REVISITING RAY LEONARD

Even with fewer than forty fights probably the second most accomplished fighter, after Roberto Duran, since Muhammad Ali. In only his 13th fight he began fighting ranked guys.

Floyd Mayweather-#5 ranked welter. After a close early fight Leonard drops Floyd twice and stops him in ten.

Randy Schields-ranked #3. This one was fun. Schields was coming off a KO loss to ATG Wilfredo Benitez but he was no pushover. Leonard by decision.

Armando Muniz-The old warhorse is almost forty yet six months before he had gone the distance with HOFer Carlos Palomino and is still ranked #6. Ray beats the hell out of him and he quits after five rounds.

Johnny Gant-The very tall and lanky Gant has won seven in a row and is ranked #4. Not really much of a fight. Leonard TKO8.

Now Angelo Dundee does something fascinating with Ray. He begins having him occasionally fight middleweights. I'll note below the ranked ones when they occur.

Adolfo Viruet-The longtime contender is coming off a decision loss to Roberto Duran and a win over Bruce Curry. It's a good solid fight and the southpaw gets up off the floor to finish the fight. Leonard by decision.

Marcos Geraldo-Yeah he was inconsistent, but when he was on? he was really really good. Good enough to go the distance with Marvin Hagler one year later. The #4 ranked middleweight in the world. Leonard gives up seven pounds and takes him to school.

Tony Chiaverini-The #8 ranked middleweight. He has won nine in a row since losing to Bennie Briscoe. He will win seven more in a row after this before losing to Benitez. Ray destroys another southpaw. TKO4.

Pete Ranzany-#6 ranked welter. Had just knocked off #2 ranked Clyde Gray. No contest. TKO5.


Andy Price-#10 ranked welter. KO1.

So let's see, before Ray ever gets to his first big fight, he is 25-0 and has defeated seven ranked welters and three ranked middles in only 25 fights. How's THA for not too shabby!

Wilfred benitez-ATG, youngest champion in history and a defensive genius. Leonard knocks him down and finishes him just before the final bell. TKO15.

Davey Boy Green-Ranked #8. Brave as they come. Ray lands as crisp and killer a hook in round four as you will ever see. Green never saw it. KO4.

Now after this I think we all know Leonard's career pretty well. The courageous loss to Duran, the glorious rematch, the KO of Hearns and Kalule, the win over Hagler etc.

Here's the thing. In just over 35 fights, Ray defeated four ATG fighters and a total of 20 ranked guys. It is serious business. My own view is he is one of the 15 most accomplsihed guys ever to lace'm up and a handful for any 147 who ever walked.

damn I really did open a can of worms didn't I?

that was a nice look back at my all time fav. thanks.

great read as always, gotta agree that he is in the top 20 All time and one of the best welters, the Chiaverini fight was such an ass kicking its hard to believe,

What did you think of the Benitez stoppage though? thought it was pretty bullshit

Birdofthad wrote:

great read as always, gotta agree that he is in the top 20 All time and one of the best welters, the Chiaverini fight was such an ass kicking its hard to believe,

What did you think of the Benitez stoppage though? thought it was pretty bullshit

Yup. But Ray did a GREAT job persuading the ref he had no choice.

Deezy0814 wrote:

damn I really did open a can of worms didn't I?

Nope. Any chance to talk about Ray Leonard is a blessing.

i agree marb. i think that for sure he has to be top 15.

personally, if a fighter can show his greatness in so little fights, im not taking anything away from him.

well the only reason i say that is because of the debate in the GOAT thread and any arguement i had has either been put in here or stated in the other thread

ya your right about that marble, I remember being a kid mustve been 14 or 15 watching that fihgt for the first time, of course I knew about Leonard and not much about Benitez after seeing how game he was and what a raw deal he got in that fight it made me research him more

upon knowing how great of a defensive fighter Benitez was it was nuts to see Ray doing the things Radar normally was doing. Great fight but the ref blew it IMO

powerpuncher wrote:

i agree marb. i think that for sure he has to be top 15.

personally, if a fighter can show his greatness in so little fights, im not taking anything away from him.

And the only thing I will say in response is what is the greater accomplishment. Doing what Ray did in 35 fights or doing comparable things but having 50 more wins?

