THE GREAT WHAT IFS

I am thinking of things that happened outside the ring that really changed the sport inside the ring. In no order.

If Joe Gans hadn't contracted Tuberculosis-The Old Master was well into his thirties when writers began to notice physical changes in Gans. Declining energy levels, bleary eyes etc. Gans was KO'd twice by Battling Nelson, whom he had previously defeated. Given that he went 17 and 20 rounds in those fights only a year before his death at 34, it seems likely Gans would have won those fights and perhaps been lightweight king for another few years. Perhaps the debate today wouldn't be Leonard or Duran as the greatest lightweight, but which is second behind Gans?

If Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills had found a promoter to make a fight in 1922-1923-Wills was 215 pounds of muscle at 6'2. A big puncher but not the fastest guy around. My own belief is Dempsey FEASTED on big, slow guys and that Jack would have hammered Wills. In 1922, Wills had been held to a draw by Dempsey's favorite sparring partner Bill Tate. But there is no question Wills deserved a shot. Had that fight happened, then perhaps a man like George Godfrey may have fought for, and even won, the crown in the divisional mayhem that followed Gene Tunney's retirement. Maybe Joe Louis wouldn't have had to be such a breakthrough.

If Pancho Villa had paid attention to his doctor-Villa died at 23 basically because he refused to take care of himself following surgery. The doctors didn't screw up, Villa did. He was coming off a catchweight loss to ATG Jimmy McLarnin. He had some GREAT names available to fight had he lived. Frankie Genarro, Fidel LaBarba, Newsboy Brown, a third fight with bantamweight legend Bud Taylor and if he'd moved to bantam (as there was speculation he would) he had a young guy named Tony Canzoneri and the formidable Bushy Graham waiting for him. Now given his whirlwind style and that he'd already fought over 100 times he probably didn't have a lot of time left, but boy was there a chance to jump into the top 25 guys ever to lace'm up.

If Willie Pep hadn't been in the plane crash-When he was 24, Pep was 108-1 and featherweight champ, with his only loss to HOF lightweight Sammy Angott. Pep was coming of a knockout over faded ATG Chalky Wright. Five were killed in the crash and it was first thought Pep might not survive. He was told by a doctor he wouldn't walk again. Among his other injuries he broke his back. Six months later Pep returned to the ring. Folks who saw him before and after said he was never quite the same. Not really a surprise. One wonders if he handles Sandy Saddler if there is no plane crash. Other than Saddler there was just no one who, in those years, could really threaten Pep. Is he featherweight king for another 5-6 years? Does he make an even stronger case to be what Carmen Basilio already thinks he is, the GOAT?


If Masoa Obha had been a better driver-Obha was 23 when he ran his Corvette into the back of a truck in Tokyo in 1973. He held 50% of the flyweight crown and had just come off as courageous and gutty a win as you will ever see. Chartchai Chionoi has dropped him so severely in the first round Obha had badly sprained his ankle. But Obha got up and hobbled after Chionoi until he got him in the twelfth. In those days beltholders didn't avoid one another, they matched up to see who was the man So we would have seen a fight with Erbito Salavarria that I think Obha wins. Had he beaten the Filipino it would have been time to invade the west. At this time the flyweights were loaded. A rematch with the huge punching Venezuealan Betulio Gonzales, the legendary Mexican Migeul Canto, a rematch with the Swiss Fritz Chervet and in between he could have fought Thai Venice Bhorkasor and then his countryman Shoji Oguma. The flyweights were all over the world in those days.

If Tony Ayala had beaten the rape charge-It was likely just a matter of time til he did it and got caught. He's a sicko. But had he kept it together for even 18 months we might really have seen some matchups. It is the end of 1982 and Torito has crushed#5 ranked Carlos Herrera in three. Who is at 154 at this time? How about Tommy Hearns. Anybody like to have seen a bigger Duran take on the Hitman? Or for the bull and matador how about the still formidable Wilfred Benitez? Want to see him against another up and comer? Davey Moore. Or how about Duran himself? Heck by the middle of 1984 that division has names like McCallum and Mugabi making their marks. How good really was Tony Ayala Junior? We sure would have found out.


If Sal Sanchez hadn't made a booty call-Here are the available names at feather in 1983. Eusabio Pedroza, Rocky Lockridge, Bernard Taylor in addition to possible rematches with Azumah, Juan LaPorte and Bazooka Gomez. By 1984 Barry McGuigan is around and up at 130 are men like Roger Mayweather, Hector Camacho and some kid named Chavez. I think he would have been favored in each of those fights. There is a path there for Sanchez to become the greatest Mexican of them all.

Those are some of mine. Have at it!

