Excluding Ali and SR Robinson, who is the GOAT?

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:

powerpuncher there is no hatred towards ray L..just facts.both are what i considerd great fighters..one is overated.thats ray leanord sorry.by overated i mean considreing him a top tener.based on what..prey tell give me all the hofamers robinson beat that were past there prime..come on now you made a statement..was it basilio fullmer gavilin turpin lamotta etc that were past there prime..angott.lets see was marty servo past his prime villeman abrrahms artie levine garth panther rocky castelanni..most of thoses i mentioned were fighters that were not hofamers the second batch that is..a lot of them were good enough to be one...do you know who the hell they are..have you ever seen them fight..dont call me ignorant please....one poster claimed gee greb was a middleweight..yep he was..and beat several top heavyweight contenders before they fought dempsey for the title..was not ray a middle also..back then it was very very common for top welters to fight top middles and often..there was no 154 lb division..today fans cry hes to big..do you not.....the names i mentioned are just a few since this topic has named other fighters that robinson fought that were not hofamers..artie levine has a 25 percent of koing ray for the 10 count..castelanni a 35 percent chance of wiping RL..of course billy graham has a 50 percent chance.robby didnt fight him..you have nooo concept who they were how they fought and who they fought yet you call me ignorant..lol..realy..if you realy examine RL career he got wobbled or decked by almost every solid punch he got hit with..resume wise he falls short extra big time against robinson..punch wise boxing wise guts wise in every facet of the game he falls short..hes out of his league here..a great fighter yes..thats it..if he fought the fighters that robinson fought and the same amount and at the same age robby did ray L would of been koed 20 times.forget the rest of the losses..do you want to agrue that also....lets see hofamer zivic was he also washed up when robinson beat him....were other good fighters like dykes belloise garth panther also washed up...and tons of others..without going to boxinbg rec do you know who there are..nope..

for one, its very hard to read your posts because it doesnt have paragraphs and there arent punctuations so sorry if i dont understand certain things you say.

again, i know that SRR beat great fighters. i know that he is definitely one of the best that has ever stepped in the ring. every fighter has flaws though, no matter who you are. robinson had trouble with fighters that would attack him and put a lot of pressure on him. for example, lamotta had the style to come forward and make SRR fight his fight. SRR also said that turpin was just so strong that he had a hard time fighting him and turpin also has the style coming forward and attacking his opponent. gavilan didnt beat SRR but gave him a heck of a fight in their first fight for the same reason. gavilan throws and ton and will attack you relentlessly. although SRR was past his prime, fullmer and basilio were the same. one thing i will say is that SRR won rematches because he was a great adapter.

so im writing this to show that he has flaws, not to show that he isnt great. i know that you know more fighters than i do, but that doesnt necessarily mean that my opinion isnt valid. the reason i was saying that you were ignorant was because i said that it seemed like you didnt think anybody could beat robinson. and i will stand by it if you tell me that there is no WW that could beat him. styles make fights and at least marb has admitted that there are fighters that could beat him. so if you can tell me that you believe that there are some WW that can beat SRR, then i wont think that you are ignorant, but if you wont admit that, then i wont change my mind.

But you have to put those things in context. The Bull gave Ray problems when he had a 15 pound weight advantage. When Ray grew into being a middle? He ANNIHILATED Lamotta. Turpin was a MIDDLEWEIGHT handful when Robinson had been partying his way through Europe for the past six weeks. When Ray had time to train? Again Turpin was tough, but even at 31 with 125 fights under his belt Ray knocked him out.

No welter ever really came close to beating Robinson.

Ray Robinson: "I'm too pretty to fight Charlie Burley." Yes, he was scared of the great fighter from Pittsburgh. Also, let's not forget about "Ralph Tiger Jones" who beat Robinson. I never heard of Jones before or since. It didn't happen at WW, however it happened. Robinson at MW was great, however he fought mostly sluggers aka Basilio, La Matta and Fuller, all of whom were some of the toughest fighters ever but somewhat predictible. Could they have beaten "The Marvelous One?" No. Robinson was great but not unbeatable. Ray Leonard said himself that he wasn't a great fighter, but he fought great. Meaning that he knew he'd never compile the numbers Robinson did, however if they fought, he was confident of a win. I also read some complaints about Leonard's defense. Try fighting Duran (69-1 with 55 kos) Benitez and Tommy Hearns (32-0 with 30 kos and thought to be invincible at the time, all without getting hit. Even Ali never had to fight a HW who was taller and almost as fast as he was. (Note: I hope nobody is taking any of this personally. I'm enjoying the debate. It's a vacation from the horrible Mayweather - Pac Negotiations. I respect the opinions of Dmar and Marble. I like the "Bird" too, but he's hiding behind them.