Birdofthad wrote:

ya your right about that marble, I remember being a kid mustve been 14 or 15 watching that fihgt for the first time, of course I knew about Leonard and not much about Benitez after seeing how game he was and what a raw deal he got in that fight it made me research him more

upon knowing how great of a defensive fighter Benitez was it was nuts to see Ray doing the things Radar normally was doing. Great fight but the ref blew it IMO

Ray was a master at making the ref and the judges see what he wanted them to see. A true genius in the ring.

your completely right marble a perfect example is that Hagler fight

Ray is bolo punching Hagler and hits Hagler in the nuts, nobody even notices taht all they say was Rays' pizaz and flair

and the first super middle weight titleholder

Canvas wrote:

and the first super middle weight titleholder

Good fight, but what a sham situation that was. Making Lalonde dry out to 168 to defend his 175 title so Ray could get two titles at once.

KrazyHorseBennett wrote:

Canvas wrote:

and the first super middle weight titleholder

Good fight, but what a sham situation that was. Making Lalonde dry out to 168 to defend his 175 title so Ray could get two titles at once.

It was legit. There are no minimum divisional weight limits in pro boxing, only in amateur. As long as you weigh the division maximum or less the title is at stake. I have tried to explain this countless times over at the other place.

Ray had to immediately decide between the two trinkets and vacate one of them. I agree, Lalonde was badly dried out.

Canvas wrote:

KrazyHorseBennett wrote:

Canvas wrote:

and the first super middle weight titleholder

Good fight, but what a sham situation that was. Making Lalonde dry out to 168 to defend his 175 title so Ray could get two titles at once.

It was legit. There are no minimum divisional weight limits in pro boxing, only in amateur. As long as you weigh the division maximum or less the title is at stake. I have tried to explain this countless times over at the other place.

Ray had to immediately decide between the two trinkets and vacate one of them. I agree, Lalonde was badly dried out.

It was a belt grab. Ray and Tommy were both chasing history during that particular era. Just because it was within the rules doesn't mean that it wasn't shady. That's how lawyers stay in business..

its funny that people are trying to say well modern fighters dont fight as much as a reason for Leonards compact career

when SUGAR SHANE MOSLEY has more fights than Leonard

I think people forget what a star Leonard was, he truly got away with more because he was the 1976 golden boy, everybody liked him, and people were looking for a reason to like boxing at a time when Ali was fading, Leonard gave people that chance , he made boxing cool and was a fun fighter to watch

the fact that he was taking out some ATGs and beating top fighters was just a bonus, not many have done as much for the sport as Leonard

i think that sometimes we forget that leonard absolutely destroyed some solid fighters. he didnt just fight nobodies. i have watched most of leonard's fights and you can see how good he is. another thing is that we forget how great certain fighters that he fought were. duran is the greatest lightweight ever(its debatable but top 3 for sure), hearns was known as unstoppable and definitely one of the best WW's ever. i would definitely have him in my top 5. hagler IMO is the best middleweight ever(again arguable but top couple for sure) and leonard beat them all. people can say what they want but its hard to find a fighter that has fought a top 5 fighter ever in 3 separate weight classes.

powerpuncher wrote:

i think that sometimes we forget that leonard absolutely destroyed some solid fighters. he didnt just fight nobodies. i have watched most of leonard's fights and you can see how good he is. another thing is that we forget how great certain fighters that he fought were. duran is the greatest lightweight ever(its debatable but top 3 for sure), hearns was known as unstoppable and definitely one of the best WW's ever. i would definitely have him in my top 5. hagler IMO is the best middleweight ever(again arguable but top couple for sure) and leonard beat them all. people can say what they want but its hard to find a fighter that has fought a top 5 fighter ever in 3 separate weight classes.

The four top of the food chain wins are just extraordinary.

The only guys I can think of who had a similar top four were Langford's wins over middleweight Ketchell, LHW Philly Jack, lightweight Joe Gans and heavy Harry Wills, Ezzard's three wins over Moore, two wins over Burley and Ali's wins over Liston, Foreman and Frazier.

Pretty remarkable company.

Ray could have fought at the highest level in any era.