If Mike Tyson doesnt invite a Beauty Queen to his Hotel Room

If Joe Frazier doesnt get thumbed in sparring and go blind in 1 eye

If Larry Holmes gets the 1st decision vs Spinks

If Leon had said screw fighting Ali rematch Im keeping my belt

If Riddick Bowe wasnt a fat ass

If Tommy Morrisson doesnt bang an HIV positive girl

and last but not least

If Pernell Whitaker, Aaron Pryor, and the 1980 Olympic team dont fall in love with cocaine and if

James Toeny trains like the all time great he should have been

Sugar Ray Seales eye holds up

p.s. great thread and list as usual

p.s.s.

Marvin Hagler says fuck you Ray have fun feeling like a dip shit like you did to me

p.s.s.s.

Roberto Duran and Julio Cesar Chavez arent drunks - amazing what they accomplished for their amount of partying

Birdofthad wrote:

If Mike Tyson doesnt invite a Beauty Queen to his Hotel Room

See I think Tyson was largely already done.

Birdofthad wrote:

If Joe Frazier doesnt get thumbed in sparring and go blind in 1 eye

If Larry Holmes gets the 1st decision vs Spinks

If Leon had said screw fighting Ali rematch Im keeping my belt

If Riddick Bowe wasnt a fat ass

If Tommy Morrisson doesnt bang an HIV positive girl

This is about things OUTSIDE the ring. Frazier's durability, like Greb's is what it is.

Birdofthad wrote:

Sugar Ray Seales eye holds up

p.s. great thread and list as usual

p.s.s.

Marvin Hagler says fuck you Ray have fun feeling like a dip shit like you did to me

God when I was a youngun I LOVED Ray Seales. Took me a while to warm up to Hagler when he destroyed Ray.

agree marble just mean we would have probably gotten some bigger fights cause i honestly think after prison he knew his timing was fucked and cherry picked even more hardcore than he had already

ya the last Hagler Seales fight was sad

dont think Morrison ever would have amounted to more than WBO straps but guve the guy credit he fought the Foremans and Mercers

some excellent thoughts...especialy on pep which would of been a reality joe gans also and sanchez would of established more of his greatness....on larry holmes its not a question if he wins the first spinks fight for the fight before spinks he clearly lost.carl the truth williams beat him and that night even larry knew that.

what if mickey walker did not drink .took care of himself during his fight years.its amazing what he did acomplish and at times under the influence..

Birdofthad wrote:

If Joe Frazier doesnt get thumbed in sparring and go blind in 1 eye

If Larry Holmes gets the 1st decision vs Spinks

If Leon had said screw fighting Ali rematch Im keeping my belt

If Riddick Bowe wasnt a fat ass

If Tommy Morrisson doesnt bang an HIV positive girl

1. The 1st time around, Holmes lost the fight. It was the 2nd fight where he got ripped off.

2. If Leon had ducked Ali, he would've had to fight Ken Norton for a lesser purse and probably suffered an early knockout.

3. Bowe is a fat ass. However, he was a gifted fighter who should've trained for Lennox Lewis after defeating Holyfield.

4. Morrison was a good fighter but had no chin. See "Ray Mercer vs. Tommy Morrison."

marbleheadmaui wrote:

I am thinking of things that happened outside the ring that really changed the sport inside the ring. In no order.


If Tony Ayala had beaten the rape charge-It was likely just a matter of time til he did it and got caught. He's a sicko. But had he kept it together for even 18 months we might really have seen some matchups. It is the end of 1982 and Torito has crushed#5 ranked Carlos Herrera in three. Who is at 154 at this time? How about Tommy Hearns. Anybody like to have seen a bigger Duran take on the Hitman? Or for the bull and matador how about the still formidable Wilfred Benitez? Want to see him against another up and comer? Davey Moore. Or how about Duran himself? Heck by the middle of 1984 that division has names like McCallum and Mugabi making their marks. How good really was Tony Ayala Junior? We sure would have found out.

Tony Ayala's people, the Duvas, had an opportunity to fight Tommy Hearns in the Jr. Middleweight division. They backed out because in the words of "Bob Arum", "They probably knew Hearns would kill him."

Birdofthad wrote:

If Mike Tyson doesnt invite a Beauty Queen to his Hotel Room

Then Tyson fans have no excuses when he suffers ko's at the hands of Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and Foreman.

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

I am thinking of things that happened outside the ring that really changed the sport inside the ring. In no order.


