Why was Muhammad Ali such a controversial figure?

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

he happened to weigh in on one of the most controversial times in American history

1 side loved him for his stance, 1 side hated him for his stance

add in he was one of the 3 graetest fighters ever

He honestly wasnt publicly admired or adored like he is today until the Parkinsons stuff came out, that is honestly what put him over the top and why he was voted athlete of the century, his whole legacy compounded wtih the sickness

I know this is kinda fucked up to say but I am glad he has Parkinsons. He deserves it. I know you guys are about to rip me apart for that but the guy was a draft dodger who also had many affairs and was a flat out racist.

Deserves it? And how was he a flat out racist when him and Cosell were always buddy-buddy?

I got no beef with him dodging the war. Why should he risk his life for a country that treated his people so bad? Like Marble said he took a stand, made his point, and did his time.

not trying to dump on Ali

but after Joe Frazier kicks your ass and your excuse is

"It was a white decision"

I can see how people interpret Ali as being racist, add in all his your a white mans champ Uncle Tom talk

marbleheadmaui wrote:

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

he happened to weigh in on one of the most controversial times in American history

1 side loved him for his stance, 1 side hated him for his stance

add in he was one of the 3 graetest fighters ever

He honestly wasnt publicly admired or adored like he is today until the Parkinsons stuff came out, that is honestly what put him over the top and why he was voted athlete of the century, his whole legacy compounded wtih the sickness

I know this is kinda fucked up to say but I am glad he has Parkinsons. He deserves it. I know you guys are about to rip me apart for that but the guy was a draft dodger who also had many affairs and was a flat out racist.

Deserves it? And how was he a flat out racist when him and Cosell were always buddy-buddy?

I got no beef with him dodging the war. Why should he risk his life for a country that treated his people so bad? Like Marble said he took a stand, made his point, and did his time.

VERY hard to make the case Ali wasn't a racist. The guys was an avowed racial seperatist who openly and repeatedly spoke of ALL white men being devils.

he also openly spoke about agreeing with segregation

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Diego408 wrote:

I understand Malcolm X gave Ali the confidence to beat Liston by believing. Was Malcoml X was killed by the Nation of Islam after being enlighten by Sunni islam in his trip to the Mecca? did Elijah put a hit out on him?

X was killed by members of the Nation after a falling out with Elijah Muhammad. That falling out happened BEFORE X traveled to Mecca.

Did Elijah put the hit out? Hard to imagine it happening without his consent and Farrakhan probably had a hand in it as well. Ali claims one of his great regrets was deserting X.

Interesting stuff. No doubt that you're spot with that one, Marble. In relation to Ali and Malcolm X, I hear that X was trying to deliver Cassius Clay to the Muslims as a ticket back in. Elijah M. was embarrassed by Clay and thought he'd be killed by Liston. When Clay won, they immediately ostrasized Malcolm from Clay and took him in as one of their own. One of the most disgusting things I ever heard as a human being was Elijah Muhammad giving a speech following the Liston fight. To quote this mad man, "Sonny Liston thought he was going to mess up your pretty face. But Allah and myself said, noooooooo." To say Ali kept bad company is to say that Bernie Madoff is not too honest of a guy. However, the amazing thing about Ali was his ability to charm anybody.

I stand corrected then. I didnt know about Ali's segregation views.

I knew about him calling Frazier an Uncle Tom but i thought that was just to get under his skin.

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

I stand corrected then. I didnt know about Ali's segregation views.

I knew about him calling Frazier an Uncle Tom but i thought that was just to get under his skin.

Those were some weird, weird times in the USA Slick. Lots of folks doing things they later looked back on and said "I did WHAT?"

marbleheadmaui wrote:

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

I stand corrected then. I didnt know about Ali's segregation views.

I knew about him calling Frazier an Uncle Tom but i thought that was just to get under his skin.

