The truth about certain religious people

I have no knowledge of what lies beyond, yet I have faith in the infinite universe to create and re create life. I don't believe this life is the end, however I have faith in a spiritual realm. Do I know it exists? No. I don't want to come down on heavily religous people and their so called beliefs, however I'll just point out one example which I think points out that the faith they profess may not be authentic. Does anyone here recall the "Pope" dying? Now, the Pope is guranteed instant "Sainthood" once he makes it to heaven. That's a helluva good deal. So why was the "Pope" hanging on to life with his very last breath, year after year after year. After a while, it looked like the Catholic version of "Weekend At Bernie's." Was this a guy who believed he was going to heaven with a great job watiing for him? I seriously doubt it.

Simple answer : he would say heaven will always be there waiting for him and a handful of extra earth years is supremely inconsequential in the scheme of God's universe. He has a job given to him by the lord and it is the lord who keeps him alive and ripe into his old age. Um duh!


However the real interesting thing in what you said is -

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I have no knowledge of what lies beyond, yet I have faith in the infinite universe to create and re create life. I don't believe this life is the end, however I have faith in a spiritual realm. Do I know it exists? No.

This blind faith in "something" which admittedly you don't even know what that "something" is is instinctual. Like loving your child or becoming hungry.

Come on Wolf just like Frank can't speak on fact neither can you. You are also giving your personal opinion. I'm not saying you don't have reasons for thinking that way, but you aren't stating any more "fact" then Frank is.

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

Come on Wolf just like Frank can't speak on fact neither can you. You are also giving your personal opinion. I'm not saying you don't have reasons for thinking that way, but you aren't stating any more "fact" then Frank is.

This is correct. 100 percent.

By the way, I don't buy that shit about the "Pope." He was in a lot of pain and probably didn't have much thought process going on. To trade that in for everlasting life, floating around in heaven as a VIP is a no brainer. My true opinion about those who say they know all about "life after death" is that they're terrified of dying.

I will say this. I have friends who have beaten drug addiction with religion. So, if there's anyone here that fits that description, please disregard everything I've said and keep believing what you're believing. Better to give money to a preacher than be a meth addict.

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Come on Wolf just like Frank can't speak on fact neither can you. You are also giving your personal opinion. I'm not saying you don't have reasons for thinking that way, but you aren't stating any more "fact" then Frank is.

Sure I am. Facts to me. When it comes to religion/science on creation all "facts" are theories and all theories are "facts" to those who believe them.

Like the "theory" of evolution. Evolution has been absolutely proven(proven to me, and most of science) in numerous ways, yet still a "theory". Why? Because of believers.

100% of all races, societies and civilizations believed in "something" and nearly every person you'll ever meet believes in some "higher power" or "something", even if it's not Christianity.

Indeed, you'd meet more people with belief in super natural somethings than you will people who feel the urge to mate with the opposite sex. Obviously sex and sexual behavior is instinctual, passing on our DNA is one of the most basal urges all animals have, yet many and probably most(never seen any numbers) homosexuals believe in something.

4445Frank wrote:

I will say this. I have friends who have beaten drug addiction with religion. So, if there's anyone here that fits that description, please disregard everything I've said and keep believing what you're believing. Better to give money to a preacher than be a meth addict.

Meth addict who dies from meth = no DNA transference.

Meth addict who survives with "God" = DNA transference.


Just a modern example of the selective advantage belief/faith provides for the complex primate.

4445Frank wrote:

I will say this. I have friends who have beaten drug addiction with religion. So, if there's anyone here that fits that description, please disregard everything I've said and keep believing what you're believing. Better to give money to a preacher than be a meth addict.

See whatever gives you faith and peace of mind is a good thing to believe in. Often just the hope that religion gives you gives you the confidence to make the choices you need to make. That is why I think the idea of religion is a good thing, it encourages people to be good and do the right thing.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

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Come on Wolf just like Frank can't speak on fact neither can you. You are also giving your personal opinion. I'm not saying you don't have reasons for thinking that way, but you aren't stating any more "fact" then Frank is.

