. But I can see why you'd be annoyed to see him mentioned with Ali and Louis. I'd say top 6 for sure though.

This was a good post. I don't take disagreements personally and I'm not that sensitive.LOL You don't have to treat me with kid gloves. Also, if everyone on here read both our posts, most would agree with yours. I knew I was taking the minority opinion before I wrote this. I'd be kinder to Larry if he was kinder to other figthers. He's not. Next time he does an interview, listen to him.

mike dokes for 3 years was the top contender for most of that time.no fight with larry.he did fight some ranked guys but they were fill in the blanks type of ranked guys..anotherwords a name to fill out the top ten.lyle was a top 3 or 4 guy for 3 yeaRS also.holmes fought neighter..he did fight carl the truth williams who was ranked 8 th at the times and williams beat larry hands down..was truly robbed.franks right on the dokes tate cotzee stuff.holmes avoided them so they fought each other..tex cobb jones zanon scott ledoux were jokes.this is a example why stating how many ranked fighters theyt beat goes out the window sometimes.thoses 4 are fill in the blanks please to finish a top ten..shavers had him koed but immediately ran out of gas..if he didnt earnie would of bewen champ..now holmes in the first fight with shavers fought a masterpiece showing why hes a top ten HW..dokes was good enough to ko or beat larry in thoses 3 years.john tate was a nothing .piunklyn thomas for a 3 year period was decent and could of maybe beaton holmes..he cleaned out a division of also ran fill in the blank fighters..the few that were a threat dokes thomas or a weathersppon rematch he avoided.. several feel tim beat larry that night.ditto carl williams who shocked him.why no rematch there..look larry is a all time great..maybe even a top 6 or 7 HW no doubt..cleaned out a division..noo way..cleaned out also ran ranked fill in the blank fighters..yep he did.overated by several folks .yep.dispite that i feel hes good or great enough for a top 10 for sure.

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

It depends on your starting point. Holmes doesn't belong with Ali and Louis because his competition never really allowed him to measure up. But I'm also not sure your claims of him not fighting the right guys stands up to scrutiny. Let's go through them.

Alfredo Evangelista-ranked #7. Guys like John Tate, Ron Lyle and Jimmy Young are ranked ahead of him. ( A never been)

Ossie Ocasio-Ranked #8 (Cruiserweight)

Mike Weaver ranked #4 (Beat up on Holmes. The stoppage was premature and based on punches that failed to land. Weaver gets the WBA crown from Tate. If ever their was a reason for a rematch, this was it. Weaver begged. Holmes ignored.

Ernie Shavers-ranked #5 No question here. Good victory over a great puncher. Showed heart, intelligence and ability.

Lorenzo Zanon0-Ranked #7 (never been)

Leroy Jones ranked #6 (This man was obeste and a never been)

At this point the obvious unfought challenger is John Tate. (John is past tense. He's already knocked out by Weaver.)

Scott LeDoux-ranked #10. (I like Scott but c'mon)

Muhammad Ali-waddya gonna do? (We agree)

Trevor Berbick-Ranked #6 (At this point, Holmes is a fighting champ. He made Berbick look better than he was but so what? He won.)

Leon Spinks-ranked #3 (Good win over a prime Leon Spinks. Doesn't mean much, but it's better than Zanon.

At this point Mike Weaver (who beat Tate) is ranked #1. But hOlmes had already KO'd him. Gerry Coatzee is in the rankings but he's a South African which at that time was hugely problematic and Greg Page is #4. But then Page gets beat by Trevor Berbick.

Renaldo Snipes-Ranked #10.

Gerry Cooney-Ranked #2 (Note: At this point, Holmes is fighting everyone. Never ducked a man in his life.)

At this point Michael Dokes is probably the right guy. (Right. And before Dokes goes out on concaine, he tries to get a shot at Holmes and fails. So he challenges Mike Weaver for the WBA title. The two fight twice and afterwards, Dokes is worn out but is still wearing the title. Following the 2nd war (The first was stopped way too soon in favor of Dokes) Dokes goes out on Cocaine and is destroyed by a game Gerrie Coetzee.