Those were some weird, weird times in the USA Slick. Lots of folks doing things they later looked back on and said "I did WHAT?"

That is the most effective and intelligent comment on this thread. I wanted to say that, but it would mean more coming from you, Marble. You can almost make the comment "I did what?" the theme of the 60s.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

he happened to weigh in on one of the most controversial times in American history

1 side loved him for his stance, 1 side hated him for his stance

add in he was one of the 3 graetest fighters ever

He honestly wasnt publicly admired or adored like he is today until the Parkinsons stuff came out, that is honestly what put him over the top and why he was voted athlete of the century, his whole legacy compounded wtih the sickness

I know this is kinda fucked up to say but I am glad he has Parkinsons. He deserves it. I know you guys are about to rip me apart for that but the guy was a draft dodger who also had many affairs and was a flat out racist.

Deserves it? And how was he a flat out racist when him and Cosell were always buddy-buddy?

I got no beef with him dodging the war. Why should he risk his life for a country that treated his people so bad? Like Marble said he took a stand, made his point, and did his time.

One Have you ever heard any of the shit that came out of his mouth. Hell he followed Malcolm X. There is no doubt he was not a fan of white people. Also why was it ok for all these other people of all sorts of walks in life to fight in that war but not him? Why is it because he is a famous boxer. The guy is and was a piece of shit. I am Native American and my family proudly fought in that war. So lets not play the race card. The guy was a draft dodger no matter how people try to sugar coat it. He should have done time in prison. Instead they stopped him from playing a sport. WOW what an injustice to Ali.

No he wasn't a draft dodger. He was a draft CONFRONTER. he didn't dodge anything. THAT's what made him special. Why was his beef legit? Because the idea of being a conscientious objector has a long an honorable history in this country. Do you really think Ali was insincere? Do you find the idea of conscientious objection odious? Just for the record during Vietnam over 150,000 men obtained such status. So it wasn't just Ali.

So you are telling me he was a Muslim Conscientious Objector? What a joke. He was dodging the war. Even if he wasnt he is still a piece of shit person. Its not against the Muslim religion to go to war. So that argument has no validity.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

he happened to weigh in on one of the most controversial times in American history

1 side loved him for his stance, 1 side hated him for his stance

add in he was one of the 3 graetest fighters ever

He honestly wasnt publicly admired or adored like he is today until the Parkinsons stuff came out, that is honestly what put him over the top and why he was voted athlete of the century, his whole legacy compounded wtih the sickness

I know this is kinda fucked up to say but I am glad he has Parkinsons. He deserves it. I know you guys are about to rip me apart for that but the guy was a draft dodger who also had many affairs and was a flat out racist.

Deserves it? And how was he a flat out racist when him and Cosell were always buddy-buddy?

I got no beef with him dodging the war. Why should he risk his life for a country that treated his people so bad? Like Marble said he took a stand, made his point, and did his time.

One Have you ever heard any of the shit that came out of his mouth. Hell he followed Malcolm X. There is no doubt he was not a fan of white people. Also why was it ok for all these other people of all sorts of walks in life to fight in that war but not him? Why is it because he is a famous boxer. The guy is and was a piece of shit. I am Native American and my family proudly fought in that war. So lets not play the race card. The guy was a draft dodger no matter how people try to sugar coat it. He should have done time in prison. Instead they stopped him from playing a sport. WOW what an injustice to Ali.

No he wasn't a draft dodger. He was a draft CONFRONTER. he didn't dodge anything. THAT's what made him special. Why was his beef legit? Because the idea of being a conscientious objector has a long an honorable history in this country. Do you really think Ali was insincere? Do you find the idea of conscientious objection odious? Just for the record during Vietnam over 150,000 men obtained such status. So it wasn't just Ali.

So you are telling me he was a Muslim Conscientious Objector? What a joke. He was dodging the war. Even if he wasnt he is still a piece of shit person. Its not against the Muslim religion to go to war. So that argument has no validity.

