The Mongoose! Archie Moore! Here is the Ring's justification.
Rocky Marciano fans will be aghast at our choice, which is understandable. The late heavyweight champion finished his career with a record of 49-0 (43 knockouts), which speaks for itself. Plus, he beat Moore head to head. The problem is this: Marciano’s overall body of work is inferior to that of the Old Mongoose. Marciano successfully defended the heavyweight title only six times before retiring prematurely at 32. And he beat only two truly elite fighters, Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles (twice each). Joe Louis was badly faded when he was stopped by Marciano in 1951. Meanwhile, Moore fought and beat some of the best fighters ever in a remarkable 28-year career, in which he scored an all-time record number of knockouts.
As much as I admire the Rock, I agree with this. Moore went 14-10 against HOFers. Six of those losses were to heavyweight champions Ezzard Charles, Floyd Patterson, Muhammad Ali and of course Rocky Marciano.
The honorable mentions were Marciano, Floyd Mayweather Junior, Terrible Terry McGovern, Jimmy McLarnin and Carlos Monzon. They only pick five and I wish Erik Morales had gotten a mention.
The footage they show of the Durelle fight doesn't show the incredible heart of Archie Moore. This one is better. Ask yourself how the heck Moore got up from that first knockdown at the one minute mark to survive. Part of the answer is the ref. The Boston Gob himself, former heavyweight champion Jack Sharkey.
Birdofthad Platinum Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Ken shamrock, Frank Shamrock, Guy Mezger, Pete Williams, you get it Lions Den Posts : 17542 Join date : 2009-07-19 Age : 37 Location : D Town
Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:14 am
i DONT knot whats sadder
that they had to give an explanation of their pick or that Floyd Mayweahter Jr was given serious consideration
TAKE A BOW MR MOORE you deserve it
without a doubt
argue this and i will internet pimp smack you
Birdofthad Platinum Belt
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Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:16 am
ARCHIE ARCHIE ARCHIE ARCHIE
Sorry i am yelling in ny apartment at 4 in the morning
ARCHIE ARCHIE ARCHIE ARCHIE!!!!!!!!!!!!
4445Frank Purple Belt
Posts : 1517 Join date : 2010-04-09
Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:26 am
Well, they're probably right about the Marciano fans reaction. I'm a big admirer of "The Rock" but I understand the decision. During his best years, Moore used to write letters to sports writers explaining why he deserved a shot at the title. Though he got his opportunities late, it was still evident that he was a very special fighter. That said, I've noticed that out of the 3 most popular fighters in history, Ali, Louis and Marciano, only Louis has come away with special honors. Just an observation.
4445Frank Purple Belt
Posts : 1517 Join date : 2010-04-09
Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:01 am
The "N,s" Ken Norton (God help us), Azumah Nelson (Now I'm relieved), Battling nelson, drawing a blank as usual. My pick is Azumah Nelson. Of course, Marble will change my mind by mentioning 20 fighters with the letter "N" that are probably better.
dmar5143 Purple Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : marciano pep robinson greb manny pac Posts : 1619 Join date : 2010-05-12 Age : 81 Location : charlotte nc
Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:17 am
frank i agree with you and then some..first ring choses moore and in the same sentence stated rocky beat 2 elite fighters only..what about moore..contrary to what many think archie was 1.light heavy champ at the time and 2 still in his prime..yes he was folks fighting and beating some ranked heavies and top lhs.archie reached his pinnacle in what ill call his second prime.like every fighter that fought marciano there prime ended after that fight..noo one after fighting rocky was ever the same.they either retired right after that fight which a third of rockys oponents did or it was downhill from there..rex layne at 35-1 and a favorite it that fight was never the same nor was harry kid matthews or lastarza charles and yes archie. thats a x and o noo one considers.. for archie may have the knockout record but rocky destroyed fighters and there careers.it should of been rocky..no if ands or buts as far as im concerened..archie number 2 but its a resonable choice because of archies greatness its just not the correct choice..now all the marciano haters and soo called experts can yell at me that im wrong..ill agree with frank...ohh yes impact on boxing a factor that was going to be considered...hmmm outside maybe louis nooo one yes noo one had a more favorable impact on boxing via a refreshing decent humble classy dignified image of a champion then rocky..he and joe defined the word champ..even boxing illustrated right after rockys death said that..he was what the word champ ment..to the point there fighter of the years trophy was a image of the rock similar to the super bowl calling the trophy the lombardi throphy..now thats a eternal impact of the highest honor....joe louis said amoung other things when he heared of rockys death was...somehow the word champion will never mean the same to me..i feel the same way joe.
