Muhammad Ali : The Walking Contradiction

completely agree captain

Don was like wait what the fuck your calling a black man a monkey and uncle tom

shhhhheeeeeet

Two points:

1. Ali did a ton in empowering and uplifting the black community. A lot of the terrible/questionable things he did as a person made him even more popular as a figure.

2. Ali helped more people than he hurt. If you look at the net impact of the people he has affected, it is overwhelmingly positive (maybe not rightly so, but it is what it is).

captainanddew wrote:

when Don King has a look that says, "whoa did he just say what I think he said", then you know you've gone too far.

THAT is a pretty fair benchmark I'd say!

marbleheadmaui wrote:

captainanddew wrote:

when Don King has a look that says, "whoa did he just say what I think he said", then you know you've gone too far.

THAT is a pretty fair benchmark I'd say!

I'm going to tell my version of the truth in relation to Manila. Lots of people are "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" this thing because of the HBO specials. Back when this was happening, I think a number of things which are being denied are true.


(1) Don King was laughing his ass off when Ali was "Alone" calling Frazier a gorilla and hitting the little rubber gorilla doll. The expression you saw on Don's face was really fear. He admitted that his number one concern was that there would be no fight because Ali and Frazier were going to handle this in the streets.

(2) A great deal of people who claim to be offended by Ali's taunting of Joe Frazier were laughing their ass off at the time. It's ok to look back and admit to being insensitive. Allow Ali the same luxury.

(3) Ali had the "Big Head" after knocking out George Foreman. During this time, he was at his most exciting or obnoxious, depending on your view of him. Couple that with the dangerous and murderous "Nation of Islam" controlling his life and you have an Ali who's at his worst. With all the twists and turns this man's life took, I don't think the conduct he exhibited in Manilla should be the sole barometer we use.

(4) Joe the victim: Well, if I can count the times I've praised Joe Frazier and condemned Ali for his behavior towards Frazier, I'd be here all day. However, there's another side to this coin. Was Joe that unfortunate? Listen, I have some people I'd love to get in the ring and beat the living shit out of. I'll never get the chance and it's illegal to attack them in the streets. lol: Joe hated Ali more than anyone in the world. However, he was given 3 fights to work out his anger and did very well in 2 of them. I personally think he gave Ali a more serious beating in Manila than he did in the Garden. He got a chance not many of us get against "That One Person" who we really hate and was able to let go on him. I regret that his family suffered but he did have a chance to beat the shit out of Ali and did just that.

(5) In my honest opinion, it's time to leave past mistakes behind where Manila's concerned. Two great fighters engaged in what may have been the most brutal heavyweight fight ever. Let's celebrate it for what it is. A moment of pure greatness.

Birdofthad wrote:

Tobe06 wrote:

Ali had his flaws like any other person. At the end of the day he was a man of principles who passed on money and fame in the prime of his career to stand up for what be believed. Over the years he's clearly distanced himself from the Nation of Islam and their militancy and corruption (calling for segregation, etc. were never Ali's ideas); and he remains one of the best bridges to moderate muslims the Western world has.

The reason he was and is so well loved stems from him being principled, charismatic, articulate and funny; while also being a great boxer. Sure he talked trash; he was ahead of his time, and people in the 60s and 70s had no idea how to react to that. In retrospect all of that was done with a wink and nod to "Gorgeous George" and the "heel" wrestling caricatures Ali drew on for inspiration.

Boxing is sport, but also entertainment. Few understood that as well as Ali. His media savvy was incredible for that day and age. "Sure I know where Vietnam is - it's on TV". Brilliant.

Ali's impact on sports and society is probably greater than any other athlete. He is my hero.

go read some books Tobe, Ray Robinson was there when Muhammad Ali was crying saying they (Nation of Islam, mainly elijah Muhammad, another draft dodger) wont let me go fight.

Ali wasnt doing this for principle, he knew he would likely be killed by the Nation if he didnt listen to them

You may wish to "read some books" yourself my friend; may I suggest something about the history of the Vietnam war? Or the rasict, classist draft structure? Now, while I'm sure Ali was chomping at the bit to go and die in that pointless war as you assert here; the fact is he stood up for millions of Americans who opposed the war, and that legacy (having been proven right by history) is one of the main reasons is seen as a hero by so many.

Tobe06 wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

Tobe06 wrote:

Ali had his flaws like any other person. At the end of the day he was a man of principles who passed on money and fame in the prime of his career to stand up for what be believed. Over the years he's clearly distanced himself from the Nation of Islam and their militancy and corruption (calling for segregation, etc. were never Ali's ideas); and he remains one of the best bridges to moderate muslims the Western world has.

The reason he was and is so well loved stems from him being principled, charismatic, articulate and funny; while also being a great boxer. Sure he talked trash; he was ahead of his time, and people in the 60s and 70s had no idea how to react to that. In retrospect all of that was done with a wink and nod to "Gorgeous George" and the "heel" wrestling caricatures Ali drew on for inspiration.