Yeah I am telling you that's EXACTLY what he was. And for Muslims (I can't believe I'm going to defend that festering sore of a mindset), there is, and has been for centuries a strain of pacifist thought , especially in Sufism. The one thing Ali demonstrated in his approach was his sincerity. This wasn't some kind of scam.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

I stand corrected then. I didnt know about Ali's segregation views.

I knew about him calling Frazier an Uncle Tom but i thought that was just to get under his skin.

Those were some weird, weird times in the USA Slick. Lots of folks doing things they later looked back on and said "I did WHAT?"

this

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

he happened to weigh in on one of the most controversial times in American history

1 side loved him for his stance, 1 side hated him for his stance

add in he was one of the 3 graetest fighters ever

He honestly wasnt publicly admired or adored like he is today until the Parkinsons stuff came out, that is honestly what put him over the top and why he was voted athlete of the century, his whole legacy compounded wtih the sickness

I know this is kinda fucked up to say but I am glad he has Parkinsons. He deserves it. I know you guys are about to rip me apart for that but the guy was a draft dodger who also had many affairs and was a flat out racist.

Deserves it? And how was he a flat out racist when him and Cosell were always buddy-buddy?

I got no beef with him dodging the war. Why should he risk his life for a country that treated his people so bad? Like Marble said he took a stand, made his point, and did his time.

One Have you ever heard any of the shit that came out of his mouth. Hell he followed Malcolm X. There is no doubt he was not a fan of white people. Also why was it ok for all these other people of all sorts of walks in life to fight in that war but not him? Why is it because he is a famous boxer. The guy is and was a piece of shit. I am Native American and my family proudly fought in that war. So lets not play the race card. The guy was a draft dodger no matter how people try to sugar coat it. He should have done time in prison. Instead they stopped him from playing a sport. WOW what an injustice to Ali.

No he wasn't a draft dodger. He was a draft CONFRONTER. he didn't dodge anything. THAT's what made him special. Why was his beef legit? Because the idea of being a conscientious objector has a long an honorable history in this country. Do you really think Ali was insincere? Do you find the idea of conscientious objection odious? Just for the record during Vietnam over 150,000 men obtained such status. So it wasn't just Ali.

So you are telling me he was a Muslim Conscientious Objector? What a joke. He was dodging the war. Even if he wasnt he is still a piece of shit person. Its not against the Muslim religion to go to war. So that argument has no validity.

Yeah I am telling you that's EXACTLY what he was. And for Muslims (I can't believe I'm going to defend that festering sore of a mindset), there is, and has been for centuries a strain of pacifist thought , especially in Sufism. The one thing Ali demonstrated in his approach was his sincerity. This wasn't some kind of scam.

Ali you know I am a history teacher right? I might be wrong as I have not studdied every part of the Muslim religion. But I have read the Quran and they do believe in the old testament as well. I have not read were they should not go to war. If you would show me where you got that information Marble I would be very interested in reading that I love history.

This topic has become not sports related and should be disposed of in the proper manner. This has devolved into a racial, political, religious thread not a boxing thread.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

he happened to weigh in on one of the most controversial times in American history

1 side loved him for his stance, 1 side hated him for his stance

add in he was one of the 3 graetest fighters ever

He honestly wasnt publicly admired or adored like he is today until the Parkinsons stuff came out, that is honestly what put him over the top and why he was voted athlete of the century, his whole legacy compounded wtih the sickness

I know this is kinda fucked up to say but I am glad he has Parkinsons. He deserves it. I know you guys are about to rip me apart for that but the guy was a draft dodger who also had many affairs and was a flat out racist.

Deserves it? And how was he a flat out racist when him and Cosell were always buddy-buddy?

I got no beef with him dodging the war. Why should he risk his life for a country that treated his people so bad? Like Marble said he took a stand, made his point, and did his time.

