Are scientific boxers ever appreciated in their prime ?

It has been my experience that scientific boxers are not exactly that appreciated in their primes where as power punchers are worshipped whether they deserve it or not. This is just my opinion, however here are some examples. (1) Muhammad Ali: If you read old boxing publications or were old enough to understand what adults were talking about during Ali's reign, it's hard to believe people actually call him the goat now. Any comparison to "Joe Louis" was almost laughable and most people thought he was finished after the 2 Norton fights. The night Ali ko,d Foreman, I recall the announcer screaming "That was no phantom punch!" Before the Foreman fight, a lot of people thought they were watching a clown on his way to an execution who's greatest accomplishment was being on the lucky end of a fixed fight against Sonny Liston. The punch that floored Liston was nicknamed "The Phantom Punch." I think it was the Foreman fight that took most people out of denial where Ali was concerned, however some are still confused. lol :

(2) Mike Tyson: A limited fighter who can barely take a punch, yet a great deal of people were calling him the "GOAT" before he ever became champion. It didn't matter that he was untested, his power was fun and a little scary to watch. For an untrained eye, this is all that matters.

(3) Ray Leonard: For some, there's still a question mark on Ray's career. There are too many cynics to count where this boxer is concerned. During his prime, hardly anyone thought he stood a chance against Tommy Hearns, a freakishly strong power puncher and speed demon. Ask any gym rat about his chances before his fights against Duran and they'd probably laugh. My advice concerning this fighter is the following: Before you listen to anyone about Leonard, look at his fights. You'll see one of the most amazing athletes in the history of sports.

(4) Roberto Duran: Puncher with considerable boxing ability. Received every bit of the credit he was due as a lightweight. Yes, he was probably the greatest lightweight to ever do it and because of his KO power (before the Leonard fight, he was 69 -1 with 55 knockouts) mostly everyone gave him credit for that while he was fighting at lightweight.

(5) Pernell Whitiker: Bored the hell out of people who knew little about the sport. Shocked a lot of people by outclassing Julio Chavez in a glorified sparring session. In one of the most poorly scored fights I ever saw, it was ruled a draw. He had his fan base but they're much louder presently then they were during his hey days as a champion.

(6) George Foreman: Before he fought Ali, I recall a famous poster from one of the big boxing mags (might've been "Ring."). Foreman is in the center of the poster flexing his muscles. There are little pics of Marciano, Louis, Ali and Johnson. The statement was that Foreman was the greatest heavyweight ever. This is stated after his KO's of Frazier and Norton where he showed an exhibition of power most had never seen before.

(7) Manny Pacquiao: The only ATG power puncher in my memory to have a chorus of doubters concerning his deserved status. Maybe his fans are obnoxious? Maybe there's a mystique about the old "All Time Greats" that doesn't allow a fighter in the present day to be mentioned with them? What ever it is, I'm glad I'm able to see now what many will claim they always saw. I've watched them come and go and Manny is one of the most amazing fighters I've ever seen. Worried about the Mayweather - Pacquiao fight not coming off? Calm down. Watching Manny against anyone is still one of the greatest shows on earth.

For the most part, boxers go unappreciated during their primes. The big excpetion is Sugar Ray Robinson however SRR had 110 kos in his career and was too great to be denied. Hindsight awards fighters like "Wilfred Benitez" great honors, though, for the most part, not during their boxing careers. There, you have my early morning thoughts. LOL

nice read frank agree 100% most of these guys didnt get the credit they deserved until they retired from the sport.

No, scientific boxers are not appreciated in their time. People always prefer displays of athleticism over displays of technique, and most people don't know how to measure ability.

They'll see a guy like Pea outclass someone and say, "why isn't this guy fighting?". On the other hand, Tyson knocking a guy senseless for itself. It's hard to see the mental/tactical brilliance of a scientific boxer so there are always questions: Is he strong enough? Is he fast enough? Does he have a chin? What if he fought this guy? What if he fought in a different era? etc. Scientific fighters may eventually answer all of these questions, but they are doubted until they do (even if they retire with a ATG record). It takes great patience to appreciate a scientific fighter, something a casual fan doesn't want in a fight.

Everyone can see world class power or speed. That's why Tyson was so popular. That's why Pacquiao is so popular (Pac's only doubters are Floyd fans). When you become a real fan of the sport you become a fan of or can appreciate a lot of different fighters and their varying styles. People knowledgeable about the sport can recognize ability in its many shapes and forms. But a scientific boxer's ability usually doesn't get public approval until his record stands the test of time.

frank interesting topic ..i agree that the power puncher ala tyson gets big praise from the general public and at times the boxing community itself gets caried away or goes overboard in there apprasil of him untill reality strikes them into seeing what they should of saw long before.george foreman and liston are 2 others in that class..willie pep always got great praise from all during his prime and threwout..ali got plenty of credit by many fans and experts early on but yes there were detracters..with duran -leonard i dont know who you talked with but several great fight fans i went to see the fight with thought ray would beat duran including myself and all of us-10 to be exact were all pulling for duran..ditto tommy hearns and ray.although i was hoping tommy would win i had my doubts soo did everyone i talked with..a toss up was the general thought..ray got more than his share of credit when he was fighting.perhaps more credit than he deserved..a fan favorite cause of the olympic exposure....a fighter with excellent boxing talent does get his just praise during his career.benetiz is one a willie pastrano was another a young hector camacho also...its the big puncher of course or one thats percieved to be a big puncher is the fighter that excites boxing fans..action and a ko..all of us love that.its not that the talented boxer doesnt get high marks..he does.its just the big puncher gets the most enthusiasm ..and at times a overboard enthusiasm..the talent of the boxer though is not ignored at all nor does it go unrecogonized.they in general do not get that adoring enthusiasm by the fans..respect yes.

