If Edgar beats Bendo, would that make him the greatest ever MMA Lightweight?

While i agree Edgar is above them or will go down as the better fighter..Pulver, Gomi, and even Uno were not scrubs. Pulver and Gomi are awful now, Uno is actually still pretty solid for an older guy.

oggy420 wrote:

Ludo wrote:

He'd still be behind Penn, Pulver, Uno, and Gomi in overall accomplishments. What is it with you and being so quick to crown people "greatest ____ ever" or "#1 P4P after a year in the spotlight"?

hold your horses there. His legacy isn't quite bj's yet, but it's way better than those other scrubs you listed.

STFU, Tuf n00b.

freakzilla wrote:

jewzilla wrote:

freakzilla wrote:

jewzilla wrote:

That someone is BJ Penn. Cant believe you are even making this a poll. How long has Frankie been fighting in the UFC? Give it some time, then talk again.

How did Penn clean it out? He lost twice to Edgar, he never fought Maynard who I think beats Penn and he never fought all the guys Edgar is now going to fight. Penn far from cleaned out the division.

Didnt say he cleaned out the division, I am saying if we have to pick a GOAT by your standards, I am going with BJ. You do realize this sport has grown, and fighters have changed dramatically since BJ was doing work right? The big names during BJs title reign were completely different than the big names now.

A better way to ask this question would be, who wins, BJ in his prime, or Frankie now. Whoever you pick from that is who I would say is the best lightweight up to this point... The answer is BJ, btw.

Ill change my POV if Frankie beats Bendo, then Gil, then drops down to 145 and beats Aldo, and holds titles in 2 divisions.

Frankie beat a prime Penn twice already and that wasn't even a prime Frankie. Anyways how would beating Aldo at 145 have anything to do with his standing as a lightweight?

This makes no sense...how do you come to the conclusion that it was "not even prime Frankie"?

I won't argue that Penn was in his prime, because he was champ..though his overall performance, approach, and conditioning had regressed from his several LW fights before those, but even with his uninspired performance in Abu Dhabi he still should have got the decision..but Frankie was not in his prime? based on what?

If we are solely comparing their work at LW then I think Frankie is on par with BJ with this win. That would be 4 title defenses (I think a draw is technically a title defense) and an overall record of 10-1-1 with wins over Griffin, Sherk, Maynard, Penn (2x), Miller and Bendo. That is pretty damn impressive no matter how you slice it.

People need to rewatch the Penn vs. Edgar I fight. Edgar won that fight and was even more convincing in the second fight. Lets not pretend that their first fight was a robbery simply because most didn't expect it. It was a clear decision for Edgar imo.

I like Edgar a lot and have never ben a Penn guy, but even I say Frankie has to do a little more before we start putting him in that category.

jimbojones1950 wrote:

People need to rewatch the Penn vs. Edgar I fight. Edgar won that fight and was even more convincing in the second fight. Lets not pretend that their first fight was a robbery simply because most didn't expect it. It was a clear decision for Edgar imo.

I agree. I thought Edgar won it fair and square.

KingsOwn19 wrote:

freakzilla wrote:

jewzilla wrote:

freakzilla wrote:

jewzilla wrote:

That someone is BJ Penn. Cant believe you are even making this a poll. How long has Frankie been fighting in the UFC? Give it some time, then talk again.

How did Penn clean it out? He lost twice to Edgar, he never fought Maynard who I think beats Penn and he never fought all the guys Edgar is now going to fight. Penn far from cleaned out the division.

Didnt say he cleaned out the division, I am saying if we have to pick a GOAT by your standards, I am going with BJ. You do realize this sport has grown, and fighters have changed dramatically since BJ was doing work right? The big names during BJs title reign were completely different than the big names now.

A better way to ask this question would be, who wins, BJ in his prime, or Frankie now. Whoever you pick from that is who I would say is the best lightweight up to this point... The answer is BJ, btw.

Ill change my POV if Frankie beats Bendo, then Gil, then drops down to 145 and beats Aldo, and holds titles in 2 divisions.

Frankie beat a prime Penn twice already and that wasn't even a prime Frankie. Anyways how would beating Aldo at 145 have anything to do with his standing as a lightweight?

This makes no sense...how do you come to the conclusion that it was "not even prime Frankie"?

I won't argue that Penn was in his prime, because he was champ..though his overall performance, approach, and conditioning had regressed from his several LW fights before those, but even with his uninspired performance in Abu Dhabi he still should have got the decision..but Frankie was not in his prime? based on what?

Edgar keeps improving every fight and I think he is still a year or 2 away from reaching his peak as a fighter. Look what he did in the 2nd fight compared to the first against both Penn and Maynard.