Sure I am. Facts to me. When it comes to religion/science on creation all "facts" are theories and all theories are "facts" to those who believe them.

Like the "theory" of evolution. Evolution has been absolutely proven(proven to me, and most of science) in numerous ways, yet still a "theory". Why? Because of believers.

100% of all races, societies and civilizations believed in "something" and nearly every person you'll ever meet believes in some "higher power" or "something", even if it's not Christianity.

Indeed, you'd meet more people with belief in super natural somethings than you will people who feel the urge to mate with the opposite sex. Obviously sex and sexual behavior is instinctual, passing on our DNA is one of the most basal urges all animals have, yet many and probably most(never seen any numbers) homosexuals believe in something.

The "Theory of Evolution" has solid facts to back it up. Anthropologists have discovered the fossils and remains of man in every stage of his growth. It's not like Christians stating that dinasours appeared in biblical times.

The counter arguments to evolution are sad and pathetic misrepresentations of the theory too. Almost flat out lies.


"No transitional fossils"

Ya ok dude.

Come on Wolf you are just set in your ways. Your line of thinking isn't supported by any more facts then Franks or anyone elses . You have the things you choose to believe in and read into and other have whatever they choose to believe. Free choice, free will allow us to draw our own conclusions. Your reality is no more real then anyone elses. You feel that it is instinctual to have some kind of faith. I think it is more cultural, not something we are born with but something that is taught from a young age.

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Come on Wolf you are just set in your ways. Your line of thinking isn't supported by any more facts then Franks or anyone elses . You have the things you choose to believe in and read into and other have whatever they choose to believe. Free choice, free will allow us to draw our own conclusions. Your reality is no more real then anyone elses. You feel that it is instinctual to have some kind of faith. I think it is more cultural, not something we are born with but something that is taught from a young age.

SOONERS, open your mind.

Why have all societies and almost every person to have ever lived had faith in something?

So, the fact that we've been fighting a 2,000 year war over religion in the Middle-East is all based on learned behavior everyone was taught when they were three years old? There are no biological components to it eh? That is a tough, tough sell bro.

I'm sure you're Christian on some level right? Or you believe in something? You ever just "know" "something" exists?

Ask most people who believe why they believe SOONERS. They will say they do because they "just do" or because they "just know" and can simply "feel" it. It's a non-rational belief(not irrational) shared by billions of living humans, a species that has through rationality tamed fire, rivers, stone, water, air and even space to various degrees or another.

Almost every person on the planet believes in something. It's the absolute most common feature all humans, regardless of race or culture. There have been societies that were remarkably not warlike. Barely any defensive walls, weapons or war implements have been found at Minoan sites, but they've found religious artifacts and temples alright.

We're not even the only human species to have been religious. Neanderthal was a different species and we've found solid evidence of rituals performed at the graves of their dead, indicating they too believed in an afterlife.

I could get very deep into the selective advantage belief in super natural stuff had for "cavemen" or humans during the hunter gatherer stage all the way through now. Do I need to?

Ehh, I can't really say I'm a Christian. Like Frank I choose to hold out some hope that there is something more beyond this. I just don't think it works the way the majority of the people think so or should I say are how most people are taught.
I do have an open mind and I am open to your line of thinking and I admit I have similar thoughts at time. I don't like organized religion and I don't like the interpretation and translation of the bible. But as I said before I support anyone that has beliefs that encourage them to be good people. When it is all said in done I really just believe in doing what is right and being a good person.

Bingo. What makes you believe? You just do right?

The belief is "just there". You don't even know why it is.


What I really want to know is, why hasn't it ever been there for me. It's always been "missing", even since I was a wee child.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Bingo. What makes you believe? You just do right?

The belief is "just there". You don't even know why it is.


What I really want to know is, why hasn't it ever been there for me. It's always been "missing", even since I was a wee child.

