Gap between Champs and Contenders?

Am I just being a prisoner of the moment or do you guys think there is a pretty large gap in between the UFC champs and the top contenders?

It seems like most everything I'm reading says that BJ is close to unbeatable at 155, GSP can't be touched in WW, Silva is untouched at middleweight, Machida seems head and shoulders above the deep LHW division. And I know it's early but Brock seems to be the best heavy in the UFC without much question.

What do you guys think?

I think both Diego Sanchez and Gray Maynard can give BJ a good run for his money.

BJ & Brock can be beaten.

Hendo has an outside shot at upsetting Silva, but other than that Silva is champ til he retires or vacates the belt.

Machida is good, but he'll be figured and eventually decrowned.

I see no at WW bating GSP for a long long long time.

Brock is the most beatable. That division is all size and hulk power. Other guys have that too. Anyway Brock is just a paper champ, who are real tests for Fedor? None.

FW and BW are relatively wide open.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Brock is the most beatable. That division is all size and hulk power. Other guys have that too. Anyway Brock is just a paper champ, who are real tests for Fedor? None.

FW and BW are relatively wide open.

Brock is a legit test for Fedor.

FW is loaded at the top with Brown, Faber, Aldo, and Fab.

BW is probably down to two. Torres will get a rematch and maybe take the belt back.

Brock will get destroyed by Fedor.

As far as skill and technique, I dont' think anyone in their divisions is as good as BJ, GSP, or Silva. However, BJ is definitely beatable (Sanchez and possibly Maynard), GSP is beatable but, only if a fighter can be found with his wrestling ability and Alves' striking ability (hard find), and Silva is beatable, but a perfect gameplan has to be followed (ie. round 1 against Hendo or Lutter).

As for Machida, I see several guys who, skill for skill, are as good as him. He has a unique style but will eventually be figured out (who knows how long that will take though).

As for Lesnar, I suspect that he is probably the most beatable of the 5 UFC champs, mostly due to his lack of experience. He can be beat on his feet, but just like GSP, a fighter has to be able to stay on their feet IMO to beat him. His top game bjj is very impressive and its hard to imagine him being on bottom, though stranger things have happened. I would pick Fedor over Lesnar, but since that is not even on the table, no point in that topic.

Besides Anderson, who figuratively or literally could touch Machida? Who is skill for skill the best test for him? Forrest? Page? Naw dude. St8 trippin.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Besides Anderson, who figuratively or literally could touch Machida? Who is skill for skill the best test for him? Forrest? Page? Naw dude. St8 trippin.

I think Shogun will give him a real good fight, Jon Jones (in a year or two), Rampage would give him a good fight, Mo Lawal (in a year or two), etc.

Rampage would be a long an extended one sided beat down of legendary proportions simply because Rampage can take tremendous punishment. Jon Jones was getting tagged left and right against Jake O'Brien. Had O'Brien better power that fight is over early in the first. Mo Lawal? Be fucking real.

The only guy with a chance outside of Rua is Luiz Cane, but he's not black, so you've slept on him.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Rampage would be a long an extended one sided beat down of legendary proportions simply because Rampage can take tremendous punishment. Jon Jones was getting tagged left and right against Jake O'Brien. Had O'Brien better power that fight is over early in the first. Mo Lawal? Be fucking real.

The only guy with a chance outside of Rua is Luiz Cane, but he's not black, so you've slept on him.

I didn't even realize that the 3 I listed were all black until you said that, but regardless, the fact that this is what you got out of my thread, shows a lot. Further, I didn't sleep on Luiz Cane, I was instead thinking of matchups that would give Machida problems (ie. explosive wrestlers...although Rampage is slowing becoming less of that then he used to be) Also, I did say Rua as well. Anyway, in mma, lots of people have good chances and to call fighters unbeatable is crazy. Additionally, your outright dismissal of Mo Lawal is something that within the next 2 years, you will be recanting. Same goes for Jon Jones. If you looked at my picks based on their skillsets, you will see that the commonality is explosive wrestlers, regardless of their race. Most people on here said Rashad had a bad gameplan, and I agree. What did he not do in their fight? Use his explosive wrestling to offset Machida's striking. He paid dearly for it.

