I COULD BE WRONG, BUT

Pre-Roy Jones I simply cannot recall fighters behaving the way Floyd Mayweather, Joe Calzaghe, David Haye and Roy conduct or conducted their business.

As painful as Ray Leonard could be to deal with, nobody can question that the guy didn't go out of his way to take on great challenges. Before Leonard for the most part the title, in most cases the ONLY title, equalled money and prestige. There was simply no way to avoid fighting contenders and still make big money and claim greatness. Now I think most fighters today still embrace the sports most basic ethic. Which is pretty simple. It's an organized game of King of the Hill.

But now we've had a series of fighters, most notably the four above, who have avoided obvious and compelling challenges and have somehow managed to convince some fans that they can achieve greatness while not competing on the biggest most dangerous hill. It's bizzarre.

Why is Calzaghe being dragged into this ?? Glen Johnson is the only guy he avoided. Tried to face Hopkins in 2002 but Bernard demanded more money, Sven Ottke ducked him like the plague and Roy didn't even want to face the current Lineal Light Heavyweight champion at the time.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Pre-Roy Jones I simply cannot recall fighters behaving the way Floyd Mayweather, Joe Calzaghe, David Haye and Roy conduct or conducted their business.

As painful as Ray Leonard could be to deal with, nobody can question that the guy didn't go out of his way to take on great challenges. Before Leonard for the most part the title, in most cases the ONLY title, equalled money and prestige. There was simply no way to avoid fighting contenders and still make big money and claim greatness. Now I think most fighters today still embrace the sports most basic ethic. Which is pretty simple. It's an organized game of King of the Hill.

But now we've had a series of fighters, most notably the four above, who have avoided obvious and compelling challenges and have somehow managed to convince some fans that they can achieve greatness while not competing on the biggest most dangerous hill. It's bizzarre.

I agree with your point (all except for Calzaghe.). It's like boxing's version of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers." All sane boxing fans have is each other. As long as we listen to each other, we can maintain our sanity. Just remember, the Flomos are always watching. LOL

Ali_1748 wrote:

Why is Calzaghe being dragged into this ?? Glen Johnson is the only guy he avoided. Tried to face Hopkins in 2002 but Bernard demanded more money, Sven Ottke ducked him like the plague and Roy didn't even want to face the current Lineal Light Heavyweight champion at the time.

Nigel Benn, Frankie Liles, a prime Roy Jones, Glencoffe. Then trying to argue beating 40+ year old BHOP and RJJ consitutes beating legends?

nigel benn? well eubank was over the hill when calzaghe beat him, so surely benn was too. Although calzaghe beats a prime benn, eubank and as much as i hate to say it, he beats collins too. He beats johnson, not sure about prime roy or bhop cos neither wanted to fight him, and ottke? why even bother trying to fight him, altho he ducked joe too, calzaghe faced a prime kessler, who many believed would knock his head off, faced jeff lacy, who got battered so badly that he was never the same again, ill never be able to change you guys opinion of joe, but ill just say, i dont agree with it

Ali_1748 wrote:

Why is Calzaghe being dragged into this ?? Glen Johnson is the only guy he avoided. Tried to face Hopkins in 2002 but Bernard demanded more money, Sven Ottke ducked him like the plague and Roy didn't even want to face the current Lineal Light Heavyweight champion at the time.

I agree.

Canvas wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

Why is Calzaghe being dragged into this ?? Glen Johnson is the only guy he avoided. Tried to face Hopkins in 2002 but Bernard demanded more money, Sven Ottke ducked him like the plague and Roy didn't even want to face the current Lineal Light Heavyweight champion at the time.

I agree.

But aren't you just making excuses for a guy you happen to like? You either make the fights or you don't. Giving men credit for what they have NOT done seems crazy to me. But it is the coming trend.

I think Calzaghe is dragged into it because he never crossed the pond to fight higher profile guys. It came across as staying in his comfort zone. Because he wasn't the big name the expectation would be for him to chase the other guys and prove himself.

It may have started with Roy, but it's a generational thing. Guys value their money and health more than their legend in the sport. Everyone's a "businessman" now. An awareness of how the past greats ended up, most importantly Ali, probably contributed. Throw in greedy promoters, tons of money for fighting bums, television deals, more bargaining power for individual fighter's, huge egos, and all that...and the lack of consequences for not fighting the best seems small in comparison to taking the easy way.

It's much more complicated, but it's become an accepted part of the sport except for fans. Guys still get paid, still get to put their talent on display and live in a little bubble where they're the best ever. Somewhere the idea that you constantly have to prove yourself slipped away and everyone could claim they were proven and blame non-boxing reasons for not taking fights (Fighter X doesn't generate $ or interest) which actually make business sense, but do nothing for the sport.

More talking, less fighting its what its come to

See Khan and Berto

Great match making and winning on tv and think they are the shit w/out really proving much

Gumby wrote:

I think Calzaghe is dragged into it because he never crossed the pond to fight higher profile guys. It came across as staying in his comfort zone. Because he wasn't the big name the expectation would be for him to chase the other guys and prove himself.

It may have started with Roy, but it's a generational thing. Guys value their money and health more than their legend in the sport. Everyone's a "businessman" now. An awareness of how the past greats ended up, most importantly Ali, probably contributed. Throw in greedy promoters, tons of money for fighting bums, television deals, more bargaining power for individual fighter's, huge egos, and all that...and the lack of consequences for not fighting the best seems small in comparison to taking the easy way.

It's much more complicated, but it's become an accepted part of the sport except for fans. Guys still get paid, still get to put their talent on display and live in a little bubble where they're the best ever. Somewhere the idea that you constantly have to prove yourself slipped away and everyone could claim they were proven and blame non-boxing reasons for not taking fights (Fighter X doesn't generate $ or interest) which actually make business sense, but do nothing for the sport.