One Have you ever heard any of the shit that came out of his mouth. Hell he followed Malcolm X. There is no doubt he was not a fan of white people. Also why was it ok for all these other people of all sorts of walks in life to fight in that war but not him? Why is it because he is a famous boxer. The guy is and was a piece of shit. I am Native American and my family proudly fought in that war. So lets not play the race card. The guy was a draft dodger no matter how people try to sugar coat it. He should have done time in prison. Instead they stopped him from playing a sport. WOW what an injustice to Ali.

No he wasn't a draft dodger. He was a draft CONFRONTER. he didn't dodge anything. THAT's what made him special. Why was his beef legit? Because the idea of being a conscientious objector has a long an honorable history in this country. Do you really think Ali was insincere? Do you find the idea of conscientious objection odious? Just for the record during Vietnam over 150,000 men obtained such status. So it wasn't just Ali.

So you are telling me he was a Muslim Conscientious Objector? What a joke. He was dodging the war. Even if he wasnt he is still a piece of shit person. Its not against the Muslim religion to go to war. So that argument has no validity.

Yeah I am telling you that's EXACTLY what he was. And for Muslims (I can't believe I'm going to defend that festering sore of a mindset), there is, and has been for centuries a strain of pacifist thought , especially in Sufism. The one thing Ali demonstrated in his approach was his sincerity. This wasn't some kind of scam.

Ali you know I am a history teacher right? I might be wrong as I have not studdied every part of the Muslim religion. But I have read the Quran and they do believe in the old testament as well. I have not read were they should not go to war. If you would show me where you got that information Marble I would be very interested in reading that I love history.

My source is mostly the books of the late, great Bernard Lewis. Again, I am not trying to argue Ali was a Sufi, or that pacifism is a dominant strain in Islam. I'm only saying Ali was sincere and pacifism exists in Islamic thought.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

he happened to weigh in on one of the most controversial times in American history

1 side loved him for his stance, 1 side hated him for his stance

add in he was one of the 3 graetest fighters ever

He honestly wasnt publicly admired or adored like he is today until the Parkinsons stuff came out, that is honestly what put him over the top and why he was voted athlete of the century, his whole legacy compounded wtih the sickness

I know this is kinda fucked up to say but I am glad he has Parkinsons. He deserves it. I know you guys are about to rip me apart for that but the guy was a draft dodger who also had many affairs and was a flat out racist.

Deserves it? And how was he a flat out racist when him and Cosell were always buddy-buddy?

I got no beef with him dodging the war. Why should he risk his life for a country that treated his people so bad? Like Marble said he took a stand, made his point, and did his time.

One Have you ever heard any of the shit that came out of his mouth. Hell he followed Malcolm X. There is no doubt he was not a fan of white people. Also why was it ok for all these other people of all sorts of walks in life to fight in that war but not him? Why is it because he is a famous boxer. The guy is and was a piece of shit. I am Native American and my family proudly fought in that war. So lets not play the race card. The guy was a draft dodger no matter how people try to sugar coat it. He should have done time in prison. Instead they stopped him from playing a sport. WOW what an injustice to Ali.

No he wasn't a draft dodger. He was a draft CONFRONTER. he didn't dodge anything. THAT's what made him special. Why was his beef legit? Because the idea of being a conscientious objector has a long an honorable history in this country. Do you really think Ali was insincere? Do you find the idea of conscientious objection odious? Just for the record during Vietnam over 150,000 men obtained such status. So it wasn't just Ali.

So you are telling me he was a Muslim Conscientious Objector? What a joke. He was dodging the war. Even if he wasnt he is still a piece of shit person. Its not against the Muslim religion to go to war. So that argument has no validity.

Yeah I am telling you that's EXACTLY what he was. And for Muslims (I can't believe I'm going to defend that festering sore of a mindset), there is, and has been for centuries a strain of pacifist thought , especially in Sufism. The one thing Ali demonstrated in his approach was his sincerity. This wasn't some kind of scam.