Ortiz has similar MMA wrestling credentials and Soko has world elite Judo skills and Machida handled that bidnizz.

I know exactly who Mo is and have been watching him since he started, and Jones has been on my radar for a while too. These guys just took up striking in the last couple years, Machida has been at this for twenty five in one form or another. It will take them years above years to master what Machida has mastered.

They are Evans two or three years ago. Look how that turned out.


And anyway, Machida has been wrestling since he was a boy as well.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Ortiz has similar MMA wrestling credentials and Soko has world elite Judo skills and Machida handled that bidnizz.

I know exactly who Mo is and have been watching him since he started, and Jones has been on my radar for a while too. These guys just took up striking in the last couple years, Machida has been at this for twenty five in one form or another. It will take them years above years to master what Machida has mastered.

They are Evans two or three years ago. Look how that turned out.


And anyway, Machida has been wrestling since he was a boy as well.

First, Ortiz does not have the wrestling credentials of Mo Lawal (2-time DI all american, olympic alternate). Second, the only guy to really be able to successfully implement his judo without a gi in mma has been Karo. Third, I didn't accuse you of not knowing who Lawal was, just that he will be better then you think. Fourth, Lawal and Jones are far ahead of where Rashad WAS striking wise in the begining of his career. Fifth, I never said Lawal or Jones would do well to strike with Machida. In fact, I stated the exact OPPOSITE, so pointing out how far behind they are in striking compared to Machida is moot since I wasn't arguing that point. Tell me, what was your criticism of how Evans fought Machida? Clearly, he shouldnt have been looking to strike with him.

Seriously, at LW BJ is miles ahead of the group. He won't allow Maynard to get on him and LnP. Hell, I'd bet he'd submit Maynard within the first two rounds. As I've said before the only advantage Diego has on BJ is size. And Edgar isn't a threat either.

At WW, Jimbo says it take a guy with GSP's wrestling (Maybe the best in all MMA) and Alves striking... Okay, so we agree it will take Clark Kent coming out of Smallville to the UFC.

At MW, I think we are all pretty much in agreement that Silva is miles ahead and isn't losing short of a surprise flying scissor by the 54th ranked fighter...

At LHW, Machida's style has proven to be a problem for everyone so far. But remember, he has zero defenses and at one time we all though that Chuck Liddell was in a league of his own. I'm not saying he loses first defense, but I'm not going to be surprised if Shogun is the fighter to stay patient and fight his game. Machida feasts on overly aggressive and impatient fghters. I think that if Hendo and Rampage could stay patient and pick their spots, they could possibly crack this petrified nut as well.

At HW, Brock is really untested. I honestly don't think that Cain or Carwin have the skillsets to overcome his size and power. I do however think that Nog could take him down, as long as it's not the Nog that stepped into the octagon against Mir. Nog can take a beating and lull a frustrated Brock into a dumb mistake and submission.

I have to agree with the OP to an extent. When BJ dominated Kenny, my first thought was that it's possible that all 5 champs could stay champ for a long time. Will it happen? Probably not. But I think it is more possible than any time in recent memory.

I don't know that Jones or Mo are that far ahead of the Rashad that was destroying Brad Imes really. Sloppy striking defense on both of them.

I said MMA wrestling credentials, not wrestling pedigree. And you're right about the judo point, and I am a critic of judo in MMA in general, but Soko is at team quest which is a greco oriented place and can fine tune top judo skills into good MMA greco. That win is still relevant to the discussion. As is the Nakamura win.

IMO, Machida is going to have to be defeated by someone with a striking background who can geijitsu with him. Liddell was champion until he faded on his feet. The same will be true here. Luiz Cane and Steve Cantwell may be his future foils.

And if it's a ground fighter, it's going to have to be someone with more than a few years in the game like Mo and Jones. Those are top 25 prospects.

LTFG - Shogun's only asset is speed, his defense is still horrible. He still leaves his face wide open when he swings. Machida round 2 TKO.

His defense isn't great but far from horrible. He has taken down some pretty damn good strikers without getting Gumped. My biggest concern with him is whether or not his fight against Liddell was him being back to true form or not, and whether or not he can handle Machida if it goes to the ground. If he is back to true form and he stays patient and picks his spots, I think he has the tools to pose a serious threat.