4445Frank Purple Belt
Posts : 1517 Join date : 2010-04-09
Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:55 am
dmar5143 wrote:
frank i agree with you and then some..first ring choses moore and in the same sentence stated rocky beat 2 elite fighters only..what about moore..contrary to what many think archie was 1.light heavy champ at the time and 2 still in his prime..yes he was folks fighting and beating some ranked heavies and top lhs.archie reached his pinnacle in what ill call his second prime.like every fighter that fought marciano there prime ended after that fight..noo one after fighting rocky was ever the same.they either retired right after that fight which a third of rockys oponents did or it was downhill from there..rex layne at 35-1 and a favorite it that fight was never the same nor was harry kid matthews or lastarza charles and yes archie. thats a x and o noo one considers.. for archie may have the knockout record but rocky destroyed fighters and there careers.it should of been rocky..no if ands or buts as far as im concerened..archie number 2 but its a resonable choice because of archies greatness its just not the correct choice..now all the marciano haters and soo called experts can yell at me that im wrong..ill agree with frank...ohh yes impact on boxing a factor that was going to be considered...hmmm outside maybe louis nooo one yes noo one had a more favorable impact on boxing via a refreshing decent humble classy dignified image of a champion then rocky..he and joe defined the word champ..even boxing illustrated right after rockys death said that..he was what the word champ ment..to the point there fighter of the years trophy was a image of the rock similar to the super bowl calling the trophy the lombardi throphy..now thats a eternal impact of the highest honor....joe louis said amoung other things when he heared of rockys death was...somehow the word champion will never mean the same to me..i feel the same way joe.
dmar, I agree with every word written here. I have tremendous admiration for Archie Moore, yet I just think that Marciano was a flat out better figther and had a greater impact on the sport than Moore. Moore did peak late in his career, something his supporters don't admit. I can't go to war with those who picked Moore, because he was always one of my favorite fighters to watch and listen to. That said, it seems like the writers at "Ring Mag" may be more interested in the element of surprise than actually picking the best fighter.
captainanddew Brown Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Ricky Burns Posts : 2946 Join date : 2010-05-22 Age : 47 Location : Richmond, Virginia
Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:16 am
Ring's entire list jumped the shark a little after they revealed "I".
powerpuncher Green Belt
Posts : 635 Join date : 2010-05-14
Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:48 am
i see no problem with picking moore because of his accomplishments in the ring. beat more HOFers than the rock, has the most KO record, and just his overall competition was better. whether or not marciano was a better fighter, moore was more accomplished i think and thats what pretty much everyone on this board goes off of anyway. if we were saying who was an actual better fighter then i think that a lot of peoples p4p list would be different.
but i would have no problem with them picking rocky. im just stating the other side of the story why ring would pick moore.
powerpuncher Green Belt
Posts : 635 Join date : 2010-05-14
Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:49 am
Birdofthad wrote:
i DONT knot whats sadder
that they had to give an explanation of their pick or that Floyd Mayweahter Jr was given serious consideration
TAKE A BOW MR MOORE you deserve it
without a doubt
argue this and i will internet pimp smack you
i dont see a problem with giving mayweather an honorable mention. he is a great fighter and accomplished. i agree with marble though, i wish that morales would have gotten a mention but i guess the other honorable mentions were pretty good fighters too.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:05 pm
Its not a bad pick but I would have chose Marciano. Let me ask you guys this. When we make our all time p4p lists do you put Moore ahead of Marciano? I didnt. So how can you put him ahead here? Just an observation.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:10 pm
Moore fought and beat alot more HOFers during his career Mark, he was also a multiple division champ.
Marciano impressive as he was never really beat a HOFer who was in his prime.
dmar5143 Purple Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : marciano pep robinson greb manny pac Posts : 1619 Join date : 2010-05-12 Age : 81 Location : charlotte nc
Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:41 pm
ali first moore WAS NOT a multi division champ..walcott WAS in his prime.sorry a rare late bloomer..so was moore..charles was at the downside of his PRIME and not at the downside of his career untill after the marciano fight...matthews layne lastarza vingo all very good fighters were at the zenith of there prime.to say that rocky did not beat ANY hofamers in there prime is shear BS.prime at times has nothing to do with age..max baer and benetiz at 25 years old for example which almost everyone perhaps but me feels is the prime years..both were washed up or on the downside of there career or heading that way..walcott and moore on the other hand are and were the complete oposite.walcotts best fighting years was the last 4 years or so of his career..moores was up untill the marciano fight..there realy should be resonable agreement there..its called prime not based on age but performance i feel..dispite the great moore record rocky was the greater fighter period..
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:46 pm
My bad for some reason I mistakenly believed Moore captured the Heavyweight title, he didn't but he did try against Marciano and Patterson.