I didn't say I believe, I said I hold out hope. Slight difference there, I know I'm splitting hairs though.
But for me it is how I was raised, going to church when I was younger that puts some kind belief in my head I suppose. I think that is how it is for everyone. I disagree that we are born with any kind of faith burned into our brains but rather our culture and society puts those thoughts there.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

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Come on Wolf you are just set in your ways. Your line of thinking isn't supported by any more facts then Franks or anyone elses . You have the things you choose to believe in and read into and other have whatever they choose to believe. Free choice, free will allow us to draw our own conclusions. Your reality is no more real then anyone elses. You feel that it is instinctual to have some kind of faith. I think it is more cultural, not something we are born with but something that is taught from a young age.

SOONERS, open your mind.

Why have all societies and almost every person to have ever lived had faith in something?

So, the fact that we've been fighting a 2,000 year war over religion in the Middle-East is all based on learned behavior everyone was taught when they were three years old? There are no biological components to it eh? That is a tough, tough sell bro.

I'm sure you're Christian on some level right? Or you believe in something? You ever just "know" "something" exists?

Ask most people who believe why they believe SOONERS. They will say they do because they "just do" or because they "just know" and can simply "feel" it. It's a non-rational belief(not irrational) shared by billions of living humans, a species that has through rationality tamed fire, rivers, stone, water, air and even space to various degrees or another.

Almost every person on the planet believes in something. It's the absolute most common feature all humans, regardless of race or culture. There have been societies that were remarkably not warlike. Barely any defensive walls, weapons or war implements have been found at Minoan sites, but they've found religious artifacts and temples alright.

We're not even the only human species to have been religious. Neanderthal was a different species and we've found solid evidence of rituals performed at the graves of their dead, indicating they too believed in an afterlife.

I could get very deep into the selective advantage belief in super natural stuff had for "cavemen" or humans during the hunter gatherer stage all the way through now. Do I need to?

Wolf, I appreciate the passion of your argument and it's very interesting. The concept of man having DNA that somehow gives him knowledge of some type of "living God." However, and I speak for myself here, I haven't seen anything approaching logic in man's behavior throughout his existence. I agree with Winston Churchhill. "Man will do the right thing once he has exhausted every other possibility." That said, those societies that are fundamental in their beliefs have proven to be dangerous. From the "Salem witchcraft" era to present day Muslims who, though Koranic teachers, believe a woman who is raped must suffer death to perserve the reputation of their family. Also, when you say that every century of man's existence has been filled with religious faith due to this DNA, I must say that, though interesting and thought provoking, I disagree. Throughout history, the leaders of religion have not believed in the Gods they have advertised. Rather, they have used these Gods to keep people in fear. You sound like a learned individual and you know of what I speak. Man's reactions, I do not believe, cannot be evidence of anything supernatural. Now, I have faith but that faith is not based on feeling but logic. In an infinite universe, I think the concept that the only life exists on a planet so small (Earth), it might as well not even exist, is insane. If there is other life, then there may other ways of creating life, forms of life (after life for example),ect. I think the only emperical evidence we have of this is the hypothesis itself. It's a helluva an educated guess and I believe it to be correct. I don't know that it's correct.

@Sooners

I don't disagree with that actually. I believe it's inborn to believe in "something" but through 5000k years of evolution humans more than ever are influenced by the beliefs around them. A complex herding instinct is how I've always described it. Born in the USA, you're a God fearin red blooded American. Born in Syria and you're a God fearin' Muslim. Born in India and you're Hindu or Buddhist.

Think back to the early civilizations. They were able to organize on such a massive scale thanks in large part to their theocracies. Power wasn't question because the government and religion were the same. This is how societies like Egypt prospered. This is how the Pyramids got built.

Clearly the selective advantage of mass-effect hive-mind religion on a macro scale has been laid bare.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

@Sooners

I don't disagree with that actually. I believe it's inborn to believe in "something" but through 5000k years of evolution humans more than ever are influenced by the beliefs around them. A complex herding instinct is how I've always described it. Born in the USA, you're a God fearin red blooded American. Born in Syria and you're a God fearin' Muslim. Born in India and you're Hindu or Buddhist.

Think back to the early civilizations. They were able to organize on such a massive scale thanks in large part to their theocracies. Power wasn't question because the government and religion were the same. This is how societies like Egypt prospered. This is how the Pyramids got built.