If Tony Ayala had beaten the rape charge-It was likely just a matter of time til he did it and got caught. He's a sicko. But had he kept it together for even 18 months we might really have seen some matchups. It is the end of 1982 and Torito has crushed#5 ranked Carlos Herrera in three. Who is at 154 at this time? How about Tommy Hearns. Anybody like to have seen a bigger Duran take on the Hitman? Or for the bull and matador how about the still formidable Wilfred Benitez? Want to see him against another up and comer? Davey Moore. Or how about Duran himself? Heck by the middle of 1984 that division has names like McCallum and Mugabi making their marks. How good really was Tony Ayala Junior? We sure would have found out.

Tony Ayala's people, the Duvas, had an opportunity to fight Tommy Hearns in the Jr. Middleweight division. They backed out because in the words of "Bob Arum", "They probably knew Hearns would kill him."

I didn't know that. Thanks!

Birdofthad wrote:

If Mike Tyson doesnt invite a Beauty Queen to his Hotel Room

I think Tyson's what if is what if Cus stayed alive for 5 more years/Don King never got a hold of Tyson. I believe Tyson would have done better for a stretch but was getting ready to crash and burn regardless.

UBeeg9cats wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

If Mike Tyson doesnt invite a Beauty Queen to his Hotel Room

I think Tyson's what if is what if Cus stayed alive for 5 more years/Don King never got a hold of Tyson. I believe Tyson would have done better for a stretch but was getting ready to crash and burn regardless.

gotta agree

its funny yet sad how many what ifs Tysons career had/has

What if Hagler had beaten Leonard? If he got the decision he rightfully deserved or if he makes no tactical error by boxing orthodox for three rounds and stops a fading Leonard in the 9th does not really matter. He was already in preliminary talks with Hearns for a re-match. The plan was for Hagler to fight a Mega-Fight with Hearns and tie Monzons record for title defenses and retire. How much fun would that have been? Here is my opinion. Hearns, having learned from the first fight, would be on his bike from round one. Hagler, older and slower, would have had more trouble catching up. The first three rounds would see Marvin slowly closing the distance and landing almost exclusively to the body. Hearns would be jabbing and snaking that right hand out there on occasion while piling up points. between the 3rd and 4th the petronelli's would be telling Hagler he had to step it up and start doing damage. Marvin would begin to press forward harder and with a little more abandon. He lands a little more, but still not enough to take the round. In the fifth round with 30 seconds left it happens. Hearns, a couple years more accustomed to the wieght, bigger and stronger too, lands a sneaky left hook and a booming right hand on the hard-charging champion and Hagler hits the deck!!!!!!! Up quickly at a count of 3, Hagler waves his glove to his corner in disgust and attempts to convince the referee that he slipped. But he and Hearns both know the truth, he got clocked and dropped. Hearns jumps on Marvin at the end of the 8 count an both guys throw wildley. Hagler takes a step back after a Hearns double hook and a second right hand from Hearns crashes home with authority. Marvin clinches briefly before the bell. The crowd senses the shift and the arena is rockin. The HBO announcers Larry Merchant, Jim Lampley, and Ray Leonard check with Harold Lederman between rounds and confirm thier suspicions. Hagler is behind in the fight (49-44). Almost too far behind to catch-up at this point. Marvin seems uncharacteristically cautious to start the 6th round and Hearns begins to advance behind his piston-like jab. Marvin is giving ground slowly and Hearns is feeding off the crowd who takes up a chant of "Hit-Man, Hit-Man!" as he has another good round. Marvin Sneers between rounds on his stool at the crowd that has turned on him. Petronelli whispers in his ear, "The mob only loves winners Marvin". A visible change comes over Marvin and he leaps off his stool fixing Hearns with a glare right out of the 80's Heydey of Marvelous. The 7th round goes down in the history books as Hagler Hearns 1 part two. Marvin is full steam ahead and Hearns, off his bike again, meets him at ring center and the fight is ON!! Thunderous body shots from Marvin draw a grimace from Hearns and Steward is screaming at Tommy to "MOVE". Hearns clinches, and nods to Steward at the break. He goes back to his bike but Hagler is charging ahead with wild abandon now. Just like in the 5th round, Hearns rocks back on his trailing foot before suddenly leaping forward with a monster right hand and Hagler walks right into it! Unlike the 5th round though, Hagler doesnt go down. He doesnt even wobble. This time, Hagler pumps a right upper-hook into Hearns body and lands a crunching over-hand left to the temple of Hearns. Hearns collapses into Marvin and clinches as thier heads come together. When they seperate, Hearns is sporting a 1 inch gash on the right side of his cheek, courtesy of Marvins dome. Marvin continues the attack until the bell as Hearns manfully tries to land something hurtful to get Marvin off. The crowd is roaring so loud both corners have trouble giving insruction to thier men.
Marvin shifts gears unexpectedly in the 8th. Seemingly having Hearns in trouble he suddenly start jabbing and slows his attack. Hearns accepts the rest and retreats, holding without shame everytime Marvin closes the distance. "Marvins getting tired" Leonard remarks to Lampley. "He might be finally running out of gas". "That would be a suprise if, indeed, he is. The indefatiguable Hagler has made a career out of supreme conditioning" Lampley replies. "Marvin seemed a bit tired against you in the 9th round Ray before he was able to close the fight out", "could it be the same thing here? Is he perhaps marshalling his forces?" "Its possible Jim, but its not like Marvin to let anyone off the hook and Tommy looked like he was in trouble at the end of the last round" "Indeed, if ever anyone looked to be a fish on a hook, it was Hearns in that 7th round".
Round 9 begins slowly as both men spend the first minute of the round posturing and looking for position. Marvin finds it first as he steps inside a jab from Hearns and pumps both fists to Hearns body. He draws a warning for a border-line body shot and Marvin glances briefly at referee Frank Cappucino before resuming his attack. It seems obvious that Hagler took a round off to catch a second wind as he steps the pace back up. Hearns lands a solid jab with 15 seconds left and Hagler responds with a furious two-fisted barrage that lands only one punch solidly but still sends Hearns skittering along the ropes as the bell rings.
Round 10 is delayed as Steward is slow leaving the ring and then fiegns difficulty finding Hearns mouthpiece before (intentionally?) dropping it and rinsing it. Hagler fumes at the delay and complains to Cappucino to "get on with it". When the referee waves them back together Hearns stuns the crowd and Hagler by attacking with both hands and wild abandon! Hagler steps back and a Hearns right hand crashes into his head. Marvin tries to clinch but Tommy leverages both hands under his chin and pushes him off. Hagler ducks under a right hand but takes a viscious hook to the body! An uppercut from Hearns just misses the Hagler chin and a counter right hook from Hagler drops him to one knee. Hearns grins from one knee at Hagler through the 8 count and then waves him in as he rises. Marvin obliges and the crowd reaches a deafening crescendo as the two men trade bomb for bomb over the next thirty seconds. A right hand from Hearns snaps Marvins head back but the counter overhand left from Marvin crumples Hearns to the canvas for a 10 count. The end comes suddenly just as the crowd begins to chant "Marvelous!". Hagler strides around the ring pumping his arms triumphantly to the rythm of the chant, a smile that seems to large and too out of place on his normally scowling face, beaming to the very top of the arena! After the fight, Marvin announces his retirement. End of the legacy.