I hold Floyd in high regard but Ray would have annihilated Floyd Jr, IMO. Ray could easily match a guy like Floyd in the speed department but had power and a real nasty streak when he was finishing guys. That pretty boy shit never fooled me. He got downright nasty at times.

People say about May-SSM "If that was Manny in the second round, Floyd would have been finished."

Maybe, maybe not.

But if it were Ray, Floyd would have been lying unconscious in a pool of his own excrement.

Random Ray Leonard thought.

KrazyHorseBennett wrote:

Ray could have fought at the highest level in any era.

I hold Floyd in high regard but Ray would have annihilated Floyd Jr, IMO. Ray could easily match a guy like Floyd in the speed department but had power and a real nasty streak when he was finishing guys. That pretty boy shit never fooled me. He got downright nasty at times.

People say about May-SSM "If that was Manny in the second round, Floyd would have been finished."

Maybe, maybe not.

But if it were Ray, Floyd would have been lying unconscious in a pool of his own excrement.

Random Ray Leonard thought.

The ONLY question about putting Ray Leonard in the 1920's-1950's is is he durable enough to survive the then required schedule? His eye quit on him in what, his 30th fight?

But if you could airdrop him in for fights here and there? Look OUT!

marbleheadmaui wrote:

KrazyHorseBennett wrote:

Ray could have fought at the highest level in any era.

I hold Floyd in high regard but Ray would have annihilated Floyd Jr, IMO. Ray could easily match a guy like Floyd in the speed department but had power and a real nasty streak when he was finishing guys. That pretty boy shit never fooled me. He got downright nasty at times.

People say about May-SSM "If that was Manny in the second round, Floyd would have been finished."

Maybe, maybe not.

But if it were Ray, Floyd would have been lying unconscious in a pool of his own excrement.

Random Ray Leonard thought.

The ONLY question about putting Ray Leonard in the 1920's-1950's is is he durable enough to survive the then required schedule? His eye quit on him in what, his 30th fight?

But if you could airdrop him in for fights here and there? Look OUT!

Well, and injury like the eye is just one of those things that happens. Randomness of the business.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

KrazyHorseBennett wrote:

Ray could have fought at the highest level in any era.

I hold Floyd in high regard but Ray would have annihilated Floyd Jr, IMO. Ray could easily match a guy like Floyd in the speed department but had power and a real nasty streak when he was finishing guys. That pretty boy shit never fooled me. He got downright nasty at times.

People say about May-SSM "If that was Manny in the second round, Floyd would have been finished."

Maybe, maybe not.

But if it were Ray, Floyd would have been lying unconscious in a pool of his own excrement.

Random Ray Leonard thought.

The ONLY question about putting Ray Leonard in the 1920's-1950's is is he durable enough to survive the then required schedule? His eye quit on him in what, his 30th fight?

But if you could airdrop him in for fights here and there? Look OUT!

exactly, his body would not have stood up in that era, remarkable what he did in his era, but no way he takes taht grind

KrazyHorseBennett wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

KrazyHorseBennett wrote:

Ray could have fought at the highest level in any era.

I hold Floyd in high regard but Ray would have annihilated Floyd Jr, IMO. Ray could easily match a guy like Floyd in the speed department but had power and a real nasty streak when he was finishing guys. That pretty boy shit never fooled me. He got downright nasty at times.

People say about May-SSM "If that was Manny in the second round, Floyd would have been finished."

Maybe, maybe not.

But if it were Ray, Floyd would have been lying unconscious in a pool of his own excrement.

Random Ray Leonard thought.

The ONLY question about putting Ray Leonard in the 1920's-1950's is is he durable enough to survive the then required schedule? His eye quit on him in what, his 30th fight?

But if you could airdrop him in for fights here and there? Look OUT!

Well, and injury like the eye is just one of those things that happens. Randomness of the business.

I don't buy that. Durability counts. It takes a certain constitution to fight 100 fights. Ray didn't have it.

thats why we can only judge people off of their own era. we can never know what would have really happened if they fought in a different era. we can only assume. if SRR fought in this era and only had 40 or 50 fights, would people claim that he isnt as great as the fighters of the past because he doesnt have as many fights as they do? we just have to judge on what opportunities they were given and what they did about it.