Moore's body of work is still superior to Marciano's who only defended his title six times. Joe Louis was very faded when Marciano beat him.
marbleheadmaui Red Belt
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Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:50 pm
4445Frank wrote:
The "N,s" Ken Norton (God help us), Azumah Nelson (Now I'm relieved), Battling nelson, drawing a blank as usual. My pick is Azumah Nelson. Of course, Marble will change my mind by mentioning 20 fighters with the letter "N" that are probably better.
The only four names I could come up with are Azumah, Norton (my reaction same as yours), Jose Napoles and Battling Nelson. I have no idea who how to decide between Azumah and Napoles. Two tremendous fighters.
marbleheadmaui Red Belt
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Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:51 pm
soonermark890 wrote:
Its not a bad pick but I would have chose Marciano. Let me ask you guys this. When we make our all time p4p lists do you put Moore ahead of Marciano? I didnt. So how can you put him ahead here? Just an observation.
I do.
I can also understand the other side of the argument.
4445Frank Purple Belt
Posts : 1517 Join date : 2010-04-09
Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:57 pm
marbleheadmaui wrote:
4445Frank wrote:
The "N,s" Ken Norton (God help us), Azumah Nelson (Now I'm relieved), Battling nelson, drawing a blank as usual. My pick is Azumah Nelson. Of course, Marble will change my mind by mentioning 20 fighters with the letter "N" that are probably better.
The only four names I could come up with are Azumah, Norton (my reaction same as yours), Jose Napoles and Battling Nelson. I have no idea who how to decide between Azumah and Napoles. Two tremendous fighters.
Thanks Marble. Out of those choices, I'm going with "The Professor." I still can't forget him travelling down under and giving Jeff Fenech a boxing lesson he'll never forget. He's a personal favorite of mine. I won't complain if they pick Napoles.
marbleheadmaui Red Belt
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Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:01 pm
dmar5143 wrote:
frank i agree with you and then some..first ring choses moore and in the same sentence stated rocky beat 2 elite fighters only..what about moore..contrary to what many think archie was 1.light heavy champ at the time and 2 still in his prime..yes he was folks fighting and beating some ranked heavies and top lhs.archie reached his pinnacle in what ill call his second prime.like every fighter that fought marciano there prime ended after that fight..noo one after fighting rocky was ever the same.they either retired right after that fight which a third of rockys oponents did or it was downhill from there..rex layne at 35-1 and a favorite it that fight was never the same nor was harry kid matthews or lastarza charles and yes archie. thats a x and o noo one considers.. for archie may have the knockout record but rocky destroyed fighters and there careers.it should of been rocky..no if ands or buts as far as im concerened..archie number 2 but its a resonable choice because of archies greatness its just not the correct choice..now all the marciano haters and soo called experts can yell at me that im wrong..ill agree with frank...ohh yes impact on boxing a factor that was going to be considered...hmmm outside maybe louis nooo one yes noo one had a more favorable impact on boxing via a refreshing decent humble classy dignified image of a champion then rocky..he and joe defined the word champ..even boxing illustrated right after rockys death said that..he was what the word champ ment..to the point there fighter of the years trophy was a image of the rock similar to the super bowl calling the trophy the lombardi throphy..now thats a eternal impact of the highest honor....joe louis said amoung other things when he heared of rockys death was...somehow the word champion will never mean the same to me..i feel the same way joe.
The bold is, I think, the crux of the debate. Rock clearly finished off Ezzard, but Ezzard had lost to Nino Valdes and Harold Johnson the year prior too so wasn't he already sliding? Walcott had lost two of his last four when Marciano ruined him as well. No question you are right on Rex Layne and LaStarza after the second fight. He didn't ruin Matthews, probably because he got him so quick
You make a REALLY good point here.
The outside the ring stuff you are right on as well. Marciano was an exemplary champion.
The two heavyweights I struggle to understand most are Dempsey and the Rock. I just go back and forth on how to think about them.
For me, at least today, Moore's sheer volume of work carries the day...but that's today.
marbleheadmaui Red Belt
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Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:03 pm
4445Frank wrote:
marbleheadmaui wrote:
4445Frank wrote:
The "N,s" Ken Norton (God help us), Azumah Nelson (Now I'm relieved), Battling nelson, drawing a blank as usual. My pick is Azumah Nelson. Of course, Marble will change my mind by mentioning 20 fighters with the letter "N" that are probably better.
The only four names I could come up with are Azumah, Norton (my reaction same as yours), Jose Napoles and Battling Nelson. I have no idea who how to decide between Azumah and Napoles. Two tremendous fighters.
Thanks Marble. Out of those choices, I'm going with "The Professor." I still can't forget him travelling down under and giving Jeff Fenech a boxing lesson he'll never forget. He's a personal favorite of mine. I won't complain if they pick Napoles.