Tiger Jones was a ranked middleweight who was good enough to defeat HOFer Kid Gavilan as well as Johnny Bratton. That fight was Robinson's second one back after a three year layoff. That's the thing you gotta remember about the middleweight fights after the retirment is he's 35 AND has taken three years off.

The Burley thing is a boxing tragedy.

powerpuncher wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:

powerpuncher on this board there is never any hard feelings..thanks for the reply.

I, on the other hand, think powerpuncher sucks!

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:

powerpuncher there is no hatred towards ray L..just facts.both are what i considerd great fighters..one is overated.thats ray leanord sorry.by overated i mean considreing him a top tener.based on what..prey tell give me all the hofamers robinson beat that were past there prime..come on now you made a statement..was it basilio fullmer gavilin turpin lamotta etc that were past there prime..angott.lets see was marty servo past his prime villeman abrrahms artie levine garth panther rocky castelanni..most of thoses i mentioned were fighters that were not hofamers the second batch that is..a lot of them were good enough to be one...do you know who the hell they are..have you ever seen them fight..dont call me ignorant please....one poster claimed gee greb was a middleweight..yep he was..and beat several top heavyweight contenders before they fought dempsey for the title..was not ray a middle also..back then it was very very common for top welters to fight top middles and often..there was no 154 lb division..today fans cry hes to big..do you not.....the names i mentioned are just a few since this topic has named other fighters that robinson fought that were not hofamers..artie levine has a 25 percent of koing ray for the 10 count..castelanni a 35 percent chance of wiping RL..of course billy graham has a 50 percent chance.robby didnt fight him..you have nooo concept who they were how they fought and who they fought yet you call me ignorant..lol..realy..if you realy examine RL career he got wobbled or decked by almost every solid punch he got hit with..resume wise he falls short extra big time against robinson..punch wise boxing wise guts wise in every facet of the game he falls short..hes out of his league here..a great fighter yes..thats it..if he fought the fighters that robinson fought and the same amount and at the same age robby did ray L would of been koed 20 times.forget the rest of the losses..do you want to agrue that also....lets see hofamer zivic was he also washed up when robinson beat him....were other good fighters like dykes belloise garth panther also washed up...and tons of others..without going to boxinbg rec do you know who there are..nope..

for one, its very hard to read your posts because it doesnt have paragraphs and there arent punctuations so sorry if i dont understand certain things you say.

again, i know that SRR beat great fighters. i know that he is definitely one of the best that has ever stepped in the ring. every fighter has flaws though, no matter who you are. robinson had trouble with fighters that would attack him and put a lot of pressure on him. for example, lamotta had the style to come forward and make SRR fight his fight. SRR also said that turpin was just so strong that he had a hard time fighting him and turpin also has the style coming forward and attacking his opponent. gavilan didnt beat SRR but gave him a heck of a fight in their first fight for the same reason. gavilan throws and ton and will attack you relentlessly. although SRR was past his prime, fullmer and basilio were the same. one thing i will say is that SRR won rematches because he was a great adapter.

so im writing this to show that he has flaws, not to show that he isnt great. i know that you know more fighters than i do, but that doesnt necessarily mean that my opinion isnt valid. the reason i was saying that you were ignorant was because i said that it seemed like you didnt think anybody could beat robinson. and i will stand by it if you tell me that there is no WW that could beat him. styles make fights and at least marb has admitted that there are fighters that could beat him. so if you can tell me that you believe that there are some WW that can beat SRR, then i wont think that you are ignorant, but if you wont admit that, then i wont change my mind.

But you have to put those things in context. The Bull gave Ray problems when he had a 15 pound weight advantage. When Ray grew into being a middle? He ANNIHILATED Lamotta. Turpin was a MIDDLEWEIGHT handful when Robinson had been partying his way through Europe for the past six weeks. When Ray had time to train? Again Turpin was tough, but even at 31 with 125 fights under his belt Ray knocked him out.

No welter ever really came close to beating Robinson.

