GUYS I GET AND GUYS I DON'T

Often I see folks write someone is under or overrated without specifying by what standard or compared to whom. I can never figure out what they mean. But let me try it this way. Here are five guys I just don't really get their general reputation and five guys I absolutely find extraordinary who often don't appear in those discussions. In no order

I DON'T GET

Stanley Ketchell-He was absolutely worshipped by the boxing cognoscenti of the day. A murderous, whirlwind puncher who cleaned out the division. My problem is the footage of him that I've seen are from when Jack Johnson dominated him and the fourth Billy Papke fight which was a desultory affair, and was written about as such by those at ringside. I also can't find any footage of the other top guys he defeated so as to examine them either. I just am not convinced he was a top five middle...but I'd love to have seen the Langford fight.

Barry McGuigan-This is a hard one for me because I love the guy. He's Irish, he was a unifying force during the late troubles and the crowds he generated were extraordinary. He also provided an immensely moving moment after he won the featherweight crown by dedicating his win to a fighter he'd killed in the ring early in his career. A really, really good fighter. The HOF??????? Come on guys, get real.

Arturo Gatti-I am not speaking ill of the dead. He was an extraordinary fighting spirit and for a while a world class fighter. But he never met a punch he could dodge and he got blown out the only times he faced truly elite fighters. When your claim to fame is going life and death with Mickey Ward? You simply aren't a great fighter.

Lennox Lewis-Knocked senseless by two different mediocrities while in his prime. Can anyone think of another fighter called "great" for whom that is true?

Packy McFarland-He finished 69-0-5 with 51ko's. The guy clearly had something going on. He had wins over Jack Britton, Owen Moran and Freddie Welsh. But he only got one title shot and it was a draw with Welsh. Doesn't a true ATG find a way to win that title somewhere along the line?

GUYS I LOVE

Richard Ihetu-Dick Tiger learned his craft in the pros. At one point he was 14-7. He kept learning, kept stepping up the competition and when he was fully formed he did nothing in an extraordinary way. He just hit a little harder, took a little better shot, thought a little better and was just a little more determined than the guys he fought. Wins over Joey Giardello, Gene Fulmer (at home in Nigeria), Hurricane Carter, Jose Torres, Nino Benvenuti and Emil Griffith. Undisputed middle and light heavy king. One hell of a fighter and one of the sport's finest human beings.

Jimmy McLarnin-A guy who can readily be measured against guys today. Why? Because hand injuries limited him to 68 fights over 13 years. He defeated ATG flyweight Pancho Villa, ATG feather Bud Taylor, ATG lightweight Kid Kaplan and ATG welter Barney Ross. Oh yeah, he also beat Tony Canzoneri, Lou Brouillard, Young Corbett III, Billy Petrolle and Lou Ambers. 15 wins over HOFers in all. Manny P before Manny P.

Felix Trinidad-An absolute tornado in the 1990's. Just ate up the welters and crushed the best two 154'ss of the day. Oscar ran late for a reason. Yes, Tito got dominated by an ATG 160, no shame in that. No the handwraps were NOT the reason he was great. Huge heart, great will, tenacious and vulnerable. A treat.

John Henry Lewis-97-10 and done when he was 24. A great light heavy in an era full of them. Of his ten losses five came to ranked heavies (including Louis and Braddock) and three others were to ATG Maxie Rosenbloom. Beat upwards of a dozen ranked light heavies. Left the ring as light heavy king when he went blind.

Barbados Joe Walcott-A true freak. A 5'1 welter with a 20 inch neck. Of his 30 or so losses 17 came after he disfigured his right hand in a gun accident and another 8 came to HEAVYWEIGHTS! Walcott was a 5'1 welter for God's sake. Some argue he is a top 3 welter. An extraordinary puncher.

So who do you think the rest of us misunderstand?

HAVE AT IT!

hellooooooo there sir, long time no hear. you are one of the reason i left espn believe it or not since you always bring up great topics.
as far as the topic goes let's not forget lennox came back from those ko's and DOMINATED those opponents and one actually cried lol

RUM CAPITAL wrote:

hellooooooo there sir, long time no hear. you are one of the reason i left espn believe it or not since you always bring up great topics.
as far as the topic goes let's not forget lennox came back from those ko's and DOMINATED those opponents and one actually cried lol

Yup. But how many greats ever had to bother with rematches with mediocrities?

Don't get me wrong, Lennox is what we want in a fighter and he looks better and better given today's state of the heavyweight division. I just don't see him as a top 10 heavy for example.