Tex Cobb-ranked #9

Now Dokes gets beat by Gerrie Coatzee. At this point the #1 guy Coatzee is unfightable for political reasons, #2 Page has lost to Berbick, #3 Dokes isn't marketable because he just lost to Coatzee and Pinklon Thomas is next. Then Tim Witherspoon. (Marble, all this stuff didn't happen at once. Here's my take. Holmes fights Tim Witherspoon in 1983 and wins a disputed split decision. On that same card, Greg Page makes himself the number one contender for Holmes WBC belt by beating up on Renaldo Snipes. Holmes was supposed to take on the winner. What happened? After that, sure, Coetzee knocked out Dokes. There was supposed to be a title unification fight in the States between those two. What happened to that? Page, with no chance of fighting Holmes, knocks out Coetzee. At this point, Holmes is saying no to everyone and they're saying yes to each other. They have to make money.

Tim Witherspoon-Ranked #5 (See above. I started the last point on the night Holmes fought TW.

Scott Frank and Marvis Frazier, neither is ranked. (Who were they tune ups for?

Pinklon Thomas keeps winning and really now has earned a shot. Maybe Greg Page too. Buut then Page gets drilled by Witherspoon. (Holmes could've fought Page long before he lost to TW. What about Pinky Thomas? Soon, he loses to Trevor Berbick but could never get a fight with Holmes. David Bey-ranked #3 (Credited performance by Holmes.)

Carl Williams-Ranked #8 (Holmes gets his ass kicked this night by a fighter who's knees buckle when the wind blows.)

And then the Spinks fights.

Looks to me like an extraordinarily accomplished man! The only obvious names are Pinklon Thomas and Coatzee. Guys like Page and Dokes and John Tate didn't stay at the top long enough for a clamor to build (at leas as far as I can recall).

Is his resume imperfect? Yup. Is it Ali or Louis? Nope. Is it impressive as hell? It is to me. (As I think we both proved, it's all in the way you look at it. Thanks for your response.)

You seem to be taking a different tack now. First your complaint was Holmes didn't fight who he should have. NOW you are making the Wlad argument, he fought the right guys, but they stunk. I agree with the second in large part. He didn't have the extensive, great level of competition that Ali had. But look at it this way. Whose list of wins is more impressive? Holmes or Tyson? Holmes or Lennox Lewis? Holmes or Wlad? Holmes or Floyd Patterson? Holmes or Joe Walcott?

Again, he ain't Louis or Ali, but you also can't find ten heavyweights in history who did more. I think having Holmes in the 5-8 gang with Frazier and Marciano and Jeffries seems about right.

add ocassio as a joke also..ranked cause we need 10 names..

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

It depends on your starting point. Holmes doesn't belong with Ali and Louis because his competition never really allowed him to measure up. But I'm also not sure your claims of him not fighting the right guys stands up to scrutiny. Let's go through them.

Alfredo Evangelista-ranked #7. Guys like John Tate, Ron Lyle and Jimmy Young are ranked ahead of him. ( A never been)

Ossie Ocasio-Ranked #8 (Cruiserweight)

Mike Weaver ranked #4 (Beat up on Holmes. The stoppage was premature and based on punches that failed to land. Weaver gets the WBA crown from Tate. If ever their was a reason for a rematch, this was it. Weaver begged. Holmes ignored.

Ernie Shavers-ranked #5 No question here. Good victory over a great puncher. Showed heart, intelligence and ability.

Lorenzo Zanon0-Ranked #7 (never been)

Leroy Jones ranked #6 (This man was obeste and a never been)

At this point the obvious unfought challenger is John Tate. (John is past tense. He's already knocked out by Weaver.)

Scott LeDoux-ranked #10. (I like Scott but c'mon)

Muhammad Ali-waddya gonna do? (We agree)

Trevor Berbick-Ranked #6 (At this point, Holmes is a fighting champ. He made Berbick look better than he was but so what? He won.)

Leon Spinks-ranked #3 (Good win over a prime Leon Spinks. Doesn't mean much, but it's better than Zanon.

