Excluding Ali and SR Robinson, who is the GOAT?

your spot on dmar

4445Frank wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

Robinson owns Leonard sorry, Ray was at one point 120-1-1 at welter

your never going to convince me that a guy that fought 40 pro fights beats Robinson

Duran, Hearns, and Benitez were able to outbox Leonard at times and for long stretchs, no way he beats Robinson

Leonard wasnt even the best welter ever, hows he going to be the best fihgter ever?

First of all, Nobody is going to fight over a hundred fights in the modern day eras. I stated this in another post. Do you know any of the guys Robinson beat? It's about quality not quantity. He beat some good fighters, even HOFs but you don't just look at the record and say that's it. Quote some opponents Bird, and don't go on the net to do it. Duran outslugged Leonard in a great fight. He never outboxed him. Benitez, great as he was, never outboxed Leonard for a long stretch of their fight. Hearns, though he put up a good fight, if truth be told, was running for his life after the 6th and 7th rounds, both of which Leonard won by 10 - 8 scores. He knocked Hearns out of the ring twice in the 13th and should've had a 10-7 in that one, which would have made the fight even going into the 14th. It would not have mattered because Leonard stopped him anyway. By the way, can you name a 6,2 welterweight that Robinson fought that compared to Tommy Hearns? No. I have my issues with Leonard, but nobody owns Leonard at WW. Nobody. He fought according to the level of the game.

You're damned right I do. How about beating HOFers on 23 occassions? Zivic and Angott and Armstrong and LaMotta and Fulmer and Basilio and Turpin and Gavilan for starters. How about beating ranked guys on over 20 more occasions? How about beating guys who never were champs in the days of eight divisions and one belt but defeated HOFers on more than one occasion and won over 50 fights themselves? Guys like Jose Basora and Robert Villemein and California Jackie Wilson and Ralph Zanelli and Marty Servo and Maxie Shapiro and I can go on and on. Robinhson was competitive with HOF middles at an age when Leonard was getting drilled by Terry Norris.

Birdofthad wrote:

Robinson was kicking the shit out of Fullmers, Basillios, and going to war with Joey Maxims while Leonard was getting owned by Camachos and Terry Norris'

Damn Bird, you're three steps ahead of me here!

Birdofthad wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

Deezy0814 wrote:

if this is a bad choice i'll take the criticism but how about Ray Leonard?

personally, i wouldnt say its a bad choice at all but im guessing that people will give you criticism for it. leonard is for sure in my top 10

He just didn't do enough. He beat what 4-5 HOFers? GREAT stuff.

But how does that hold up to guys who beat a dozen or more?

its clear he didnt realize how many HOFers Robinson beat cause he went to the Leonard beat Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler but who did Robinson beat well

Fuller, Basilio, La Motta, Turpin, Gavilan, just to name a few. If you want me to continue I will. We're having a good time here Bird. Don't mess it up by embarassing yourself.

Birdofthad wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Either Greb or Armstrong.

just think marble if Greb doesnt die in 1926 he honestly could have gone down as the greatest. or had a real strong case

even though he was 32 he still had alot left in the tank IMO

Naw, he was done. The surgery he died from would not have let him fight anymore anyway.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

Robinson was kicking the shit out of Fullmers, Basillios, and going to war with Joey Maxims while Leonard was getting owned by Camachos and Terry Norris'

Damn Bird, you're three steps ahead of me here!

Camacho and Norris came when Leonard was waaaayy past him prime. Robinson was opening shows when he was past his. Father time defeats us all. Your Camacho analogy makes you look like an amateur. If you didn't live it, look at it on You tube or something.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Either Greb or Armstrong.

just think marble if Greb doesnt die in 1926 he honestly could have gone down as the greatest. or had a real strong case

even though he was 32 he still had alot left in the tank IMO

Naw, he was done. The surgery he died from would not have let him fight anymore anyway.

good point, I basically meant if the surgery never happened though , but good point

4445Frank wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

Deezy0814 wrote:

if this is a bad choice i'll take the criticism but how about Ray Leonard?

personally, i wouldnt say its a bad choice at all but im guessing that people will give you criticism for it. leonard is for sure in my top 10

He just didn't do enough. He beat what 4-5 HOFers? GREAT stuff.