Stanley Ketchell-He was absolutely worshipped by the boxing cognoscenti of the day. A murderous, whirlwind puncher who cleaned out the division. My problem is the footage of him that I've seen are from when Jack Johnson dominated him and the fourth Billy Papke fight which was a desultory affair, and was written about as such by those at ringside. I also can't find any footage of the other top guys he defeated so as to examine them either. I just am not convinced he was a top five middle...but I'd love to have seen the Langford fight.

Stan Ketchel hung around with the likes of the "Ma Barker Gang" and other Bandit types. Maybe back then, they threatened the boxing press? LOL Seriously, I've seen the same footage of Ketchel that you've seen. Not enough for me to judge what type of fighter he was.

Where Lennox got complaints about some boring fights(fans) and not being great (boxing writers), during his career, now boxing fans remember him as more exciting than he was and boxing writers give him way too much credit.

Lennox came back and dominated those opponents, but he got KO'd by guys that weren't that good.

marble lets see..dick tiger was on my list of a topic started by powerpuncher of great fighters never talked about..a great guy indeed.tough fought a lot of terrific guys and outside of bob foster he was very competitive..john henry lewis not a top ten light heavy but good enought for top 12 or 13..he actualy fought a few years where by todays standards he could be called legaly blind.mcclarnin with us old time fight fans and amatuer historian needs no introduction indeed..
gatti was a glorified club fighter.a top tier crowd pleasing club fighter that the general public highly overated..mickey ward is even worse..mcguigan a nice guy that tv created a hero..less than mediocre talent..the original walcott dam i never knew had a 20 inch neck..a deserving hof a great fighter yes...top 3 welter..i dont think so....lenox lewis can be called a great heavy simply because unlike the welter lightweight and a few other divisions greatness does not run deep..a top ten all time.nope not in my book..a top 16 perhaps yes crowding the bottom part.
like you i have a mixed bag on ketchel..i think he was the rocky graziano of his day with the big punch..a great middleweight yes..a skilled one..noo..although he was koed once by a mediuocre fighter dempsey is comsidered a great one..i think fireman jim flyn was mediocre.surely talent wise mccal and radham had more..in another fight actualy 2 fights the guys name excapes me now had a losing record by far and was a real bum yet in 2 fights he decked dempsey 9 times in the first round of those fights and went the distence with jack...yet all of us surely agree jacks a ATG...lewis i feel is vastly overated but still a great heavy...you brought up a great topic as usual..

dmar5143 wrote:

marble lets see..dick tiger was on my list of a topic started by powerpuncher of great fighters never talked about..a great guy indeed.tough fought a lot of terrific guys and outside of bob foster he was very competitive..john henry lewis not a top ten light heavy but good enought for top 12 or 13..he actualy fought a few years where by todays standards he could be called legaly blind.mcclarnin with us old time fight fans and amatuer historian needs no introduction indeed..
gatti was a glorified club fighter.a top tier crowd pleasing club fighter that the general public highly overated..mickey ward is even worse..mcguigan a nice guy that tv created a hero..less than mediocre talent..the original walcott dam i never knew had a 20 inch neck..a deserving hof a great fighter yes...top 3 welter..i dont think so....lenox lewis can be called a great heavy simply because unlike the welter lightweight and a few other divisions greatness does not run deep..a top ten all time.nope not in my book..a top 16 perhaps yes crowding the bottom part.
like you i have a mixed bag on ketchel..i think he was the rocky graziano of his day with the big punch..a great middleweight yes..a skilled one..noo..although he was koed once by a mediuocre fighter dempsey is comsidered a great one..i think fireman jim flyn was mediocre.surely talent wise mccal and radham had more..in another fight actualy 2 fights the guys name excapes me now had a losing record by far and was a real bum yet in 2 fights he decked dempsey 9 times in the first round of those fights and went the distence with jack...yet all of us surely agree jacks a ATG...lewis i feel is vastly overated but still a great heavy...you brought up a great topic as usual..

Geeze now I gotta go back and figure out who the guy was who kept knocking Dempsey down was. The thing about Dempsey was he was one fighter before he went to Salt Lake and quickly became a great fighter after kearns got him real training and real sparring. But I hear ya!

The Graziano-Ketchell comparison is an interesting one.

marble i agree.dempsey with doc on his team eveolved into a great one..dam jack dempsey mickey walker archie moore.doc did ok for himself huh.

marble the guys named just poped in my head..john sudenberg.

dmar5143 wrote:

marble the guys named just poped in my head..john sudenberg.

ok, now I REALLY gotta pull down my Dempsey Bio's because that name rings no bells at all.