At this point Mike Weaver (who beat Tate) is ranked #1. But hOlmes had already KO'd him. Gerry Coatzee is in the rankings but he's a South African which at that time was hugely problematic and Greg Page is #4. But then Page gets beat by Trevor Berbick.

Renaldo Snipes-Ranked #10.

Gerry Cooney-Ranked #2 (Note: At this point, Holmes is fighting everyone. Never ducked a man in his life.)

At this point Michael Dokes is probably the right guy. (Right. And before Dokes goes out on concaine, he tries to get a shot at Holmes and fails. So he challenges Mike Weaver for the WBA title. The two fight twice and afterwards, Dokes is worn out but is still wearing the title. Following the 2nd war (The first was stopped way too soon in favor of Dokes) Dokes goes out on Cocaine and is destroyed by a game Gerrie Coetzee.

Tex Cobb-ranked #9

Now Dokes gets beat by Gerrie Coatzee. At this point the #1 guy Coatzee is unfightable for political reasons, #2 Page has lost to Berbick, #3 Dokes isn't marketable because he just lost to Coatzee and Pinklon Thomas is next. Then Tim Witherspoon. (Marble, all this stuff didn't happen at once. Here's my take. Holmes fights Tim Witherspoon in 1983 and wins a disputed split decision. On that same card, Greg Page makes himself the number one contender for Holmes WBC belt by beating up on Renaldo Snipes. Holmes was supposed to take on the winner. What happened? After that, sure, Coetzee knocked out Dokes. There was supposed to be a title unification fight in the States between those two. What happened to that? Page, with no chance of fighting Holmes, knocks out Coetzee. At this point, Holmes is saying no to everyone and they're saying yes to each other. They have to make money.

Tim Witherspoon-Ranked #5 (See above. I started the last point on the night Holmes fought TW.

Scott Frank and Marvis Frazier, neither is ranked. (Who were they tune ups for?

Pinklon Thomas keeps winning and really now has earned a shot. Maybe Greg Page too. Buut then Page gets drilled by Witherspoon. (Holmes could've fought Page long before he lost to TW. What about Pinky Thomas? Soon, he loses to Trevor Berbick but could never get a fight with Holmes. David Bey-ranked #3 (Credited performance by Holmes.)

Carl Williams-Ranked #8 (Holmes gets his ass kicked this night by a fighter who's knees buckle when the wind blows.)

And then the Spinks fights.

Looks to me like an extraordinarily accomplished man! The only obvious names are Pinklon Thomas and Coatzee. Guys like Page and Dokes and John Tate didn't stay at the top long enough for a clamor to build (at leas as far as I can recall).

Is his resume imperfect? Yup. Is it Ali or Louis? Nope. Is it impressive as hell? It is to me. (As I think we both proved, it's all in the way you look at it. Thanks for your response.)

You seem to be taking a different tack now. First your complaint was Holmes didn't fight who he should have. NOW you are making the Wlad argument, he fought the right guys, but they stunk. I agree with the second in large part. He didn't have the extensive, great level of competition that Ali had. But look at it this way. Whose list of wins is more impressive? Holmes or Tyson? Holmes or Lennox Lewis? Holmes or Wlad? Holmes or Floyd Patterson? Holmes or Joe Walcott?

Again, he ain't Louis or Ali, but you also can't find ten heavyweights in history who did more. I think having Holmes in the 5-8 gang with Frazier and Marciano and Jeffries seems about right.

I don't feel that way, however you could easily think that with the way my response was written. No Marble, I think Holmes was a fighting champion all the way up until Gerry Cooney. It really didn't matter what I thought of the first bunch of guys. He fought them. Read the 2nd part of my response when I talk about Dokes, Weaver, Page, Thomas and even Coetzee. Those are a lot of fighters even if we leave Weaver out. I also left out Tony Tubbs, who Holmes was in no hurry to fight was well. But pay attention to the Holmes - Witherspoon fight and the year 1983. Following this fight, when Page became the number one contender by outclassing Snipes, Holmes began to duck everyone. To be safe, let the argument begin following this night.

dmar5143 wrote:

add ocassio as a joke also..ranked cause we need 10 names..

I have him listed as a Cruiserweight.