Boxing is sport, but also entertainment. Few understood that as well as Ali. His media savvy was incredible for that day and age. "Sure I know where Vietnam is - it's on TV". Brilliant.

Ali's impact on sports and society is probably greater than any other athlete. He is my hero.

go read some books Tobe, Ray Robinson was there when Muhammad Ali was crying saying they (Nation of Islam, mainly elijah Muhammad, another draft dodger) wont let me go fight.

Ali wasnt doing this for principle, he knew he would likely be killed by the Nation if he didnt listen to them

You may wish to "read some books" yourself my friend; may I suggest something about the history of the Vietnam war? Or the rasict, classist draft structure? Now, while I'm sure Ali was chomping at the bit to go and die in that pointless war as you assert here; the fact is he stood up for millions of Americans who opposed the war, and that legacy (having been proven right by history) is one of the main reasons is seen as a hero by so many.

I think you make a good point, Tobe, but may I modestly suggest leaving the past in the past? This debate over "Nam" will go on forever. However, what if Bird said the following: "Let me give you a hypothetical situation. The Empire State Building is blown up by a terrorist band of Muslims in 1966. Ali is drafted and "Elijah Muhammad" orders him to object to his draft status?" What would you say then? I believe in telling the brutal, honest truth as I know it. As a kid, I would've agreed with you 100 percent. As a college student, 1000 percent. As a man, I see "Elijah Muhammad" as a monster who saw Ali as a gold mine. He didn't want him out of his grasp. He may've lost Ali if Muhammad went to Nam. When you read about "Elijah Muhammad" one of the sickest most vile gangsters in history, you would at least consider that opinion. (Note: If you ever get your hands on the book, "Black Brothers Inc.", read it.)

4445Frank wrote:

Tobe06 wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

Tobe06 wrote:

Ali had his flaws like any other person. At the end of the day he was a man of principles who passed on money and fame in the prime of his career to stand up for what be believed. Over the years he's clearly distanced himself from the Nation of Islam and their militancy and corruption (calling for segregation, etc. were never Ali's ideas); and he remains one of the best bridges to moderate muslims the Western world has.

The reason he was and is so well loved stems from him being principled, charismatic, articulate and funny; while also being a great boxer. Sure he talked trash; he was ahead of his time, and people in the 60s and 70s had no idea how to react to that. In retrospect all of that was done with a wink and nod to "Gorgeous George" and the "heel" wrestling caricatures Ali drew on for inspiration.

Boxing is sport, but also entertainment. Few understood that as well as Ali. His media savvy was incredible for that day and age. "Sure I know where Vietnam is - it's on TV". Brilliant.

Ali's impact on sports and society is probably greater than any other athlete. He is my hero.

go read some books Tobe, Ray Robinson was there when Muhammad Ali was crying saying they (Nation of Islam, mainly elijah Muhammad, another draft dodger) wont let me go fight.

Ali wasnt doing this for principle, he knew he would likely be killed by the Nation if he didnt listen to them

You may wish to "read some books" yourself my friend; may I suggest something about the history of the Vietnam war? Or the rasict, classist draft structure? Now, while I'm sure Ali was chomping at the bit to go and die in that pointless war as you assert here; the fact is he stood up for millions of Americans who opposed the war, and that legacy (having been proven right by history) is one of the main reasons is seen as a hero by so many.

I think you make a good point, Tobe, but may I modestly suggest leaving the past in the past? This debate over "Nam" will go on forever. However, what if Bird said the following: "Let me give you a hypothetical situation. The Empire State Building is blown up by a terrorist band of Muslims in 1966. Ali is drafted and "Elijah Muhammad" orders him to object to his draft status?" What would you say then? I believe in telling the brutal, honest truth as I know it. As a kid, I would've agreed with you 100 percent. As a college student, 1000 percent. As a man, I see "Elijah Muhammad" as a monster who saw Ali as a gold mine. He didn't want him out of his grasp. He may've lost Ali if Muhammad went to Nam. When you read about "Elijah Muhammad" one of the sickest most vile gangsters in history, you would at least consider that opinion. (Note: If you ever get your hands on the book, "Black Brothers Inc.", read it.)

Fair enough Frank; I'm happy to let it die. Pretty clear Elijah Muhammed was an evil bastard, but I did note that Ali distanced himself from the Nation by the mid-70s.

As for Nam, being Canadian I have a different perspective on that and really no business telling Americans how they should feel one way or the other. Just have to learn to keep my mouth shut!