Does the style of win mean anything? Even though Frankie got a KO win his last fight it was far from domination. Has Frankie ever looked as dominate as Penn did in his fights?

Look Frankies a beast. Could he turn out to be the greatest lightweight ever? Yeah it's poss but not yet, he's 1-1 against the greatest ever I don't care what anyone says.

Some people feel he also should have lost that draw dec to Maynard. But as it stands he is 1-1-1 vs Maynard. Frankie won a dec vs Sherk, BJ dominated and finished a better version of Sherk. BJ Penn was crushing his opponents. Frankie has been on the right side of some tough fights. Give Frankie some time to really come into his own, then come back to this issue.

OU wrote:

Does the style of win mean anything? Even though Frankie got a KO win his last fight it was far from domination. Has Frankie ever looked as dominate as Penn did in his fights?

You have a point but a wins a win. If Penn had or does fight Maynard and dominates him then I would probably have Penn as the GOAT. It's that close.

freakzilla wrote:

OU wrote:

Does the style of win mean anything? Even though Frankie got a KO win his last fight it was far from domination. Has Frankie ever looked as dominate as Penn did in his fights?

You have a point but a wins a win. If Penn had or does fight Maynard and dominates him then I would probably have Penn as the GOAT. It's that close.

That's just simply not true. But it's right up your alley to look at results and not the fights. We have been down that road. What actually takes place in the cage is relevant. Silly to think otherwise.

OU wrote:

freakzilla wrote:

OU wrote:

Does the style of win mean anything? Even though Frankie got a KO win his last fight it was far from domination. Has Frankie ever looked as dominate as Penn did in his fights?

You have a point but a wins a win. If Penn had or does fight Maynard and dominates him then I would probably have Penn as the GOAT. It's that close.

That's just simply not true. But it's right up your alley to look at results and not the fights. We have been down that road. What actually takes place in the cage is relevant. Silly to think otherwise.

How did I say it's irrelevant? Edgar has 1 loss in his whole career. Penn has 3 at LW at 2 of them were against Edgar. Those losses count more against Penn than Edgar just winning. Especially since Edgar should be fighting at Featherweight.

freakzilla wrote:

OU wrote:

freakzilla wrote:

OU wrote:

Does the style of win mean anything? Even though Frankie got a KO win his last fight it was far from domination. Has Frankie ever looked as dominate as Penn did in his fights?

You have a point but a wins a win. If Penn had or does fight Maynard and dominates him then I would probably have Penn as the GOAT. It's that close.

That's just simply not true. But it's right up your alley to look at results and not the fights. We have been down that road. What actually takes place in the cage is relevant. Silly to think otherwise.

How did I say it's irrelevant? Edgar has 1 loss in his whole career. Penn has 3 at LW at 2 of them were against Edgar. Those losses count more against Penn than Edgar just winning. Especially since Edgar should be fighting at Featherweight.

Again you are focusing too much on looking at results only. You are not factoring in what happens in the cage. All you are doing it looking at stat sheet. But the fights themselves are a better indicator, it's OK to use what you SEE in fights. "A win is a win" implies that Frankie's close dec wins is equally as impressive as BJ dominating and finishing. You are allowed to use what you see and factor that in, this isn't the BCS crunching numbers.

I say no.

There was a time not that long ago where Penn had the LW division pretty much cleaned out. And as noted, doing it in DOMINANT fashion. So much so that we saw Penn looking for the GSP super fight. And then after losing he came back and thrashed a couple more guys(and Sanchez was given a streamlined shot because of the lack of interesting fights left for Penn).

And Penn did have to deal with the UFC getting rid of the division for a bit, and as I said he has always looked for challenges at higher weight classes, so who knows how long and dominant a run it could have been.

Edgar has not been on the big stage long enough, nor has he dominated in Penn like fashion. But he does have the W's over Penn(whether u agree or not) and with a win over Bendo it would be getting close. Def worth the discussion.

Quote :

Is it? Let's break it down:

Edgars best wins:
Matt Veach (Not ranked in the top ten at the time)
Jim Miller (Not ranked in the top ten at the time)
Gray Maynard (Not ranked in the top ten at the time)
Sean Sherk (Not ranked in the top ten at the time)
Hermes Franca(Not ranked in the top ten at the time)

Penn's best wins at 155:
Kenny Florian(ranked #2 in the world at the time)
Sean Sherk(Ranked 8th in the world at the time)
Caol Uno(Ranked top 2 in the world at the time)
Din Thomas(Ranked 3rd in the world at the time)
Takanori Gomi(ranked #1 in the world at the time)

Are you still sure his resume is a candidate for best ever?