Ray Robinson: "I'm too pretty to fight Charlie Burley." Yes, he was scared of the great fighter from Pittsburgh. Also, let's not forget about "Ralph Tiger Jones" who beat Robinson. I never heard of Jones before or since. It didn't happen at WW, however it happened. Robinson at MW was great, however he fought mostly sluggers aka Basilio, La Matta and Fuller, all of whom were some of the toughest fighters ever but somewhat predictible. Could they have beaten "The Marvelous One?" No. Robinson was great but not unbeatable. Ray Leonard said himself that he wasn't a great fighter, but he fought great. Meaning that he knew he'd never compile the numbers Robinson did, however if they fought, he was confident of a win. I also read some complaints about Leonard's defense. Try fighting Duran (69-1 with 55 kos) Benitez and Tommy Hearns (32-0 with 30 kos and thought to be invincible at the time, all without getting hit. Even Ali never had to fight a HW who was taller and almost as fast as he was. (Note: I hope nobody is taking any of this personally. I'm enjoying the debate. It's a vacation from the horrible Mayweather - Pac Negotiations. I respect the opinions of Dmar and Marble. I like the "Bird" too, but he's hiding behind them.

Tiger Jones was a ranked middleweight who was good enough to defeat HOFer Kid Gavilan as well as Johnny Bratton. That fight was Robinson's second one back after a three year layoff. That's the thing you gotta remember about the middleweight fights after the retirment is he's 35 AND has taken three years off.

The Burley thing is a boxing tragedy.

So you know Ralph Tiger Jones? Did he beat Gavilan in hisprime? How is it that one guy knows everything. LOL: Unless I go deep into Ali history, I can't lose you.

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:

powerpuncher there is no hatred towards ray L..just facts.both are what i considerd great fighters..one is overated.thats ray leanord sorry.by overated i mean considreing him a top tener.based on what..prey tell give me all the hofamers robinson beat that were past there prime..come on now you made a statement..was it basilio fullmer gavilin turpin lamotta etc that were past there prime..angott.lets see was marty servo past his prime villeman abrrahms artie levine garth panther rocky castelanni..most of thoses i mentioned were fighters that were not hofamers the second batch that is..a lot of them were good enough to be one...do you know who the hell they are..have you ever seen them fight..dont call me ignorant please....one poster claimed gee greb was a middleweight..yep he was..and beat several top heavyweight contenders before they fought dempsey for the title..was not ray a middle also..back then it was very very common for top welters to fight top middles and often..there was no 154 lb division..today fans cry hes to big..do you not.....the names i mentioned are just a few since this topic has named other fighters that robinson fought that were not hofamers..artie levine has a 25 percent of koing ray for the 10 count..castelanni a 35 percent chance of wiping RL..of course billy graham has a 50 percent chance.robby didnt fight him..you have nooo concept who they were how they fought and who they fought yet you call me ignorant..lol..realy..if you realy examine RL career he got wobbled or decked by almost every solid punch he got hit with..resume wise he falls short extra big time against robinson..punch wise boxing wise guts wise in every facet of the game he falls short..hes out of his league here..a great fighter yes..thats it..if he fought the fighters that robinson fought and the same amount and at the same age robby did ray L would of been koed 20 times.forget the rest of the losses..do you want to agrue that also....lets see hofamer zivic was he also washed up when robinson beat him....were other good fighters like dykes belloise garth panther also washed up...and tons of others..without going to boxinbg rec do you know who there are..nope..

for one, its very hard to read your posts because it doesnt have paragraphs and there arent punctuations so sorry if i dont understand certain things you say.

again, i know that SRR beat great fighters. i know that he is definitely one of the best that has ever stepped in the ring. every fighter has flaws though, no matter who you are. robinson had trouble with fighters that would attack him and put a lot of pressure on him. for example, lamotta had the style to come forward and make SRR fight his fight. SRR also said that turpin was just so strong that he had a hard time fighting him and turpin also has the style coming forward and attacking his opponent. gavilan didnt beat SRR but gave him a heck of a fight in their first fight for the same reason. gavilan throws and ton and will attack you relentlessly. although SRR was past his prime, fullmer and basilio were the same. one thing i will say is that SRR won rematches because he was a great adapter.

so im writing this to show that he has flaws, not to show that he isnt great. i know that you know more fighters than i do, but that doesnt necessarily mean that my opinion isnt valid. the reason i was saying that you were ignorant was because i said that it seemed like you didnt think anybody could beat robinson. and i will stand by it if you tell me that there is no WW that could beat him. styles make fights and at least marb has admitted that there are fighters that could beat him. so if you can tell me that you believe that there are some WW that can beat SRR, then i wont think that you are ignorant, but if you wont admit that, then i wont change my mind.

But you have to put those things in context. The Bull gave Ray problems when he had a 15 pound weight advantage. When Ray grew into being a middle? He ANNIHILATED Lamotta. Turpin was a MIDDLEWEIGHT handful when Robinson had been partying his way through Europe for the past six weeks. When Ray had time to train? Again Turpin was tough, but even at 31 with 125 fights under his belt Ray knocked him out.