by the mainstream america? no

by people that know boxing ? yes

1 thing, Pernell could sell the shit outta Virginia

I was there when Whitaker gave Chavez a boxing lesson I would say I was 1 of 100 white people tehre, the place was silent, you could hear the stadium breathe a sigh of relief when the decision was announced, they all knew Whitaker got robbed

I personally love technical boxers, ala I enjoy and support Cory Spinks

Nice post but I think you're off base historically. Joe Gans was called the Old Master when he was only 25 years old, Benny Leonard was THE MAN after WWI who was known for his sublime skills. Willie Pep was a legend in his own time in the 1940's as was Ray Robinson. What has changed over the last 20-25 years is boxing fans have become less and less knowledgeable about what they are watching. Folks today dare describe Roberto Duran as a brawler for God's sake and think Roy Jones was technically proficient. I think the issue today is folks don't have the grounding to differentiate athletic ability from technical skill among other things.

Mike Tyson could take a punch. Buster hit him with some serious shit. Any other fighter would have been toe-tagged.

SlickMoneyXL wrote:

Mike Tyson could take a punch. Buster hit him with some serious shit. Any other fighter would have been toe-tagged.

Gotta give Tyson that. He took some serious beatings and didn't go down easily. Very good chin.

I don't call a good chin standing there and taking punishement without fighting back. When he got hit, he lost his game plan and everything else. He was never able to stay in a fight with the least bit of a challenge. Just because he's on his feet doesn't mean he's in the fight. He doesn't take a man to get his head beat off. Tyson panicked at the sign of competition.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Nice post but I think you're off base historically. Joe Gans was called the Old Master when he was only 25 years old, Benny Leonard was THE MAN after WWI who was known for his sublime skills. Willie Pep was a legend in his own time in the 1940's as was Ray Robinson. What has changed over the last 20-25 years is boxing fans have become less and less knowledgeable about what they are watching. Folks today dare describe Roberto Duran as a brawler for God's sake and think Roy Jones was technically proficient. I think the issue today is folks don't have the grounding to differentiate athletic ability from technical skill among other things.

My point was that people take sensationalism over scientific execution which I believe is true. Your examples are good but I already mentioned Ray Robinson and Pep wasn't mentioned for the reasons you stated. You make good points but I stand behind my choices. By the way, welcome back Marb. How's life treating you?

Folks today dare describe Roberto Duran as a brawler for God's sake and think Roy Jones was technically proficient. I think the issue today is folks don't have the grounding to differentiate athletic ability from technical skill among other things.

That is a perfect statement about alot of boxing fans. Heck, I think alot of boxing trainers have no real clue about the sweet science. You see guys who have reached the top 10 level with huge technical issues.

captainanddew wrote:

Folks today dare describe Roberto Duran as a brawler for God's sake and think Roy Jones was technically proficient. I think the issue today is folks don't have the grounding to differentiate athletic ability from technical skill among other things.

That is a perfect statement about alot of boxing fans. Heck, I think alot of boxing trainers have no real clue about the sweet science. You see guys who have reached the top 10 level with huge technical issues.

Agreed. See Andre Berto.

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Nice post but I think you're off base historically. Joe Gans was called the Old Master when he was only 25 years old, Benny Leonard was THE MAN after WWI who was known for his sublime skills. Willie Pep was a legend in his own time in the 1940's as was Ray Robinson. What has changed over the last 20-25 years is boxing fans have become less and less knowledgeable about what they are watching. Folks today dare describe Roberto Duran as a brawler for God's sake and think Roy Jones was technically proficient. I think the issue today is folks don't have the grounding to differentiate athletic ability from technical skill among other things.

My point was that people take sensationalism over scientific execution which I believe is true. Your examples are good but I already mentioned Ray Robinson and Pep wasn't mentioned for the reasons you stated. You make good points but I stand behind my choices. By the way, welcome back Marb. How's life treating you?

Life is good! I am picking on your title. Are they ever appreciated in their primes? Yuperooni. Do big flashy punchers get more attention? Yup.

Berto is a good example. too bad there must be at least 30 guys ranked in the top 10 of all the divisions that are in as bad a shape technically as him.

And forgeting pure technical issues, I am disconcerted with the inability of guys to learn the fight game. For every Andre Ward who seems to have a good ring IQ, there is 10 guys with good athleticism with no idea about distance, no ability to change things up, etc....

Feinting also seems to be a lost art.

A lot of the younger kids want to be potshot specialists like Roy or Floyd. I see it getting worse and worse every year at the Golden Gloves. Kids are not getting seasoned like they once were.

Go find some Mark Breland/Pernell Whitaker/Spinks/SR Leonard amateur fights and look at today's amateurs. You'll shit your pants when you see the skill level difference.