Would Frankie Edgar have beaten the real BJ Penn?

Well if everyone is done giving every excuse in the book as to why bj lost, maybe we can call it what it really is now. frankie had the better gameplan, the better training camp was in better shape and more motivated than bj. I really have to question wether bj had a gameplan at all. I think his ego probay thought he would just go out there and outskill frankie. I mean after all it's just frankie edgar.... He's nothing special. The problem is that frankie is evolving into a technical nightmare with his combination of speed, wrestling, and unique angles that he attacks from. Frankie mixed up his attack much better and that is why he was significantly more successful with his takedowns. Bottom line : frankie learned a hell of a lot more than bj did from their first fight and quite frankly at this point frankie is a more complete fighter.

Yo Oggy, I wouldn't disagree that Frankie had a better game plan, better mind set and just overall better skill that night. But didn't BJ look like he gave up? Credit to Frankie for breaking his will but BJ seemed uninterested after round 1.

I am not sure about the REAL BJ Penn question, but let us also consider that this. If Hughes was the prototype and GSP was 2.0 then we are close if not already there of the new generation of fighters. In the beginning it was style vs style. Then began the almagamation of 2 or more styles. Then it went from knowing multiple styles to garner victory to knowing multiple styles and conditioning. Now we are at the beginning of a new era in MMA where it is an actual lifestyle. What you eat, how you workout, preparation, conditioning, specified training, etc. A few years from now, you will start seeing some more pure stylist being competitive, because they will have adjusted their style to modern MMA. We are at a very exciting time in the sport. It is very possible that BJ has failed to keep up with the growth of the sport as a whole and he will possibly start sliding down the mountain. Regardless, he is still one of the greatest of his era.

I still don't see how this is making excuses for BJ. No one has made any excuses for BJ around here in fact. This is simply the reality of the situation and this is just what happened. That is the end of it.

If it makes you feel better to believe that was the best BJ Penn could have fought and Frankie Edgar upgraded his speed, takedowns, footwork and striking all significantly within a single training camp, as if he leveled up all of his stat bars, that's your prerogative. Whatever. You can find me in the real world trying to figure out what happened with the greatest LW in the sport's history.

I agree with everything you're saying about Edgar. And I think he's probably better in all areas than ever before, however it was plain as day that Penn was a shell of himself. I don't think that takes anything away from Edgar to speak the truth : BJ Penn under performed.

I don't think BJ had a game plan either, oggy, good insight, and like SOONERS said it looked like BJ gave up. I could feel the fight going that way as soon as I saw Edgar hyped up bouncing all over the place and BJ looking listlessly across the cage.

Bj did give up because frankie broke his will.

oggy420 wrote:

Bj did give up because frankie broke his will.

Exactly, looks like it happened in round 1 IMO. I think Gray did the same to Kenny in round 1.

and yea wolf they are excuses. All i ever hear when Bj loses a fight are excuses. it's always "oh well if bj trained hard and was in shape he would have won". This is basically the same thing you are saying when you ask if Frankie would have beaten the "real" bj. Im sick of it. In this sport you can not skate by on natural ability. Not when guys like Frankie Edgar are in the gym busting their balls and doing everything they can to evolve their game. BJ penn's lack of dedication to training is a big part of the reason he lost. His ego is the reason he was blown out.

Quote :

and yea wolf they are excuses. All i ever hear when Bj loses a fight are excuses. it's always "oh well if bj trained hard and was in shape he would have won". This is basically the same thing you are saying when you ask if Frankie would have beaten the "real" bj. Im sick of it. In this sport you can not skate by on natural ability. Not when guys like Frankie Edgar are in the gym busting their balls and doing everything they can to evolve their game. BJ penn's lack of dedication to training is a big part of the reason he lost. His ego is the reason he was blown out.

So you agree with the basic premise anyway, but when others say it it's excuses. Um ok. Some of you are a little hypersensitive to "BJ huggers" and the idea of excuses after every loss that the very act of discussing the loss and the circumstances around it is considered excuse making. You're seeing things that aren't there.

What I saw that was there was BJ looking like a broken, old fighter.

You can be sick of it, but when it's the truth and an established pattern you'll have to deal with it. The same will be true of Lebron unless he wins a title. Indeed the same will likely be true if he doesn't win 3+ titles.

there you go again. Broken Old fighter? 5 months ago he was a dominant champion thought to have no real challengers at his weight class. Now he is an old broken fighter? Im just not buying that wolf. Bj has met someone who finally has his number. Plain and simple. Frankie Edgar is a better fighter. He has evolved his game much more than Bj has. Stop looking for reasons and explanations that aren't there.

