Brutal, honest opinion. Who beats a pre - Ali, Foreman

The late, great comic Richard Pryor once said, "George Foreman has a unique style. None. George just goes in the ring and says, "Which one's the referee?" Because I'm gonna kill that other motherfucker." Funny stuff from the master hiimself. However, I would've asked Rich, why type of a style does a hurricane, tornado or a volcano have? " I personally don't know of many other fighters who could take Joe Frazier and Ken Norton on in one night. "Who beats a young Foreman?" is a tougher question than you might imagine. It calls for some (myself included) to sacrafice the reputations of their most beloved fighters. Nobody likes doing that, nevertheless, we must be honest here. Did Dempsey, Marciano or Liston have what it took for a toe toe exchange against Foreman? How would Max Baer do? Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcottt? Sure, they're better boxers than the former, but how would they avoid George's windmill attack. Jersey Joe was able to use the whole ring first time around against Joe Louis so he has an outside chance. Joe Louis? One off the few fighters that I'm confident of against Foreman. Probably the best toe to toe figther and finisher in HW history. Jack Johnson? I'll let someone else take that question. So, what do ya think. I've said too much already.

not michael moorer
no one cause george is the fucking man and my all time favorite.

ive always thought that a prime foreman beats just about anybody. ali fought the perfect fight and ruined foreman. IMO, if foreman would have beaten ali, he would have wrecked the division after that.

i could see louis winning because of his sharp, accurate punching. would i be surprised to see foreman win though? no. but i would put my money on louis. the only other fighter that i think would make foreman work is holmes because of his great jab and ability to recover after he is hurt.

im offering no comment outside that several could have beaton him..this post makes it seem that george was the greatest ever perhaps excluding ali whos given credit for winning ONLY because folks claim he fought a smart fight..frazier was soo one dimentional and fought a cocky dumb fight and was far easier to hit with his head moving only up and down in one position making it a semi stationary target..the second fight joe made george miss several times and foreman was in such a vulnerable position but joe didnt make any effort to make him pay for it....liston was a far more complete fighter and so was lennox lewis..so was harry wills...look at the first greg peralta fight who was a very good LH weight and was about 38 when he fought the sooo called indestructable george foreman and also even gregs second fight with him and you will see several keys telling you why not only ali beat him but how many a complete fighter could of also accomplished that..besides i feel there was no change in abilty or lessining of georges power etc etc when he fought jimmy young and ron lyle who were in abilty not in lets say walcotts league nor listons nor lewis nor harry wills..

Ignorant casual fan at best here. How do you guys think a peak Tyson fairs against a peak Foreman?

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

Ignorant casual fan at best here. How do you guys think a peak Tyson fairs against a peak Foreman?

foreman would get the best of tyson and IMO drop him like a bad habit, but i may also come down to who landed the first (and last) big blow of the fight

Toughie.

The guys I think have little chance-Sullivan, Corbett, Jeffries, Willard, Tunney, Schmeling, Baer, Braddock, Marciano, Patterson, Frazier, Norton, Tyson, Bowe, Lennox, Wlad, Vitaly

Guys who I think have at least some chance-Langford, Johnson, Dempsey, Walcott, Charles, Evander. Each of these guys either moves exceptionally well and/or is an exceptional ring thinker.

Guys who I'd favor over Young George-Ali (of course), Sonny Liston, Joe Louis. Liston might be the one guy who could just outphysical Foreman and Louis was tough enough to survive the early onslaught and take over late.

Nice topic.

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

Ignorant casual fan at best here. How do you guys think a peak Tyson fairs against a peak Foreman?

I think Tyson has a chance against anyone who ever laced'em up...for three rounds. I just don't think he gets George out of there and then when Mike goes into his "oh, you're still here? What do I do now?" Mode, George chops him up.