Ali you know I am a history teacher right? I might be wrong as I have not studdied every part of the Muslim religion. But I have read the Quran and they do believe in the old testament as well. I have not read were they should not go to war. If you would show me where you got that information Marble I would be very interested in reading that I love history.

My source is mostly the books of the late, great Bernard Lewis. Again, I am not trying to argue Ali was a Sufi, or that pacifism is a dominant strain in Islam. I'm only saying Ali was sincere and pacifism exists in Islamic thought.

OK I wil try to find it.

hardcore is right as usual

Lewis wrote a dozen books, maybe more. I recommend three, "What went Wrong," Islam and the West" and "The Crisis of Islam."

Birdofthad wrote:

hardcore is right as usual

grumble, grumble

hahaha its ok any Ali thread normally turns into a draft dodging thing, just like any thread mentioning Pac or Mayweather turns into you know what

Birdofthad wrote:

hahaha its ok any Ali thread normally turns into a draft dodging thing, just like any thread mentioning Pac or Mayweather turns into you know what

Who???????

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

This topic has become not sports related and should be disposed of in the proper manner. This has devolved into a racial, political, religious thread not a boxing thread.

David Haye is just another hype job from the UK.

There. Now it will be disposed of.

Birdofthad wrote:

hardcore is right as usual

OOOOOOOHHH!!!!!! Can I show this post to my wife????????

Nevermind she still won't believe it LOL.

Birdofthad wrote:

hahaha its ok any Ali thread normally turns into a draft dodging thing, just like any thread mentioning Pac or Mayweather turns into you know what

You mean how Floyd is a pussy who wont fight Pac and how Pac has a better resume?

Im sorry Bird I had to it was just too easy.

sooners do you watch Clint Eastwood movies?

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

This topic has become not sports related and should be disposed of in the proper manner. This has devolved into a racial, political, religious thread not a boxing thread.

Yea, but it's definitely answered the question as to why Ali is controversial. And understanding one of the most important figures in the sport and his place in history is relevant to boxing.

soonermark890 wrote:

So you are telling me he was a Muslim Conscientious Objector? What a joke. He was dodging the war. Even if he wasnt he is still a piece of shit person. Its not against the Muslim religion to go to war. So that argument has no validity.

I believe his religion had some part of it, but I think his main issue was he did not understand the war. He wasn't on board with going to another country where no one had done him any harm to fight for a bunch of people who had violently oppressed his people and would continue to do so upon his return. You don't have to agree with it, but he had his logic.

Ali accomplished a lot of great things and empowered a lot of people. He continues to do so now. He was not perfect and I have no problem with people disliking him and disagreeing with what he did, but wishing him Parkinsons is wrong.

Gumby wrote:

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

This topic has become not sports related and should be disposed of in the proper manner. This has devolved into a racial, political, religious thread not a boxing thread.

Yea, but it's definitely answered the question as to why Ali is controversial. And understanding one of the most important figures in the sport and his place in history is relevant to boxing.

soonermark890 wrote:

So you are telling me he was a Muslim Conscientious Objector? What a joke. He was dodging the war. Even if he wasnt he is still a piece of shit person. Its not against the Muslim religion to go to war. So that argument has no validity.

I believe his religion had some part of it, but I think his main issue was he did not understand the war. He wasn't on board with going to another country where no one had done him any harm to fight for a bunch of people who had violently oppressed his people and would continue to do so upon his return. You don't have to agree with it, but he had his logic.

Ali accomplished a lot of great things and empowered a lot of people. He continues to do so now. He was not perfect and I have no problem with people disliking him and disagreeing with what he did, but wishing him Parkinsons is wrong.

I didnt wish it on him I just said he kinda deserved it. I also said that its kinda fucked up also. So yes I do agree with you.

Because he was one seriously unlikeable motherfucker.