But how does that hold up to guys who beat a dozen or more?

its clear he didnt realize how many HOFers Robinson beat cause he went to the Leonard beat Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler but who did Robinson beat well

Fuller, Basilio, La Motta, Turpin, Gavilan, just to name a few. If you want me to continue I will. We're having a good time here Bird. Don't mess it up by embarassing yourself.

hahaha how nice of you to name them after we already have and you tried saying Leonards opposition was greater than Robinsons ahhaha

and dont worry still love ya frank I admire your courage

taking the side of Leonard vs Robinson


wooh thats ballsy

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

Ok, I won't argue that Leonard's the GOAT because I'll lose.But here's another point I don't think you guys can deny. Leonard would've been a great opponent for Robinson at welterweight (Not MW). It would've been a great fight and I think Leonard is a good, not certain, pick to win. Not that's not so hard to imagine. Dmar, Bird, what do ya say?

Ray Leonard at 147 is a handful for anybody who ever walked. But can you name a single advantage he'd take into a fight with Robinson?

No. However, Leonard seemed to be as fast as humanly possible. He had great power and Cus stated that he was the best finisher he saw since Joe Louis. Marble, we're talking about a great fight here. Nobody leaves their money in their pockets if Leonard and Robinson are fighting on PPV.

From the limited footage available of Robinson at welter, looks to me like he is noticeably faster. It'd be a GREAT fight. I just can't see Leonard finding a way to win.

The most impressive thing about Leonard is his top of the food chain wins, those four are as good as anyon'e top four who ever walked that I can think of.

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Birdofthad wrote:

Robinson was kicking the shit out of Fullmers, Basillios, and going to war with Joey Maxims while Leonard was getting owned by Camachos and Terry Norris'

Damn Bird, you're three steps ahead of me here!

Camacho and Norris came when Leonard was waaaayy past him prime. Robinson was opening shows when he was past his. Father time defeats us all. Your Camacho analogy makes you look like an amateur. If you didn't live it, look at it on You tube or something.

youve completely missed the base of the argument

Robinson was still beating HOFers when Leonard was getting his ass kicked

and you call us amateurs bwahahhahahahah

look..soo many fighters in the 30s 40s 50s fought a far more toughter schudle than leanord..most had 40-50 fioghts against the best of the best..thats more fights than RL had in his whole career..yes he slipped a little when he fought terry norris not a ton..he met his indian hex in norris who destroyed him..not even close..robinson at that stage of the game beats norris inside the distence..

camacho by the way was also way past his prime when he koed RL.

right as always dmar and marble

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

Ok, I won't argue that Leonard's the GOAT because I'll lose.But here's another point I don't think you guys can deny. Leonard would've been a great opponent for Robinson at welterweight (Not MW). It would've been a great fight and I think Leonard is a good, not certain, pick to win. Not that's not so hard to imagine. Dmar, Bird, what do ya say?

Ray Leonard at 147 is a handful for anybody who ever walked. But can you name a single advantage he'd take into a fight with Robinson?

No. However, Leonard seemed to be as fast as humanly possible. He had great power and Cus stated that he was the best finisher he saw since Joe Louis. Marble, we're talking about a great fight here. Nobody leaves their money in their pockets if Leonard and Robinson are fighting on PPV.

From the limited footage available of Robinson at welter, looks to me like he is noticeably faster. It'd be a GREAT fight. I just can't see Leonard finding a way to win.

The most impressive thing about Leonard is his top of the food chain wins, those four are as good as anyon'e top four who ever walked that I can think of.

Fine. It should've stopped there. My original thesis was that Leonard and Robinson was a good fight based on what I saw of both. There is limited footage of Robinson at WW. I would love to see what ever they had. I once saw him knock a man out with a triple left hook. Threw it to the body, neck and head in lightning fashion. I've also seen Leonard throw punches that I couldn't see. I never stated that he had a more accomplished career than Robinson, however I think it would've been a great fight. I can't see a prime Leonard getting outclassed by anyone at WW. As far as comparing eras is concerned, if we don't stretch our imaginations, it's a lost cause. Jack Johnson vs. Muhammad Ali? Before you talk about that, you have to create the changes that would have occured in Johnson had he been fighting during Ali's time. Either that or try and figure how Ali fights in the bare knuckle days (Johnson wore gloves that might as well been bare knuckles.). By the way, Johnson cleared out a great deal of the Black HWs who were fighting during that time. Men like Sam Lanford and Joe Jeanette, not to mention those that couldn't get the credit they deserved because of the times. Does that make him better than Joe Louis? Muhammad Ali? Marciano? When comparing eras, you take into account the eras and what they demanded of fighters. That's my take.