Clearly the selective advantage of mass-effect hive-mind religion on a macro scale has been laid bare.

I completely agree Wolf.

I have always found it interesting that Muslims pray to "Allah" which is just an Arabic word for "God". So really everyone is praying to "God". In my mind they are all praying to the same person/being or whatever. Things break down with how the different groups choose to interpret the bible and other historic writings and events.

Quote :

Wolf, I appreciate the passion of your argument and it's very interesting. The concept of man having DNA that somehow gives him knowledge of some type of "living God." However, and I speak for myself here, I haven't seen anything approaching logic in man's behavior throughout his existence. I agree with Winston Churchhill. "Man will do the right thing once he has exhausted every other possibility." That said, those societies that are fundamental in their beliefs have proven to be dangerous. From the "Salem witchcraft" era to present day Muslims who, though Koranic teachers, believe a woman who is raped must suffer death to perserve the reputation of their family. Also, when you say that every century of man's existence has been filled with religious faith due to this DNA, I must say that, though interesting and thought provoking, I disagree. Throughout history, the leaders of religion have not believed in the Gods they have advertised. Rather, they have used these Gods to keep people in fear. You sound like a learned individual and you know of what I speak. Man's reactions, I do not believe, cannot be evidence of anything supernatural. Now, I have faith but that faith is not based on feeling but logic. In an infinite universe, I think the concept that the only life exists on a planet so small (Earth), it might as well not even exist, is insane. If there is other life, then there may other ways of creating life, forms of life (after life for example),ect. I think the only emperical evidence we have of this is the hypothesis itself. It's a helluva an educated guess and I believe it to be correct. I don't know that it's correct.

I'm an atheist bro. I believe we evolved faith in the super natural as a coping, organization and defense mechanism. I didn't argue that there is some gene that proves God exists. I lost you somewhere in this discussion. Re-read what I said.

Think about what you said - the leaders. The leaders don't comprise the entire population, but rather .01%.

Small, tiny exceptions to the rule prove nothing, except in this case that the leaders of these faiths don't believe either. This validates my reasoning that religion specifically is an evolved organizational tool. In ancient Egypt for example the pharaohs took power because they figured out through science and rationality when the floods would come, and then came to the people and claimed they caused them.

Egypt goes on to become one of the most successful empires and societies in history, and clearly a selective advantage goes to those who believe and uphold the religious status quo. Those that didn't would be killed sooner. Thereby passing on more genes into the human genome that support mass-faith and mass-religion.

Religion has further ingrained itself into our existence by driving evolution.

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

I have always found it interesting that Muslims pray to "Allah" which is just an Arabic word for "God". So really everyone is praying to "God". In my mind they are all praying to the same person/being or whatever. Things break down with how the different groups choose to interpret the bible and other historic writings and events.

Certainly you know that Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all branches of the same religious tree right? It's technically the same exact God.

So Wolf would you say that much the same way the Romans and Greeks used mythology to explain certain events such as earthquakes and floods, we do something similar to help explain things we don't understand? Or use it to give us comfort for things we can't explain?

Both SOONERS.

Humans unlike other animals have a mind specifically designed to problem solve. That is our one true adaptive feature. We don't have strong bones, muscles, teeth, or any anatomical features that alone give us any sort of advantage in survive. Our primary tool is our mind. You can have opposable thumbs and still live in the ecological niche of a squirrel. It's our mind and our problem solving ability. We're not governed by simple instincts like typical animals. Imagine the frustration for early humans at all the giant unanswerable questions out there.


Further, we've developed complex emotional and social systems with very deep lying bonds between us. Imagine how terrible life would be without the promise of "something better" and lost loved ones at the end of the tunnel. Selective advantage goes to the mother who through faith holds out hope to see her dead kids again, and carries on with her life over the one who refuses to mate, or even eat because she is so stricken with the grief in the full knowledge her kids are gone forever and no longer exist in any plane or medium other than the rotting cells of lifeless flesh that remain in this dimension.

We REALLY dont need ANOTHER religious debate on here.