And where do i agree with your premise? You are saying he is old, broken, and not the same fighter. I on the other hand am saying that he is exactly the same fighter, and exactly the same guy who has tried to skate by on natural ability instead of getting with a real training camp and evolving his game. He has now faced reality. Frankie Edgar's work ethic and dedication to evolving has spring boarded him past BJ Penn and quite frankly left him in the dust.

Also, you know that styles make fights. Bj and his training team are just completely clueless as to how to solve Frankie's style. That does play a role in this.

Bj looked a lil outta shape to me? lil flabby and timid almost....maybe Edgars speed just made him look bad. Was shocked for sure that he didnt bring his A game!

Oggy I already explained old overnight. Look no further than Chuck Liddell or Roy Jones for the highs and lows that come at the end of a dominant career. This aint nothin new man. Why can't you grasp the concept? Why do you keep referencing dominant performances from a year ago? How many 30+ year old pitchers stuff have you seen fall apart over the same amount of time, never to return to form?

With BJ, all of this is going to be connected. His age, his work ethic and his mentality, all of it. His natural youthful off-the-couch-and-into-the-cage ability is starting to fail him and I think it's effecting him. He has no desire to put in the extra training fighting requires as you age. Any athlete will tell you once you cross the line into your 30's it takes more work than ever to stay in top form. His mind and body look burnt out and exhausted from the hard camps he put in in 09, with that new strength coach and everything.

Could BJ if he wanted to, I mean really wanted to get back into fighting shape and be dominant? Maybe. Kings would argue definitely. But if the first Edgar loss didn't motivate him, and he is resigned to this one, what's going to bring him back? Right now it looks like nothing can.

Whether it's purely physical or emotional, or a likely combination of the two, whatever BJ had a year ago is gone. It didn't go away over night either. He fought under his ability in Abu Dubai as well. The decline is measurable over his last two fights.

BJ Penn looks and acts and sounds like a finished, broken fighter to me. I don't think the exact reasons really matter that much. If he's done, he's done. Being "washed up" isn't a purely physical concept.

honestly im not even reading that. I've said what i have to say. We are not going to agree on this. Let's leave it at that.

I don't like categorizing the world with simple black and white notions that explain away everything like "oh styles just make fights" when the reality is more complex. That just doesn't fit this situation. Edgar came in looking better than ever, Penn looking worse than ever. We have another fight to judge the two on and in that fight Penn won.* How then could it be as simple as a style nightmare? This isn't to say Edgar's style isn't a nightmare for Penn, but it's silly and almost delusional to say that is the only reason.

I still believe that BJ at the height of his mental and physical powers would beat Edgar. It's not "nuthuggery" of "hating". It's an opinion that isn't shared only by "huggers" or "haters". If anything, BJ's haters will likely run with the chance to finish tearing BJ down with this kind of thinking. This isn't making excuses, this is just how it is with BJ Penn. He's a front runner who's lost his burst off the line. What else can he do?

It is, what it is. That's all it is.



*according to nearly everyone in the universe.

oh jesus, i posted again before I read "hey im oggy, im an ignorant bastard with stupid opinions who doesn't even read what others say"


figured, you probably didn't read my other replies to your stupidity. That is why you still disagree in the first place. You're not entirely illogical. You're just lazy. An idiot either way. I'm done with you for today oggy. You've exhausted my good will. Dismissed.

Forgive me oggy. But I'm sure you're used to people lashing out at you for being...you, by now.

wolf sorry but im not getting sucked into your game anymore. You are now trying to make this a personal attack so this is where i will leave you. Maybe you should start targeting some new prey.

he beat the real penn, the one who wasnt fast enough in exchanges, didnt use kicks to slow his opponant and couldnt use guard to submit.

florian chocked and yes I agree with dana and diego was as good as it gets for penn lately.

There is no game ogster, there is just a balance between me, you and my tolerance of you. Sometimes the balance tips.

Rumors are starting to fly around...
first one is that Penn trained only 3 days a week coming in to 118
second is that he had a tough time cutting weight...

No. That's just an excuse, shut up chicken. BJ Penn was the best he'd ever been. Frankie Edgar is just somehow the best fighter to ever weigh 155 pounds in human history all of a sudden, remember?

LMAO, how could I forget...

......