Hey Tobe you are smoking some strong stuff if you think Ali would have sniffed combat

he would have done exactly what Joe Louis did fight exhibitions for troops, many people including Ray Robinson and Joe Louis told him this flat out, he would have gone had he not been scared the N.O.I. would Malcom X him, he wasnt against the war until he got drafted. the hippies just latched all their ideals onto him.

he was a pawn for the Nation of Islam nothing more nothing less

Birdofthad wrote:

Hey Tobe you are smoking some strong stuff if you think Ali would have sniffed combat

he would have done exactly what Joe Louis did fight exhibitions for troops, many people including Ray Robinson and Joe Louis told him this flat out, he would have gone had he not been scared the N.O.I. would Malcom X him, he wasnt against the war until he got drafted. the hippies just latched all their ideals onto him.

he was a pawn for the Nation of Islam nothing more nothing less

Of course he wouldn't have seen combat, that's not the point. He would have been used as a pawn by the Army and government to promote the war and deter dissent on the home front, encouraging other young black men to fight. That would have been counter to his beliefs, NOI aside. Ali was attracted to the rhetoric of the NOI (as wrong as it was) out of frustration at the systemic racism he saw and experienced; and wasn't about to play an active role in that system.

But, like I said to Frank, it's not really my place to argue over Nam with Americans. I just feel that in the end Ali was proven to be in the right morally; and that is a key to his legacy. Without it, he's simply another boxer, another "Dancing Bear" to entertain and distract the people while injustices continue.

Tobe06 wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

Hey Tobe you are smoking some strong stuff if you think Ali would have sniffed combat

he would have done exactly what Joe Louis did fight exhibitions for troops, many people including Ray Robinson and Joe Louis told him this flat out, he would have gone had he not been scared the N.O.I. would Malcom X him, he wasnt against the war until he got drafted. the hippies just latched all their ideals onto him.

he was a pawn for the Nation of Islam nothing more nothing less

Of course he wouldn't have seen combat, that's not the point. He would have been used as a pawn by the Army and government to promote the war and deter dissent on the home front, encouraging other young black men to fight. That would have been counter to his beliefs, NOI aside. Ali was attracted to the rhetoric of the NOI (as wrong as it was) out of frustration at the systemic racism he saw and experienced; and wasn't about to play an active role in that system.

But, like I said to Frank, it's not really my place to argue over Nam with Americans. I just feel that in the end Ali was proven to be in the right morally; and that is a key to his legacy. Without it, he's simply another boxer, another "Dancing Bear" to entertain and distract the people while injustices continue.

Good point, Tobe. Make no mistake about it. You have every right to argue with Ameicans or anyone else over Nam. That's my opinion. Thats' what we're for. To give opinions.

Tobe06 wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

Hey Tobe you are smoking some strong stuff if you think Ali would have sniffed combat

he would have done exactly what Joe Louis did fight exhibitions for troops, many people including Ray Robinson and Joe Louis told him this flat out, he would have gone had he not been scared the N.O.I. would Malcom X him, he wasnt against the war until he got drafted. the hippies just latched all their ideals onto him.

he was a pawn for the Nation of Islam nothing more nothing less

Of course he wouldn't have seen combat, that's not the point. He would have been used as a pawn by the Army and government to promote the war and deter dissent on the home front, encouraging other young black men to fight. That would have been counter to his beliefs, NOI aside. Ali was attracted to the rhetoric of the NOI (as wrong as it was) out of frustration at the systemic racism he saw and experienced; and wasn't about to play an active role in that system.

But, like I said to Frank, it's not really my place to argue over Nam with Americans. I just feel that in the end Ali was proven to be in the right morally; and that is a key to his legacy. Without it, he's simply another boxer, another "Dancing Bear" to entertain and distract the people while injustices continue.

Two things. OF COURSE you can weigh-in on Vietnam and other American issues. You don't need to experience something to have valuable thoughts about it. You ever fought professionally?

Second, what was validated was Ali's view that conscientious objection is legit, NOT his view on the war.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Tobe06 wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

Hey Tobe you are smoking some strong stuff if you think Ali would have sniffed combat

he would have done exactly what Joe Louis did fight exhibitions for troops, many people including Ray Robinson and Joe Louis told him this flat out, he would have gone had he not been scared the N.O.I. would Malcom X him, he wasnt against the war until he got drafted. the hippies just latched all their ideals onto him.

he was a pawn for the Nation of Islam nothing more nothing less

Of course he wouldn't have seen combat, that's not the point. He would have been used as a pawn by the Army and government to promote the war and deter dissent on the home front, encouraging other young black men to fight. That would have been counter to his beliefs, NOI aside. Ali was attracted to the rhetoric of the NOI (as wrong as it was) out of frustration at the systemic racism he saw and experienced; and wasn't about to play an active role in that system.

But, like I said to Frank, it's not really my place to argue over Nam with Americans. I just feel that in the end Ali was proven to be in the right morally; and that is a key to his legacy. Without it, he's simply another boxer, another "Dancing Bear" to entertain and distract the people while injustices continue.

Two things. OF COURSE you can weigh-in on Vietnam and other American issues. You don't need to experience something to have valuable thoughts about it. You ever fought professionally?

Second, what was validated was Ali's view that conscientious objection is legit, NOT his view on the war.

Well said, Marble.