Fireworks

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Yvel isn't a top ten HW and isn't a wrestler, so beating him doesn't answer the real questions.

Farmer is really setting the expectations for JDS astronomically high here. This has gone beyond fanboyism into concerns farmer may be carrying JDS child. Go easy on the koolaid bro, I really think you've had enough.

"He might lose to brock or cain, but he destroys everyone else on earth" Really now? All that based on his fast hands?

Saying he's the 4th or 5th best in the UFC really too fan boyish?

Brock still beats him
Mir probably beats him
Nog is ahead of him but that fight aint happening
Cain is a toss up.

Farmer1906 wrote:

Bigs03 wrote:

Honestly, we haven't seen enough of JDS to really know how good he is. Plenty of HWs would look good against Struve, Mirko is all but retired, and he KO'd Werdum in the first...I think tonight we will find out a lot about how good JDS is.

So if he knock out Yvel then what?

Then we'll know that he's a good striker. If he beats Yvel on the ground then we still won't know a whole lot.

Farmer1906 wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Yvel isn't a top ten HW and isn't a wrestler, so beating him doesn't answer the real questions.

Farmer is really setting the expectations for JDS astronomically high here. This has gone beyond fanboyism into concerns farmer may be carrying JDS child. Go easy on the koolaid bro, I really think you've had enough.

"He might lose to brock or cain, but he destroys everyone else on earth" Really now? All that based on his fast hands?

Saying he's the 4th or 5th best in the UFC really too fan boyish?

Brock still beats him
Mir probably beats him
Nog is ahead of him but that fight aint happening
Cain is a toss up.

I think it is and I think all the fighters you named above beat him. He hasn't even fought a top 10 HW so how can you proclaim him top 5?

Farmer you routinely leave your saliva on his nob and we all see it. Don't deny it.

Bigs03 wrote:

Farmer1906 wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Yvel isn't a top ten HW and isn't a wrestler, so beating him doesn't answer the real questions.

Farmer is really setting the expectations for JDS astronomically high here. This has gone beyond fanboyism into concerns farmer may be carrying JDS child. Go easy on the koolaid bro, I really think you've had enough.

"He might lose to brock or cain, but he destroys everyone else on earth" Really now? All that based on his fast hands?

Saying he's the 4th or 5th best in the UFC really too fan boyish?

Brock still beats him
Mir probably beats him
Nog is ahead of him but that fight aint happening
Cain is a toss up.

I think it is and I think all the fighters you named above beat him. He hasn't even fought a top 10 HW so how can you proclaim him top 5?

Werdum is borderline and a good win showing some real power. Just because you haven't done it doesn't mean you haven't showed the skill to be THAT good.

Just look at Mousasi. Soko & Babalu aren't top 10 LHWs yet Mousasi is in almost everyone's top 5.

JDS hasn't showed close to what Mousasi has shown. Mousasi has years of a rounded skill set in multiple weight classes. JDS has some quick knockouts.

But I see your point. Time will tell.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

JDS hasn't showed close to what Mousasi has shown. Mousasi has years of a rounded skill set in multiple weight classes. JDS has some quick knockouts.

But I see your point. Time will tell.

I agree JDS hasn't shown what Mousasi has. You could also throw in the weak overall HW division makes it easy to think someone like JDS is top 5 in the UFC.

Ya, and this is exactly the reason a guy like Rogers is also legit.

Santos out strikes another striker. His stand up still looks sloppy to me but he gets the job done.

He can hit, that's for sure.

It is time for JDS to fight Mir, Carwin, Cain, or Nog. At the very least Gonzaga or Couture.

redvexx8 wrote:

Santos out strikes another striker. His stand up still looks sloppy to me but he gets the job done.

I think in making Yvel, a pretty good striker, look like a flailing goon, JDS showed very nice skills, not sloppy at all imo.

I'm very much in the wolf camp on this one however. His striking looks excellent but as yet has not shown other aspects of his game. And in this division with the huge guys, and excellent wrestlers I'd be surprised if he ever made it to a title fight let alone win one. But he's still young, Im sure he works on his overall game, even if he has yet to show it, and like Mir could put on the muscle when the time comes.

Ranking him side by side with Rogers seems about right.

Good call capt. Would you take him to beat Rogers though? I think he should be ranked just ahead of Rogers because, while Rogers is a good striker too who has shown brief ground moments against the smaller Fedor, JDS is just too fast for him. He'd do to Rogers what he did here, or worse.


Also, what is with Joe saying JDS doesn't have the muay Thai skills of Yvel? He knee'd the very will out of Mirko. JDS is a pretty rounded striker. Boxing and muay Thai is great.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Good call capt. Would you take him to beat Rogers though? I think he should be ranked just ahead of Rogers because, while Rogers is a good striker too who has shown brief ground moments against the smaller Fedor, JDS is just too fast for him. He'd do to Rogers what he did here, or worse.


Also, what is with Joe saying JDS doesn't have the muay Thai skills of Yvel? He knee'd the very will out of Mirko. JDS is a pretty rounded striker. Boxing and muay Thai is great.

Uh huh!