I see the rankings point, but the real world strength of schedule is about the same, and the win over Penn is compelling. Edgar is a new face but MMA is so young, I can at least see the argument. I knew freak would be butchered over this. It is a little unfair to him, it is a legit question at least. Just like if I should start postin pics of Mohommad up in this bitch is another legit question.

freakzilla wrote:

jewzilla wrote:

freakzilla wrote:

jewzilla wrote:

That someone is BJ Penn. Cant believe you are even making this a poll. How long has Frankie been fighting in the UFC? Give it some time, then talk again.

How did Penn clean it out? He lost twice to Edgar, he never fought Maynard who I think beats Penn and he never fought all the guys Edgar is now going to fight. Penn far from cleaned out the division.

Didnt say he cleaned out the division, I am saying if we have to pick a GOAT by your standards, I am going with BJ. You do realize this sport has grown, and fighters have changed dramatically since BJ was doing work right? The big names during BJs title reign were completely different than the big names now.

A better way to ask this question would be, who wins, BJ in his prime, or Frankie now. Whoever you pick from that is who I would say is the best lightweight up to this point... The answer is BJ, btw.

Ill change my POV if Frankie beats Bendo, then Gil, then drops down to 145 and beats Aldo, and holds titles in 2 divisions.

Frankie beat a prime Penn twice already and that wasn't even a prime Frankie. Anyways how would beating Aldo at 145 have anything to do with his standing as a lightweight?

To compare Frankie to BJ, I want to see him accomplish the same things as BJ. Just wait til this weekend. If Bendo wins, I want you to shut the fuck up about this and feel very stupid.

There are other factors to consider...


BJ's opponents, a lot of them, were actually not that good looking back with the same comb we insist on going over Fedor with. Florian always loses his big fights and physically was never imposing enough to win at the highest levels, and is awful short on top ten wins himself, Diego was kind of fools gold at LW, Joe Daddy fell apart quickly, Sherk was done kind of already, and hasn't been a force since either, Pulver it turns out, may have been certified trash etc. We could if we wanted to take a lot of water out of the Penn bucket, but at the same time, Penn's dominance was over a longer period of time, by faaaar. But then we could also factor in Penn is a huge LW, who won the WW title and in my mind is a current top ten WW(he was clobering Diaz in round 1, and held his own vs Fitch for most of the fight, murdered Hughes, still a top fighter to me) while Edgar is a muuuuch smaller man. But Penn at least finished everyone, but he was always a front runner, and never fought his way out of fights he was losing, while Edgar only has a few finishes, but powered back to win two classic fights in the face of adversity. Penn would smash dudes to death, Edgar often needed multiple fights. Lots of angles to the comparisons.

A lot of dynamics to this. I'll go with Penn, but Edgar has already staked his legend, and is already closing the gap. IMO. I don't think the LW Pride lineage is as glorious as others, and while Gomi is also in the discussion, for me, Edgar's work in the modern UFC already surpasses it. Pride at LW wasn't Pride at HW or MW(204)

Ludo doesn't know shit abot mma. Just because they fought back in the day doesn't mean what Edgar has done isn't worth shit. Edgar has a fa better legacy with the names he has beaten. And stop bitching cause edgar beat Penn twice whether you agree with it or not.

No, saying Penn lost that first fight to Edgar is lunacy. Penn won probably all five rounds in Edgar Penn 1.

I'm not bitching. But you act like the Uno, Pulver, and Gomi of today are the same as what they were five, six, and eight years ago. The fact is those guys were the cream of the crop and helped make the lightweight division what it currently is. They created a standard in the lighter weight fighters being ultra talented and skilled fighters who still got shit done. Don't get angry at Me because you don't know shit about MMA prior to Forrest Griffin and Diego Sanchez winning TUF1.

I never said Edgar's accomplishments aren't great, especially for a fighter who doesn't cut any weight in a division full of fighters who do now. I'm saying his legacy isn't the stuff of legend just yet. Most of the guys he beat weren't the great fighters they are now with the exception of Maynard. Jim Miller wasn't even on the map yet, Sean Sherk was a year removed from getting his shit pushed in by Penn.

Beating Maynard the way he did was one of the most spectacular comebacks of all time, there's no denying that. That right there is comeback of the year and maybe the best of all time given everything that went on in the second fight before it. But the fact is it was a comeback. He didn't dominate for three and a half rounds before stopping Maynard.

Edgar to me is already a solid number 2, 3 at the most.

i've seen them fight in their prime. They would all lose to edgar, and many other top lightweights right now. The talent in the sport, especially in this division which everyone agrees is one of if not the most stacked divisions, is far superior right now. Has nothing to do with when i discovered mma or became a fan. Yes Gomi and Uno were great fighters, but their records show that when they truly fought top guys they lost. Can't say the same about Edgar.