DAMN! I wish I'd written THAT! Awesome.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

Why is Calzaghe being dragged into this ?? Glen Johnson is the only guy he avoided. Tried to face Hopkins in 2002 but Bernard demanded more money, Sven Ottke ducked him like the plague and Roy didn't even want to face the current Lineal Light Heavyweight champion at the time.

Nigel Benn, Frankie Liles, a prime Roy Jones, Glencoffe. Then trying to argue beating 40+ year old BHOP and RJJ consitutes beating legends?

Nigel Benn was done by the time Joe appeared.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Canvas wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

Why is Calzaghe being dragged into this ?? Glen Johnson is the only guy he avoided. Tried to face Hopkins in 2002 but Bernard demanded more money, Sven Ottke ducked him like the plague and Roy didn't even want to face the current Lineal Light Heavyweight champion at the time.

I agree.

But aren't you just making excuses for a guy you happen to like? You either make the fights or you don't. Giving men credit for what they have NOT done seems crazy to me. But it is the coming trend.

Seems to me you're overlooking the fact it was hard for Joe to secure big fights because of the egos of Hopkins and RJJ.

Ali_1748 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Canvas wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

Why is Calzaghe being dragged into this ?? Glen Johnson is the only guy he avoided. Tried to face Hopkins in 2002 but Bernard demanded more money, Sven Ottke ducked him like the plague and Roy didn't even want to face the current Lineal Light Heavyweight champion at the time.

I agree.

But aren't you just making excuses for a guy you happen to like? You either make the fights or you don't. Giving men credit for what they have NOT done seems crazy to me. But it is the coming trend.

Seems to me you're overlooking the fact it was hard for Joe to secure big fights because of the egos of Hopkins and RJJ.

LOL and fighters in previous eras didn't have GIGANTIC egos?????????? Come one!

You are simply making excuses that enable you to compare the not fully tested to the fully tested aren't you?

I mean the question isn't does JC belong in the category I placed him, it is can one make an argument he belongs with the greats? I think the clear answer is one can't.

So Bernard Hopkins suddenly asking for double his money in 2002 even when the deal was reached is an excuse ?

Ali_1748 wrote:

So Bernard Hopkins suddenly asking for double his money in 2002 even when the deal was reached is an excuse ?

ANYTHING that simply accepts a fighter not fully testing himself is an excuse.

The sport worked and was judged one way for what? 115 years? And in the last 15 suddenly fighters are no longer responsible for their careers?

You've lost me Marble I am not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

It's an excuse even though Calzaghe was trying to test himself against Hopkins ?

pretty simple, dont do this

Quote :

"You are simply making excuses that enable you to compare the not fully tested to the fully tested aren't you?"

Ali_1748 wrote:

You've lost me Marble I am not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

It's an excuse even though Calzaghe was trying to test himself against Hopkins ?

Yup.

Greats of the past FOUND WAYS TO MAKE FIGHTS. They simply didn't accept NOT making them. Now somehow fans flock to the "but, but, but" approach rather than holding fighters (to the degree we can) accountable.

The "but, but, but" is what ENABLES fighters to walk away from negotiations rather than FIND A WAY to make the fight and stay in fans good graces.

Maybe his shoes were too small?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

You've lost me Marble I am not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

It's an excuse even though Calzaghe was trying to test himself against Hopkins ?

Yup.

Greats of the past FOUND WAYS TO MAKE FIGHTS. They simply didn't accept NOT making them. Now somehow fans flock to the "but, but, but" approach rather than holding fighters (to the degree we can) accountable.

The "but, but, but" is what ENABLES fighters to walk away from negotiations rather than FIND A WAY to make the fight and stay in fans good graces.

Maybe his shoes were too small?

Marvin Hagler for example.

come on Calzaghe falls into this category

lets not say BHOPs ego is why it didnt get made, the ego didnt stop him from jumping into the middleweight tourney when he was considered the 3rd or 4th best fighter in the tourney going into it

were all the fights that didnt happen Calzaghes fault? of course not, but they didnt get made so he belongs

Pardon me - Marvelous Marvin Hagler.

Riddick Bowe comes to mind as well

I don't agree at all Marble, politics have stopped fights from happening ever since the 90's.

NBrooks5 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Ali_1748 wrote:

You've lost me Marble I am not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

It's an excuse even though Calzaghe was trying to test himself against Hopkins ?

Yup.

Greats of the past FOUND WAYS TO MAKE FIGHTS. They simply didn't accept NOT making them. Now somehow fans flock to the "but, but, but" approach rather than holding fighters (to the degree we can) accountable.

The "but, but, but" is what ENABLES fighters to walk away from negotiations rather than FIND A WAY to make the fight and stay in fans good graces.

Maybe his shoes were too small?

Marvin Hagler for example.

Can you imagine what Marvin would have done had he heard someone else claiming to be middleweight champion?

"Petronelli's Gym"

"Goody, it's Marvelous! YOU TELL THAT MOTHERFUCKER THAT I'LL FIGHT HIM FOR FREE...IN HIS PARENT'S BACKYARD...WITH HIS BROTHER REFEREEING...AND HIS COUSINS JUDGING! Get as much money as you can, but make the fight. I'M GONNA KILL THAT MOTHERFUCKER!"

Ali_1748 wrote:

I don't agree at all Marble, politics have stopped fights from happening ever since the 90's.

Just making excuses. Oscar fought everybody, so did Tito, Manny's done plenty, Ricardo Lopez fought everyone, Izzy and Raffy fought excellent resumes. Need I keep going?