But Tyson always has that three round chance.

marble several that you listed as having no chance or little chance truly had a excellent chance..first in franks post it says the windmill style of foreman..he was not a windmill.3 or 4 wide extra wide looping punches when someone was hurt.not a manny pac windmill.1.foreman could easily be beaton to the punch by a straight punch getting there first over his long extra wide shots..2.when for example frazier in the second fight slipped many of georges punches he did nothing to make him pay..a marciano and dempsey indeed would make him pay and when the few times young george got hit he went down..ron lyle ali and jimmy young are examples..the peralta fight showed that great use of and intelligent use of distance is a key one of them in beating george..greg got inside george and by that i dont mean on top of him but used distance to negate george who did not throw a shorter straight punch..greg could hit george before georges looping punches arived as well as thoses punches missed there mark cause of the shorten distance..had greg posessed walcotts power he would of taken george out of there.
dempsey by no means was smarter than marciano in the ring..tunney was smarter than peralta and by studing george would of fought him the same way..this is taking nothing away from george but it sure is taking a lot away from other great fighters and good ones like bowe saying theres noo chance or little chance to beat him when theres plenty of reasons to rightly think otherwise...theres too much thinking that george just hits so and so and destroys all..and noo reasoning of what if george gets wacked.or what if a fighter did things smart used distance to there advantage or could beat george to the punch ..theres little though beyound george would crush so and so without getting hit himself and often..sorry ill debate untill dooms day on this one..it sums up as far to much credit given to george far less credit given to others..

Evander struggled with old fat George. Lean, mean George I think walks right thru Evander.

dmar5143 wrote:

marble several that you listed as having no chance or little chance truly had a excellent chance..first in franks post it says the windmill style of foreman..he was not a windmill.3 or 4 wide extra wide looping punches when someone was hurt.not a manny pac windmill.1.foreman could easily be beaton to the punch by a straight punch getting there first over his long extra wide shots..2.when for example frazier in the second fight slipped many of georges punches he did nothing to make him pay..a marciano and dempsey indeed would make him pay and when the few times young george got hit he went down..ron lyle ali and jimmy young are examples..the peralta fight showed that great use of and intelligent use of distance is a key one of them in beating george..greg got inside george and by that i dont mean on top of him but used distance to negate george who did not throw a shorter straight punch..greg could hit george before georges looping punches arived as well as thoses punches missed there mark cause of the shorten distance..had greg posessed walcotts power he would of taken george out of there.
dempsey by no means was smarter than marciano in the ring..tunney was smarter than peralta and by studing george would of fought him the same way..this is taking nothing away from george but it sure is taking a lot away from other great fighters and good ones like bowe saying theres noo chance or little chance to beat him when theres plenty of reasons to rightly think otherwise...theres too much thinking that george just hits so and so and destroys all..and noo reasoning of what if george gets wacked.or what if a fighter did things smart used distance to there advantage or could beat george to the punch ..theres little though beyound george would crush so and so without getting hit himself and often..sorry ill debate untill dooms day on this one..it sums up as far to much credit given to george far less credit given to others..

I think Dempsey has a shot, I just can't see the Rock making George miss enough not to get all cut up and stopped. Demsey moved in ways Marciano just didn't. Gene Tunney was as smart and tough as they come. But he was also really a light heavy who barely scraped up to heavy. He never faced anyone over 200 pounds I don't think. I think George just pushes him, literally, around the ring the way George did and I don't see Tunney having an answer for that.

Riddick Bowe would have matched up physically very well with Young George. But he was never the smartest guy in the ring and except on rare occasions, he fought the other guys fight when he fought top guys. I think he lacks the discipline to fight his fight all the way through. At some point, like Moorere did, Bowe stands in front of George and gets nailed.

One clarification. My middle category is NOT has "little" chance. It is has a legitimate chance.

Canvas wrote:

Evander struggled with old fat George. Lean, mean George I think walks right thru Evander.

Old George was magnificent that night wasn't he? That was the best Old George we ever saw I thought.

marble what happens after several fighters go to five round or 6 against george..stanima indeed is a issue with young george..if tunney who weighed 190-195 in lots of fights then marciano surely is a LH.0.yes today under todays weigh in rules he is a LH.. can you show me examples on the way dempsey moved in the ring more intelligent or better than rocky..what films or clips can prove that point..i think its the other way around....question.why does foreman push tunney all over but didnt do that to peralta..or jimmy young.

dmar5143 wrote:

marble what happens after several fighters go to five round or 6 against george..stanima indeed is a issue with young george..if tunney who weighed 190-195 in lots of fights then marciano surely is a LH.0.yes today under todays weigh in rules he is a LH.. can you show me examples on the way dempsey moved in the ring more intelligent or better than rocky..what films or clips can prove that point..i think its the other way around....question.why does foreman push tunney all over but didnt do that to peralta..or jimmy young.