Wasn't that whole scene magnificent? Fenech's fans going crazy, all the flags all over the place and then Azumah acting all the way like a king and almost disdainfully wrecking Fenech?
marbleheadmaui Red Belt
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Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:05 pm
captainanddew wrote:
Ring's entire list jumped the shark a little after they revealed "I".
Yeah that was lousy as was the non-mention of Harold Johnson. But come on, this is fun, isn't it?
marbleheadmaui Red Belt
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Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:07 pm
powerpuncher wrote:
i see no problem with picking moore because of his accomplishments in the ring. beat more HOFers than the rock, has the most KO record, and just his overall competition was better. whether or not marciano was a better fighter, moore was more accomplished i think and thats what pretty much everyone on this board goes off of anyway. if we were saying who was an actual better fighter then i think that a lot of peoples p4p list would be different.
but i would have no problem with them picking rocky. im just stating the other side of the story why ring would pick moore.
My problem is I literally don't know what "better" means in boxing if it doesn't mean more accomplished. I'm not trying to be cute. Can someone tell me what "better" means?
dmar5143 Purple Belt
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Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:09 pm
realy a better body of work..yes archie beat a few more hall of famers then rocky..who are some and who was in there prime..3 of them bobo olsen jimmy bivins and joey maxim are hofamers..soo is jose torress ingo johannson and jimmy bradcock..none belong in the hall none..like all hall of fames there are folks in it unworthy..lloyd marshall was well past his prime..he lost far more then he won or as many in his last 4 years of fighting..not in his prime..harold johnson yes was in his prime..the bo hop of his day.extra boring defensive tech fighter..at least joe louis had 8 or 9 straight wins before rocky and of course against the X and OS all ranked fighters..the quality of hall of famers including a win over archie i feel is better then archies hofame wins for reasons given..now if you feel archie was the greaster fighter this again is a major example of underating rocky which is done a lot and overestimating the hofamers archie beat..
dmar5143 Purple Belt
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Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:14 pm
marble better is better period..it dont mean fighting 150 times and that stuff..your the school of thought archie was better then rocky..interesting very interesting.then hes better then ali..he accomplished more.did he not..better then duran also..better then rocky dispite there the same size and fought each other in yes there primes..rockys last fight..can we say it was at the end of rockys prime then..
marbleheadmaui Red Belt
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Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:20 pm
dmar5143 wrote:
realy a better body of work..yes archie beat a few more hall of famers then rocky..who are some and who was in there prime..3 of them bobo olsen jimmy bivins and joey maxim are hofamers..soo is jose torress ingo johannson and jimmy bradcock..none belong in the hall none..like all hall of fames there are folks in it unworthy..lloyd marshall was well past his prime..he lost far more then he won or as many in his last 4 years of fighting..not in his prime..harold johnson yes was in his prime..the bo hop of his day.extra boring defensive tech fighter..at least joe louis had 8 or 9 straight wins before rocky and of course against the X and OS all ranked fighters..the quality of hall of famers including a win over archie i feel is better then archies hofame wins for reasons given..now if you feel archie was the greaster fighter this again is a major example of underating rocky which is done a lot and overestimating the hofamers archie beat..
I will grant that the HOFers Moore defeated, with the exception of Harold Johnson, were lower tier HOFers (now THAT is a weird way to think).
I think Archie accomplished more and I know no other way to think about it. I'm wide open though.
marbleheadmaui Red Belt
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Subject: Re: THE BEST EVER-THE LETTER "M" Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:27 pm
dmar5143 wrote:
marble better is better period..it dont mean fighting 150 times and that stuff..your the school of thought archie was better then rocky..interesting very interesting.then hes better then ali..he accomplished more.did he not..better then duran also..better then rocky dispite there the same size and fought each other in yes there primes..rockys last fight..can we say it was at the end of rockys prime then..
But Archie DIDN'T accomplish more than Ali. Ali had a far better record against HOF fighters, defeated higher quality opposition and revolutionized a division. Don't misunderstand me. It is not mere volume that carries the day. But high-quality high-volume is better than high-quality low-volume, isn't it?
Again I am not trying to be a jerk. But "better is better" doesn't help me. How do I measure it? How do I know it? How do I explain it? How do I compare?
It can't be based on head to head alone, not in boxing. If all it means is "I know it when I see it?" Then we can't really discuss it because it runs to taste.
I suppose one could say in this case Marciano was never beaten and he fought enough of the top guys of his time for that to mean something and Archie Moore was never invincible.
As for Rocky's prime? It's impossible to know how much longer he would have lasted, but it looks to me like he retired in his prime.