Is takedown defense getting better...

I guess the simple answer is yes, and that's to be expected as the sport evolves. For years, wrestling, overall, has dominated the striker and BJJ practitioner in MMA, but I feel like the tide is turning.

I was really impressed with Cavalcante's takedown defense against Mo, who I didn't think anyone would be able to sprawl in this division for very long in any fight, but he did it time and time again. He seemed to have no problem with it and comes from a non-wrestling background. Lyoto Machida is another guy that seems impossible to take down and another non-wrestler. Jose Aldo is in the same boat. Anyone notice that lately or am I alone?

well the longer the fight went the easier it was for Cavalcante to defend it being Mo was getting tired quick and his take downs got weaker and weaker as time went bye.

but yes agreed

I wonder what % of MMA fighters have had some kind of wrestling background. Even if it was just a couple years in high school.

Quote :

[Wrestling is the best base for MMA]...is the common thought process out there. I obviously don't doubt it's one of the best, but there is a wealth of evidence to point to Brazil's continued relevancy in the MMA world. For every Warren over Pitbull and Fitch over Alves there is a counter example of Brazilian martial arts continued success at the highest level.


Jose Aldo def Mike Brown and Urijah Faber
Jacare Souza def Tim Kennedy and Matt Lindland
Feijao def King Mo
Machida def Rashad Evans
Anderson Silva def Chael Sonnen
Junior Dos Santos def Roy Nelson
Werdum def Fedor


The question is do these type of fights represent the last gasps of sprawl and brawl MT fighters and the guard itself, or do they represent a counter evolution of Brazilian fighters that will continue to compete with the influx of wrestlers? I believe it is the latter. The sport has gone through these cycles before. In predator-prey evolution in nature, when a new selective advantage appears in a predator species, immediately counter measures develop in prey species. A big reason Brazilian strikers and grapplers will continue to find success against dominating wrestlers is Brazilian martial arts are finishing arts, where wrestling is not. It's much easier to turn the tide on a wrestler with a triangle or knee than it is for a wrestler to finish the fight with a slam. Factor that with ever improving wrestling from Brazilian fighters like JDS, Feijao, Jacare and especially Jose Aldo, who right now looks like the best wrestler in his weight class(and he's actually a BJJ fighter who operates as a KO artist) and I don't think we can close the book on the best starting point for MMA quite yet.

This is a post I made the other day, which touches on the same point.

How do arts like Sambo and Judo factor in this? Because in both some official contexts and in practicality, those martial arts are forms of wrestling.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the entire art of BJJ become more focused on wrestling and positioning in itself, in addition to submission fighting on the ground.

About King Mo, he was fighting on a completely blown knee and has been for a while. Take that for what it's worth.

He's almost 30. Five years too late Mo?

Will wrestling start to become more and more popular in other countries?

Wolfgangsta wrote:

About King Mo, he was fighting on a completely blown knee and has been for a while. Take that for what it's worth.

He's almost 30. Five years too late Mo?

Yah hes late to the party, this knee injury will keep him out for at least a year, and you never know if hes going to fully recover from it.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

About King Mo, he was fighting on a completely blown knee and has been for a while. Take that for what it's worth.

He's almost 30. Five years too late Mo?

Mo is still very green for being almost 30. But at the same time he shows great potential. He has speed and wrestling and those are some of the best bases for MMA. Hard to tell how Mo will be in 2 years.

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

About King Mo, he was fighting on a completely blown knee and has been for a while. Take that for what it's worth.

He's almost 30. Five years too late Mo?

Mo is still very green for being almost 30. But at the same time he shows great potential. He has speed and wrestling and those are some of the best bases for MMA. Hard to tell how Mo will be in 2 years.

I think he needs to change his training, focus more on cardio, he doesn't need all those muscles

killerofchicken wrote:

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

About King Mo, he was fighting on a completely blown knee and has been for a while. Take that for what it's worth.

He's almost 30. Five years too late Mo?

Mo is still very green for being almost 30. But at the same time he shows great potential. He has speed and wrestling and those are some of the best bases for MMA. Hard to tell how Mo will be in 2 years.

I think he needs to change his training, focus more on cardio, he doesn't need all those muscles

I don't know about that. I think he fell in love with his standup the way too many wrestlers do. Just like Rashad and Kos, they have a little success standing and they forget their bread and butter. They all had to learn the hard way.

Mo is definitely late in the game. Probably pursued a wrestling career for too long.

I definitely think that stand-up training will now include sprawling the same way it includes the 1-2. With that, wrestlers will have to evolve again.

OUSOONERSOU wrote:

Will wrestling start to become more and more popular in other countries?

I think it already has

Obviously, guys are getting more well rounded as the sport grows and progresses. However, many fights are still won by takedowns and gNp. I don't necessarily think takedown defense is getting any better than the takedowns themselves. Some guys can sprawl brilliantly and some guys can shoot for the takedown brilliantly.

Also, the talent pool continues to get deeper as more people see MMA as a viable career choice. The future of this sport is very bright and we are going to see more phenom's like Bones and Cain come along. The overall skill level of fighters is going to increase because kids begin training at a younger age for MMA instead of one discipline specifically.

Bigs03 wrote:

Obviously, guys are getting more well rounded as the sport grows and progresses. However, many fights are still won by takedowns and gNp. I don't necessarily think takedown defense is getting any better than the takedowns themselves. Some guys can sprawl brilliantly and some guys can shoot for the takedown brilliantly.

Also, the talent pool continues to get deeper as more people see MMA as a viable career choice. The future of this sport is very bright and we are going to see more phenom's like Bones and Cain come along. The overall skill level of fighters is going to increase because kids begin training at a younger age for MMA instead of one discipline specifically.

Cain and Bones are a great blueprint. Young guys with great wrestling bases who dive into stand-up striking right after college are probably the future, of course Aldo is blazing a pretty good trail too.

I think it has improved greatly and initially guys with wrestling backrounds use it and as they develop forget to use it, ie. Chck Liddell. Chuck should have developed more of a GNP technique as the years progressed, but his chin and devestating right kept him in the game. The only wrestler per say to have developed but not forgotten his bread and butter is probably Randy. You have other guys with non-wrestling backgrounds like GSP who have purposefully developed into devestating takedown artist.

As to the aforementioned of wrestling development worldwide, I think it will slowly progress, even into merging the tactics of BJJ and freestyle wrestling. However, with the growth of the sport in the U.S., I have seen more and more high school students trying out or working out with wrestling in recent years. In fact my wife's school is starting a wrestling team this year and I have been asked to be an assistant coach since there is only one teacher with any background in the sport and I am the only spouse with any background. This is going to be interesting, to say the least.

A lot of this is predicated on athleticism. Wrestling as a college sport is going to garner a higher level of athlete than Judo is, on average.

I agree with Big's, we've seen some top level guys completely unable to stop a takedown, Spider being exhibit One, but other recent fights, Askren hornbuckle, Warren vs Pit Bull, Fitch vs Alves, GSP vs whomever, Cain vs whomever, heck even Shields vs Hendo.

We still see plenty of fights where guys are completely unable to stop the takedowns of their opponents.