i cant believe how much hate leonard is getting. yes, robinson is an awesome fighter. yes, he beat great fighters, but nobody is unstoppable! i feel like nobody realizes that. bird and dmar, do you think that anybody would beat robinson? because from the way that you are talking, it seems like you think that he is impossible to beat which is obviously just ignorance.

nobody is saying that leonard is better than robinson or that he would beat him. leonard would give pretty much anybody a tough fight. yes, robinson fought a lot of HOFers, but many of them were past their primes. im not taking anything away from him im just saying that the numbers dont say everything.

just realize that robinson is not unstoppable, nobody is!

sorry for the can of worms

powerpuncher wrote:

i cant believe how much hate leonard is getting. yes, robinson is an awesome fighter. yes, he beat great fighters, but nobody is unstoppable! i feel like nobody realizes that. bird and dmar, do you think that anybody would beat robinson? because from the way that you are talking, it seems like you think that he is impossible to beat which is obviously just ignorance.

nobody is saying that leonard is better than robinson or that he would beat him. leonard would give pretty much anybody a tough fight. yes, robinson fought a lot of HOFers, but many of them were past their primes. im not taking anything away from him im just saying that the numbers dont say everything.

just realize that robinson is not unstoppable, nobody is!

Leonard isnt getting hate

someone said Leonard vs Robinson, we gave the smart opinion its not hate

powerpuncher there is no hatred towards ray L..just facts.both are what i considerd great fighters..one is overated.thats ray leanord sorry.by overated i mean considreing him a top tener.based on what..prey tell give me all the hofamers robinson beat that were past there prime..come on now you made a statement..was it basilio fullmer gavilin turpin lamotta etc that were past there prime..angott.lets see was marty servo past his prime villeman abrrahms artie levine garth panther rocky castelanni..most of thoses i mentioned were fighters that were not hofamers the second batch that is..a lot of them were good enough to be one...do you know who the hell they are..have you ever seen them fight..dont call me ignorant please....one poster claimed gee greb was a middleweight..yep he was..and beat several top heavyweight contenders before they fought dempsey for the title..was not ray a middle also..back then it was very very common for top welters to fight top middles and often..there was no 154 lb division..today fans cry hes to big..do you not.....the names i mentioned are just a few since this topic has named other fighters that robinson fought that were not hofamers..artie levine has a 25 percent of koing ray for the 10 count..castelanni a 35 percent chance of wiping RL..of course billy graham has a 50 percent chance.robby didnt fight him..you have nooo concept who they were how they fought and who they fought yet you call me ignorant..lol..realy..if you realy examine RL career he got wobbled or decked by almost every solid punch he got hit with..resume wise he falls short extra big time against robinson..punch wise boxing wise guts wise in every facet of the game he falls short..hes out of his league here..a great fighter yes..thats it..if he fought the fighters that robinson fought and the same amount and at the same age robby did ray L would of been koed 20 times.forget the rest of the losses..do you want to agrue that also....lets see hofamer zivic was he also washed up when robinson beat him....were other good fighters like dykes belloise garth panther also washed up...and tons of others..without going to boxinbg rec do you know who there are..nope..

dmar5143 wrote:

powerpuncher there is no hatred towards ray L..just facts.both are what i considerd great fighters..one is overated.thats ray leanord sorry.by overated i mean considreing him a top tener.based on what..prey tell give me all the hofamers robinson beat that were past there prime..come on now you made a statement..was it basilio fullmer gavilin turpin lamotta etc that were past there prime..angott.lets see was marty servo past his prime villeman abrrahms artie levine garth panther rocky castelanni..most of thoses i mentioned were fighters that were not hofamers the second batch that is..a lot of them were good enough to be one...do you know who the hell they are..have you ever seen them fight..dont call me ignorant please....one poster claimed gee greb was a middleweight..yep he was..and beat several top heavyweight contenders before they fought dempsey for the title..was not ray a middle also..back then it was very very common for top welters to fight top middles and often..there was no 154 lb division..today fans cry hes to big..do you not.....the names i mentioned are just a few since this topic has named other fighters that robinson fought that were not hofamers..artie levine has a 25 percent of koing ray for the 10 count..castelanni a 35 percent chance of wiping RL..of course billy graham has a 50 percent chance.robby didnt fight him..you have nooo concept who they were how they fought and who they fought yet you call me ignorant..lol..realy..if you realy examine RL career he got wobbled or decked by almost every solid punch he got hit with..resume wise he falls short extra big time against robinson..punch wise boxing wise guts wise in every facet of the game he falls short..hes out of his league here..a great fighter yes..thats it..if he fought the fighters that robinson fought and the same amount and at the same age robby did ray L would of been koed 20 times.forget the rest of the losses..do you want to agrue that also....lets see hofamer zivic was he also washed up when robinson beat him....were other good fighters like dykes belloise garth panther also washed up...and tons of others..without going to boxinbg rec do you know who there are..nope..