No welter ever really came close to beating Robinson.

Ray Robinson: "I'm too pretty to fight Charlie Burley." Yes, he was scared of the great fighter from Pittsburgh. Also, let's not forget about "Ralph Tiger Jones" who beat Robinson. I never heard of Jones before or since. It didn't happen at WW, however it happened. Robinson at MW was great, however he fought mostly sluggers aka Basilio, La Matta and Fuller, all of whom were some of the toughest fighters ever but somewhat predictible. Could they have beaten "The Marvelous One?" No. Robinson was great but not unbeatable. Ray Leonard said himself that he wasn't a great fighter, but he fought great. Meaning that he knew he'd never compile the numbers Robinson did, however if they fought, he was confident of a win. I also read some complaints about Leonard's defense. Try fighting Duran (69-1 with 55 kos) Benitez and Tommy Hearns (32-0 with 30 kos and thought to be invincible at the time, all without getting hit. Even Ali never had to fight a HW who was taller and almost as fast as he was. (Note: I hope nobody is taking any of this personally. I'm enjoying the debate. It's a vacation from the horrible Mayweather - Pac Negotiations. I respect the opinions of Dmar and Marble. I like the "Bird" too, but he's hiding behind them.

Tiger Jones was a ranked middleweight who was good enough to defeat HOFer Kid Gavilan as well as Johnny Bratton. That fight was Robinson's second one back after a three year layoff. That's the thing you gotta remember about the middleweight fights after the retirment is he's 35 AND has taken three years off.

The Burley thing is a boxing tragedy.

So you know Ralph Tiger Jones? Did he beat Gavilan in hisprime? How is it that one guy knows everything. LOL: Unless I go deep into Ali history, I can't lose you.

Jones beat Gavilan at middle where the Kid wasn't NEARLY as good. I don't know everything. I just try to limit my conversations to things I have an advantage in

If you watch the Jones fight with Robinson. It ain't close. Jones KILLS him. Coming off five stright losses, all to good fighters, Jones makes Ray look way less than ordinary.

ive seen ralph tiger jones fight at least a dozen times.by the way he also beat hofamer giardello also...jones had a good 50 fights against the best in that era and indeed there were some fantastic fighters back then..jones was known as a spoiler.in thoses days we called them a cutie..a no nonsence fighter who always came foward.terrific chin and a very muscular neck..not a big puncher at all but one that made any top fighter work.he was willing to fight anyone and did..easy to get along with outside the ring..in the ring he was all business..if you were not in good shape against jones you were in trouble..most of the top guys back then beat him but they had to work a bit to do so..there were about 30 guys in the welter and middle division just like jones.a good test and was one of the better tier fighters outside the top ten..made the rankings on and off for about 8-9 years..a solid decent fighter.

dmar5143 wrote:

ive seen ralph tiger jones fight at least a dozen times.by the way he also beat hofamer giardello also...jones had a good 50 fights against the best in that era and indeed there were some fantastic fighters back then..jones was known as a spoiler.in thoses days we called them a cutie..a no nonsence fighter who always came foward.terrific chin and a very muscular neck..not a big puncher at all but one that made any top fighter work.he was willing to fight anyone and did..easy to get along with outside the ring..in the ring he was all business..if you were not in good shape against jones you were in trouble..most of the top guys back then beat him but they had to work a bit to do so..there were about 30 guys in the welter and middle division just like jones.a good test and was one of the better tier fighters outside the top ten..made the rankings on and off for about 8-9 years..a solid decent fighter.

So much for Ralph the Tiger working for my argument. I recall reading that Ray came back and won the MW title after losing to Jones. Joey G ( You guys have me on the spelling of his name. You mentioned him before. I think that's who RR beat after losing to Jones.

nope robinson never beat giardello..joey beat ray when robinson was 40plus a year or more...joeys comment after the fight was..ray must of been one hell of a fighter in his day..

dmar5143 wrote:

nope robinson never beat giardello..joey beat ray when robinson was 40plus a year or more...joeys comment after the fight was..ray must of been one hell of a fighter in his day..

You're right. I was thinking of Carl Bo Bo Olson.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:

powerpuncher on this board there is never any hard feelings..thanks for the reply.

I, on the other hand, think powerpuncher sucks!

thats alright marb. i never liked you anyway

i want to know about jose basora, the fighter that gave robinson his only draw during his welterweight reign. i had to check boxrec for him because i really knew nothing about him. apparently he beat a couple of solid fighters like lamotta and zivic. he only lost to robinson later by a first round KO.

I vote for Ricardo Lopez