Nat Fleischer couldn't have done it better.As the biggest Hagler fan out there I'm not sure a post Mugabi Hagler would have pulled it off.I think Marvin knew after the Leonard fight that he had little left.Watch how bad he was looping his punches against Mugabi.He also walked straight into an uppercut that completely snapped his head back.That would never have happened to an 81 version of Marvin.The funny thing about that uppercut was the fact Mugabi stated years later that when Marvin shook that off he knew he could not win the fight.Hagler has said Mugabi and Hart hit harder than Hearns did. Great post!

Winston(Randy) - It's good to see someone giving credit to what Mugabi took out of Hagler. And Mugabi was moving up from Jr. Middle which no one ever wants to mention.

He was a favorite of mine growing up. The guy doesn't get enough credit for how tough he was.

NBrooks5 wrote:

Winston(Randy) - It's good to see someone giving credit to what Mugabi took out of Hagler. And Mugabi was moving up from Jr. Middle which no one ever wants to mention.

He was a favorite of mine growing up. The guy doesn't get enough credit for how tough he was.

Mugabi gave everything he had in that fight and left his career in there as well.Both fighters pissed blood after the fight and both were never the same afterward.After Hagler got hit with that uppercut at the end of the fourth round you can see him mutter Mother Fucker!Hagler sure had one helluva chin.

WinstonSmith wrote:

NBrooks5 wrote:

Winston(Randy) - It's good to see someone giving credit to what Mugabi took out of Hagler. And Mugabi was moving up from Jr. Middle which no one ever wants to mention.

He was a favorite of mine growing up. The guy doesn't get enough credit for how tough he was.

Mugabi gave everything he had in that fight and left his career in there as well.Both fighters pissed blood after the fight and both were never the same afterward.After Hagler got hit with that uppercut at the end of the fourth round you can see him mutter Mother Fucker!Hagler sure had one helluva chin.

Although I must admit Mugabi was pretty much done after that fight. He was never the same.

Just so you know, Lester has a no hitter going through five in Seattle. They are the worst hitting team in the AL.

Seattle is a great team to get your confidence back.Lester and Clay have been solid all year.

WinstonSmith wrote:

Seattle is a great team to get your confidence back.Lester and Clay have been solid all year.

Foot in mouth disease.