man that was a knockout blow

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

Ok, I won't argue that Leonard's the GOAT because I'll lose.But here's another point I don't think you guys can deny. Leonard would've been a great opponent for Robinson at welterweight (Not MW). It would've been a great fight and I think Leonard is a good, not certain, pick to win. Not that's not so hard to imagine. Dmar, Bird, what do ya say?

Ray Leonard at 147 is a handful for anybody who ever walked. But can you name a single advantage he'd take into a fight with Robinson?

No. However, Leonard seemed to be as fast as humanly possible. He had great power and Cus stated that he was the best finisher he saw since Joe Louis. Marble, we're talking about a great fight here. Nobody leaves their money in their pockets if Leonard and Robinson are fighting on PPV.

From the limited footage available of Robinson at welter, looks to me like he is noticeably faster. It'd be a GREAT fight. I just can't see Leonard finding a way to win.

The most impressive thing about Leonard is his top of the food chain wins, those four are as good as anyon'e top four who ever walked that I can think of.

Fine. It should've stopped there. My original thesis was that Leonard and Robinson was a good fight based on what I saw of both. There is limited footage of Robinson at WW. I would love to see what ever they had. I once saw him knock a man out with a triple left hook. Threw it to the body, neck and head in lightning fashion. I've also seen Leonard throw punches that I couldn't see. I never stated that he had a more accomplished career than Robinson, however I think it would've been a great fight. I can't see a prime Leonard getting outclassed by anyone at WW. As far as comparing eras is concerned, if we don't stretch our imaginations, it's a lost cause. Jack Johnson vs. Muhammad Ali? Before you talk about that, you have to create the changes that would have occured in Johnson had he been fighting during Ali's time. Either that or try and figure how Ali fights in the bare knuckle days (Johnson wore gloves that might as well been bare knuckles.). By the way, Johnson cleared out a great deal of the Black HWs who were fighting during that time. Men like Sam Lanford and Joe Jeanette, not to mention those that couldn't get the credit they deserved because of the times. Does that make him better than Joe Louis? Muhammad Ali? Marciano? When comparing eras, you take into account the eras and what they demanded of fighters. That's my take.

Except that Leonard was an exception even in his own era. I mean then you had guys like Arguello fighting 80 times, Hagler fighting 65 times, Saad Muhammad fighting 60 times, Duran fighting 100+ times, Benitez fighting 60 times, Ruben Castillo fighting 80 times, Hearns fighting 65 times and on and on.

Leonard really was the first guy to say I'm only going to fight megafights. I mean he had what? 35 fights??? Now did he move mountains in those 35? Yup. But he also avoided the wear and tear that guys who fought twice as often dealt with.

and he still had a shit load of tear in those 35

powerpuncher wrote:

i cant believe how much hate leonard is getting. yes, robinson is an awesome fighter. yes, he beat great fighters, but nobody is unstoppable! i feel like nobody realizes that. bird and dmar, do you think that anybody would beat robinson? because from the way that you are talking, it seems like you think that he is impossible to beat which is obviously just ignorance.

nobody is saying that leonard is better than robinson or that he would beat him. leonard would give pretty much anybody a tough fight. yes, robinson fought a lot of HOFers, but many of them were past their primes. im not taking anything away from him im just saying that the numbers dont say everything.

just realize that robinson is not unstoppable, nobody is!

Well Ray fought 70 fights at welter and nobody really came close to beating him. Actually of the HOFers Robinson beat only TWO were past their prime, Graziano and Armstrong. The rest were dead in their primes. It really is amazing stuff!

The ONLY welter I can see in the history of the sport who I might favor in a heads up match over Robinson is Tommy Hearns. Ray was accustomed to being the taller, longer and more powerful fighter. In this case he wouldn't be.

Birdofthad wrote:

and he still had a shit load of tear in those 35

Which is why he can't be the GOAT. He physicaly couldn't protect himself well enough to hold up over any kind of long haul.

the big differnce marble is ray can handle hearns punch..tommy could not handle rays..and 15 rounds robinson had fire all 15 hearns dids not..do you think that heatns would not be hit several times by robinmson in several rounds..tommy height wise matches up thats it..and tommy was a all time great..