The Dempsey movement is clear in the Willard fight, his sparring with Big Bill Tate (here is some footage of that) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmaPxa-eZss

The Rock's movement tended to be up and down as opposed to showing the agility Dempsey did. Don't get me wrong, Marciano's worked, I just don't think it'd be as effective against Foreman as Dempsey's more agile weaving.

Tunney never weighed 195 in his life and weighed oner 190 only once. He never faced a guy anywhere near Foreman's dimensions that I can think of.

Jimmy Young weighed 215 pounds, that's 30+ over Tunney's best weight. Plus that was AFTER the Ali fight. You keep talking about the peralta fights. In the first one George was in his what? 15th pro fight? The second time they fought George got him out of there and that was still 6-8 fights before he got to Frazier. George was still learning the push off

marble sorry again in the willard fight and the firpo fight dempsey did no weaving.he fought out of a croched in brennan fight gibbons and second tunney fight but there was no sliping or weaving under punches like rocky did against louis or charles at all.nor any effective counter punching..i did see that tape clip and im not impressed to the point that you are especialy since its a sparing workout..its my thoughts only perhaps rocky gets little or no credit on many things that he did well.slipping a jab and countering.many other things..dempsey showed litterly slopy punching no skill in willard and firpo fights.he developed a more skillfull aproach after thoses fights...you and i lol can go round and round over this and in all honesty neither one of us is going to change our mind but i do respect greatly your thoughts...

dmar5143 wrote:

marble sorry again in the willard fight and the firpo fight dempsey did no weaving.he fought out of a croched in brennan fight gibbons and second tunney fight but there was no sliping or weaving under punches like rocky did against louis or charles at all.nor any effective counter punching..i did see that tape clip and im not impressed to the point that you are especialy since its a sparing workout..its my thoughts only perhaps rocky gets little or no credit on many things that he did well.slipping a jab and countering.many other things..dempsey showed litterly slopy punching no skill in willard and firpo fights.he developed a more skillfull aproach after thoses fights...you and i lol can go round and round over this and in all honesty neither one of us is going to change our mind but i do respect greatly your thoughts...

Dempsey moves laterally on Willard early in the fight and lands that first crushing left after he ducks a Willard right hand. Classic stuff! Of course once he hurt Willard he didn't need to move so much. Even in the long count fight an old Dempsey weaves under a Tunney right to land that leaping left hook.

Here's some slow mo in the Willard fight. LOOK at those moves! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA-1XKYg7AU&feature=related



Again, I do NOT mean to denigrate the Rock. But in this particular area the Rock's awkwardness is not the equivalent of Dempsey's athleticism. In addition Demspey is doing this against a big, big man. Marciano never faced a big competent guy that I can think of. Could be wrong though.

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

Ignorant casual fan at best here. How do you guys think a peak Tyson fairs against a peak Foreman?

: I'd say we're all casual fans unless we're getting paid for our opinions. lol: Though, Marble has taught me a great deal. Foreman vs. Tyson? I'd pick a 45 year old Foreman over a 20 year old Tyson. I think Foreman crushes him in 2 rounds. If that fight ever took place, I'm confident some of my financial woes would end as a result of that fight. In other words, I'd would've gone to Vegas for that one, Baby.

lol lol lol ...clean out the mgm grand huh

dmar5143 wrote:

lol lol lol ...clean out the mgm grand huh

You better believe it Dmar. lol 3 things you can be sure about. Death, taxes and George Foreman whipping Mike Tyson's ass.

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

Ignorant casual fan at best here. How do you guys think a peak Tyson fairs against a peak Foreman?

George wins by murder in the 3rd.