Kongo - Buentello

Brock has still never put anyone to sleep. Bas Rutten hits harder then most HWs and could compete at 155. By the way showing Marius as an example Vs some scrub running away from leg kicks is a dumb example. Have you ever taken a leg kick. If you are not used to it the shit will hurt you and throw you off. I would rather let that roid head kick me then let Buakaw who weighs 200 lbs less.

LudoCain wrote:

Your doubting that size often equals power when it comes to throwing a punch? So then it was pure boxing technique that broke Heath Herrings orbital, and not the fact that the guy throwing the punch cuts weight to get to 265lbs and is very strong? I'm not saying technique isn't necessary. But at some point sheer strength can and often does play a pretty sizeable factor when it comes to standing strikes.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/2/27/1329384/mariusz-pudzianowski-vs-tim-sylvia

I rest my case...

Oh yeah ask Marcus Jones how your theory works also.

muayjitsu wrote:

LudoCain wrote:

Your doubting that size often equals power when it comes to throwing a punch? So then it was pure boxing technique that broke Heath Herrings orbital, and not the fact that the guy throwing the punch cuts weight to get to 265lbs and is very strong? I'm not saying technique isn't necessary. But at some point sheer strength can and often does play a pretty sizeable factor when it comes to standing strikes.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/2/27/1329384/mariusz-pudzianowski-vs-tim-sylvia

I rest my case...

Oh yeah ask Marcus Jones how your theory works also.

Jones killed some dude on tuf with some GnP. He hits hard as hell, but his stand up aint so hot.

The example wasn't the leg kicks it was the sloppy ass bullrush that ended the fight at the end. You going to argue that technique did that?

No he didn't put anyone to sleep, he just broke Heath Herrings orbital with one punch, and caused a hemotoma the size of a softball on Mir's forehead in the second fight with one shot as well. The forehead is the thickest portion of the human skull, just because you don't knock someone out by punching them there doesn't mean you didn't hit harder than someone who isn't as big as you. Thats where technique comes in. Technique allows you to place your punches better than someone without enough striking training.

It's still one hell of a punch, it just ain't a heat seeker.

Your going to cite a gross lack of cardio and a repeating factor of someone being very uncomfortable on his feet as a means to say Power is nothing without technique? Give almost(notice I said almost) anyone a clear shot at your temple/jaw and let them cock one back before swinging for the fences while your rushing in with your hands in a non defensive position and I'll be surprised if ANYONE in the fight game is still awake to tell about it immediately after it happens.

You helped prove my point there with the Marcus Jones thing. Matt Mitrione is a reckless brawler of a striker. He caught a guy who was trying to rush in and clinch with a heavy right hand. Not much technique there bud.

So bullrushing shows you have "a hell of a punch"??? And GnP someone and getting a KO shows you have punching power? NO you proved my point. Yes being huge helps just due to physics. But knowing how to put the speed and power behind what your throwing plays more of a factor then just being "huge". Id put money on Melvin Manhoef punching harder then Brock(see Manhoef V Hunt).

Manhoef doesn't hit harder than Brock, he has better technique and more explosive strikes than Brock. There is a difference. Put them on the same monitor and I bet you Brock hits harder simply because he is the bigger man with more muscle mass.

Your still not even addressing the Heath Herring punch which was a standing shot that not only broke the orbital but sent Heath rolling backward(though to his credit he was completing the motion so as to avoid getting rolled and having his back taken immediately). And yes, a single shot from half guard causing a huge lump to form on someone's forehead DOES show someone has punching power. He didn't knee or elbow him in the forehead, he punched him.

Technique isn't a measure of force, it's a means of directing it. But at some point a sheer power makes up for whats lacking in technique. Catch someone flush in the temple with a wild right and chances are they go down. Just because you get the perfect shot in at the right moment to make it work doesn't imply technique at all.

How again does the video not serve as a credit to the lack of technique in Mariusz Pudjianowskis game? He throws leg kicks while dropping his hands, chases the guy around and then misses most of his punches, lands two or three and the guy goes flying. Power won the fight there.

Nobody is arguing that technique is a big part of striking. But strength and brute force are the cornerstone. Thats why there are weight classes to begin with. Because if you threw guys Brocks size in there with the BJ Penns of the world it wouldn't matter how much technique the smaller man had in his striking, he's still going down if he gets caught one time.

I don't understand what you're arguing here muayjitsu.

Would Bas Rutten or Manhoef be more likely to land a clean standing KO than Brock Lesner? Hell yes. Well trained kickboxer vs relatively inexperienced wrestler in crisp standup and liklihood of landing a KO is no comparison, but it's apples and oranges here man.

LudoCain never said bullrushing means anything, he said said that throwing a punch that smashes someone's face in shows they have "a hell of a punch" - and it does. KOing someone with GNP also demonstrates power, although in a different form. It might also show you have the grace of an elephant and the technique of a silverback gorilla, but power is power. Power with technique is more power, but power is still power.

This whole debate is actually pretty dumb. There are plenty of guys who win through strength and plenty who win through technique.

thessy11 wrote:

I don't understand what you're arguing here muayjitsu.

Would Bas Rutten or Manhoef be more likely to land a clean standing KO than Brock Lesner? Hell yes. Well trained kickboxer vs relatively inexperienced wrestler in crisp standup and liklihood of landing a KO is no comparison, but it's apples and oranges here man.

LudoCain never said bullrushing means anything, he said said that throwing a punch that smashes someone's face in shows they have "a hell of a punch" - and it does. KOing someone with GNP also demonstrates power, although in a different form. It might also show you have the grace of an elephant and the technique of a silverback gorilla, but power is power. Power with technique is more power, but power is still power.

This whole debate is actually pretty dumb. There are plenty of guys who win through strength and plenty who win through technique.

Do more fighters win through strength or technique? Seriously answer that.

Only one champ has got by on primarily power right now. The other champs have a complete game.

muayjitsu wrote:

thessy11 wrote:

I don't understand what you're arguing here muayjitsu.

Would Bas Rutten or Manhoef be more likely to land a clean standing KO than Brock Lesner? Hell yes. Well trained kickboxer vs relatively inexperienced wrestler in crisp standup and liklihood of landing a KO is no comparison, but it's apples and oranges here man.

LudoCain never said bullrushing means anything, he said said that throwing a punch that smashes someone's face in shows they have "a hell of a punch" - and it does. KOing someone with GNP also demonstrates power, although in a different form. It might also show you have the grace of an elephant and the technique of a silverback gorilla, but power is power. Power with technique is more power, but power is still power.

This whole debate is actually pretty dumb. There are plenty of guys who win through strength and plenty who win through technique.

Do more fighters win through strength or technique? Seriously answer that.

Fighters who combine the two most effectively win the most fights. Fighters with good technique can win BECAUSE they are fighting opponents of similar size and strength BECAUSE they are in the same divisions which exist BECAUSE size/strength matters. *facepalm*

The current champions are the champions because they combine strength with technique. It's not a coincidence that these very skilled fighers like BJ, GSP, and Anderson Silva also happen to be near the top of their division in size and/or strength and make the biggest cuts.

Strength AND technique both matter, which is why there are weight classes. Which one matters more depends entirely on the matchup. If they are of similar size and strength, of course the guy with better technique will win. It works the same the other way too.