JimboJones1 wrote:

As for Machida, I see several guys who, skill for skill, are as good as him. He has a unique style but will eventually be figured out (who knows how long that will take though).

what's funny is that you act like machida's unique style is like some cheap parlor trick where once you figure it out, he would get easily owned. i tell you this right now, no one is on par with machida when it comes to fighting skills. machida has not only mastered the art of fighting, but has gone on to create a new style, that is the amalgam of all the traditional styles. dont be fooled into thinking his style is just some parlor trick. there is a simple answer to why no one has figure him out yet: no one has reach his level of understanding of the martial arts and hand to hand combat.

i dont think the 5 champs right now, will loose for awhile, although i do think diego has the best chance of dethroning BJ.

thedarkwingduck2k50 wrote:

JimboJones1 wrote:

As for Machida, I see several guys who, skill for skill, are as good as him. He has a unique style but will eventually be figured out (who knows how long that will take though).

what's funny is that you act like machida's unique style is like some cheap parlor trick where once you figure it out, he would get easily owned. i tell you this right now, no one is on par with machida when it comes to fighting skills. machida has not only mastered the art of fighting, but has gone on to create a new style, that is the amalgam of all the traditional styles. dont be fooled into thinking his style is just some parlor trick. there is a simple answer to why no one has figure him out yet: no one has reach his level of understanding of the martial arts and hand to hand combat.

Unique style is not equivalent to asserting he is a parlor trick. I would never say that for one, and two, to think he has "mastered" the art of fighting is naive. Nobody can "master" fighting. Its an on going evolution and progression. Also, I would like to add that in my opinion, Anderson would beat him. Not sure why you took so much offense to the fact that I pointed out that nobody has been able to effecutate a gameplan that works against him. You sound like you think he will never lose.

Penn(155): Only really Maynard has a chance IMO.

GSP(170): No one.

Anderson(185): Hendo, Improved Nate, and Maia have a chance.

Machida(205): Maybe Shogun, Cane, and Rampage its a stretch though.

Brock(265): Maybe Carwin or Cain.

Why only Maynard? We've seen top wrestles like GSP & Hughes struggle to get BJ down and they were way bigger than BJ. Maynard won't have the same size advantage. Plus Maynard's stand up isn't in the same league as BJs. I'd say Diego has the best shot or someone from the 170 class dropping down with good stand up.

JimboJones1 wrote:

thedarkwingduck2k50 wrote:

JimboJones1 wrote:

As for Machida, I see several guys who, skill for skill, are as good as him. He has a unique style but will eventually be figured out (who knows how long that will take though).

what's funny is that you act like machida's unique style is like some cheap parlor trick where once you figure it out, he would get easily owned. i tell you this right now, no one is on par with machida when it comes to fighting skills. machida has not only mastered the art of fighting, but has gone on to create a new style, that is the amalgam of all the traditional styles. dont be fooled into thinking his style is just some parlor trick. there is a simple answer to why no one has figure him out yet: no one has reach his level of understanding of the martial arts and hand to hand combat.

Unique style is not equivalent to asserting he is a parlor trick. I would never say that for one, and two, to think he has "mastered" the art of fighting is naive. Nobody can "master" fighting. Its an on going evolution and progression. Also, I would like to add that in my opinion, Anderson would beat him. Not sure why you took so much offense to the fact that I pointed out that nobody has been able to effecutate a gameplan that works against him. You sound like you think he will never lose.

well you got your opinions...sorry jimbo, i'm just a big machida nuthugger...i think i get emotional when people say this person or that person can beat machida when no one has damaged or rocked him in a fight...do these two things first and i'll start believing he can lose, otherwise i will continue to believe he is an infallible fighter.

BJ- Maynard but i doubt it

GSP- Maybe shields... highly doubtfull....an improved alves... gsp pretty much owns the WW division though

Silva- Hendo has a chance but not a good one.

Machida- If anderson ever fights him he will win. Shogun and cane.

Fedor- Ummm..... maybe lesnar or the other big wrestlers. Naw never mind.