Plus you have to think the guy trains with the Nog's can't have a bad ground game. I'm not saying he's going to triangle Brock, but at least enough to sweep someone like Cain or use it to get back up to the feet.

Cain is the most effective blanket I may have ever seen. No one sweeps him. He just lays on you, damages your face mercilessly, but somehow can never ever stop you. Fighting Cain is like going to hell. It is horrible torment, but it never ends.


Cain vs JDS is actually an interesting match up for me. I'd be curious to see how Cain's pretty decent kickboxing measures up, and if that didn't work, how JDS ground game measures up. Remember, JDS is only a purple belt in BJJ under Nog, while Cain is a purple belt in "gurilla jujitsu" which is a very Judo influenced style. It's what Kos, Fitch and the AKA guys train in.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Cain is the most effective blanket I may have ever seen. No one sweeps him. He just lays on you, damages your face mercilessly, but somehow can never ever stop you. Fighting Cain is like going to hell. It is horrible torment, but it never ends.


Cain vs JDS is actually an interesting match up for me. I'd be curious to see how Cain's pretty decent kickboxing measures up, and if that didn't work, how JDS ground game measures up. Remember, JDS is only a purple belt in BJJ under Nog, while Cain is a purple belt in "gurilla jujitsu" which is a very Judo influenced style. It's what Kos, Fitch and the AKA guys train in.

But who has Cain faced? O'Brien is too small, but has solid wrestling. Kongo might have the worst ground game in the UFC minus Kimbo. Rothwell wasn't looking to take down Cain either.

I think JDS would clearly beat Cain on the feet. It is just a matter of can JDS keep it there. I don't think he could the entire fight unless JDS finished Cain quick. And then what does JDS bring once it gets there.

Not buying the Kongo ground game deal. He has shown good takedown d in a lot of his fights, and against ADCC regional champs. He is just evidence of my striker theory. O'Brien was a good big ten wrestler. That is a good win too. Rothwell is a vet who has been with Miletich for years. I think those are all super solid wins as far as showing his ground skills.

Rogers isn't even in Dos Santos league bro, my god, Rogers would get beat by Yvel

And don't knock Cain to make a point, that guy is as legit as they come

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Not buying the Kongo ground game deal. He has shown good takedown d in a lot of his fights, and against ADCC regional champs. He is just evidence of my striker theory. O'Brien was a good big ten wrestler. That is a good win too. Rothwell is a vet who has been with Miletich for years. I think those are all super solid wins as far as showing his ground skills.

Wow are you really defending Kongo's ground game to make your point?

Kongo has been taken down by anyone that can wrestle.

Yvel looked overmatched last night, I was very impressed. It still doesn't put JDS in the top 5 yet but it's another step in that direction.

Seriously, though, his ear reminds me of that dude on the Goonies.

Not true, he got taken down by Cain and Heath Herring but he has stuffed a lot of shots in his career. Mustapha Al Turk won the ADCC European title and couldn't hope to get him to the ground.


Kongo however is rooted in kickboxing, and anyone rooted in kickboxing will find it more and more difficult to compete as time moves forward. Dino Striker theory in action.
True strikers will win fights like Kongo nearly did against Cain and like AA had been less and less. Notice AA is fast enough to finish fights he routinely runs into trouble on his back in once it gets back to the feet, but that strategy is nothing to bank on anymore. O'brien had him down, Rothwell had him down, Nelson had him down. Eventually a ground fighter will grind a decision against him or finish him there. Beyond that, the HW division has dudes who hit so hard that even a slower, less technical guy like Rogers can KO you if you make a mistake for a split second. The demise of Mirko is also evidence of this with how the Gonzaga fight went. Gonzaga isn't nearly the striker Mirko is, but the takedown and elbows did the damage, and was able to land a kick hard enough to ruin his career. Randy Couture over Tim Sylvia is another fight that proves this theory.

The theory isn't perfect; by all accounts Josh Barnett should have smashed Mirko, but he got three wins over him, but I think the evidence more and more means true strikers are headed for extinction on the HW division. Not that there won't be knockouts standing, oh don't worry, there will be a lot of those. But fighters originating from kickboxing will find it harder and harder to transition over to MMA in that division as long as big wrestlers and other massive dudes continue to enter the fray.

It is all cyclical though, and after a few years maybe a new generation Pedro Rizzo, Mo Smith, Mirko Crocop style sprawl and brawler will emerge. More than likely it would be a Chuck Liddell type, someone with less than K1 level strikes, but technical enough to out box the big wrestling/black belt dudes and with a wrestling pedigree of his own to go along with the size needed to fend off a 270 pound takedown attempt.

And maybe it is Dos Santos. Blackhouse recognizes this and is bringing in high high level wrestlers to their camps, including Cain in the past. Time will tell.

Yvel isn't very good, but if I saw him in a dark ally, I would promply poop my pants. Scariest looking guy in MMA if you ask me

Did you see the terror in Pedro Rizzo's eyes in their fight?

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Did you see the terror in Pedro Rizzo's eyes in their fight?

His eyes were crossed by the end of that fight. That was a late and brutal stoppage.