Mir vs Cain confirmed.

Bigs03 wrote:

So is there no one else here that even gives Mir a submission artist's chance??? Cause I definitely do.

Only if he stuns Cain first. Which I don't think is very likely.

Mir has proven that he's pretty slick, especially on his back. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

The motherfucker who just ripped Nog's arm off has no chance to sub Cain? Yea.....that is a real opinion from someone actually made mod here.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

The motherfucker who just ripped Nog's arm off has no chance to sub Cain? Yea.....that is a real opinion from someone actually made mod here.

What is he going to pull off a flying armbar? Roll into a leglock like Chonan? How is he going to get Cain down? Also Cain is significantly stronger then Nog. I'll kill 20 babies if he can pull off a kimura on Cain.

Cain is a 5:1 favorite for a reason. Let's be real. There are very few ways Mir can win this fight.

OU wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

The motherfucker who just ripped Nog's arm off has no chance to sub Cain? Yea.....that is a real opinion from someone actually made mod here.

What is he going to pull off a flying armbar? Roll into a leglock like Chonan? How is he going to get Cain down? Also Cain is significantly stronger then Nog. I'll kill 20 babies if he can pull off a kimura on Cain.

Don't kill 20 babies!

Bigs03 wrote:

OU wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

The motherfucker who just ripped Nog's arm off has no chance to sub Cain? Yea.....that is a real opinion from someone actually made mod here.

What is he going to pull off a flying armbar? Roll into a leglock like Chonan? How is he going to get Cain down? Also Cain is significantly stronger then Nog. I'll kill 20 babies if he can pull off a kimura on Cain.

Don't kill 20 babies!

I won't have to. Cause Mir will be taking another nap in the middle of the cage.

Bigs03 wrote:

So is there no one else here that even gives Mir a submission artist's chance??? Cause I definitely do.

I think Mir is very live here. His subs are dangerous, and he does bring a level of danger in the standup as well. I was also never as high on Cain as many. Especially if he doesn't go straight wrestling.

captain organic wrote:

Bigs03 wrote:

So is there no one else here that even gives Mir a submission artist's chance??? Cause I definitely do.

I think Mir is very live here. His subs are dangerous, and he does bring a level of danger in the standup as well. I was also never as high on Cain as many. Especially if he doesn't go straight wrestling.

Most people got way too caught up in Cain's standup, to the point where they thought he could hang with JDS. I was never anywhere near that high on Cain's standup. However he is still a better striker then Mir, who has improved but is still behind Cain in every way when it comes to standup.

I think Mir will have more success against Cain in the standup than you think Sooner. And I disagree, Cain won't be able to push Mir against the cage like Carwin and Brock could. Mir will be bigger and stronger than Cain when they enter the cage. If anyone's getting pushed around, it will be Cain.

Cain does have better hands, though. I think Cain will be making a big mistake if he puts Mir on his back.

Bigs03 wrote:

I think Mir will have more success against Cain in the standup than you think Sooner. And I disagree, Cain won't be able to push Mir against the cage like Carwin and Brock could. Mir will be bigger and stronger than Cain when they enter the cage. If anyone's getting pushed around, it will be Cain.

Cain does have better hands, though. I think Cain will be making a big mistake if he puts Mir on his back.

Is Mir stronger? I know he is more ripped but that doesn't mean that Cain won't be able to push him against the cage. Mir might be able to bench press more but in the clinch who is stronger? I'm not going to assume Mir has the advantage there. We will see though. I just don't see Mir pushing Cain around at any point in the fight. But the bottom line for me is Mir can't get Cain to the ground and Cain is too fast and hits too hard for Mir to survive on the feet. So unless Cain gets sloppy I think he wins easy.

Cain stops Mir. Wouldn't be surprised if it happens early, but it will definitely happen before the 15 is over

Then he gets his belt back from Junior or Reem

bobbitt15 wrote:

Cain stops Mir. Wouldn't be surprised if it happens early, but it will definitely happen before the 15 is over

Then he gets his belt back from Junior or Reem

JDS knocks him silly 9 times out of 10. But he would beat Reem if by some miracle he catches JDS slippin'

No heavyweight in MMA history beats Cain 9/10 times. He'll have his belt back

bobbitt15 wrote:

No heavyweight in MMA history beats Cain 9/10 times. He'll have his belt back

One that can stay on his feet(or get back there), take any punch he has to give and enough power to put him down. Yeah he can.

I agree that Cain should be a big favorite on paper, and I see his hand speed as a serious threat to Mir, who I can't ever make heads or tales of standing. I see Cain as a much better straight puncher. I don't know what it is about AKA but short of the JDS fight, right now they're hot when it comes to MMA striking, especially in the higher weight classes. Cain and Cormier have taken gigantic, tangible steps in individual fights in the last two years. With Mir, there is more of a question. Against a sick Nog and Kongo he was Lou fucking Kang, but against an older career-written-off-calls-for-retirement Nog he was the same dude who got railed on by Brandon Vera.

But Mir is also a fighter I am done selling short. Those who know me know I have classically hated on Frank Mir as a fighter BIG time. Me and LA were arch rivals who would meet discreetly in hotels to have anti-Mir sex like a fundamentalist preacher(LA) and a Cubano tranny fen fen junkie hooker(me). Usually though as soon as I get done underrating over achieving fighters I traditionally diss, who make me look dumb on forums for dissing, they start losing and living up to my previous shitty expectations. Forrest is another. I am always late to the party. But Mir in his last fight proved to me he can sub anyone. He can submit anyone with a split second opening. Cain loves to get in and scramble with guys, his hips are epic, ala vintage Fedor, so he knows he can do shit in scrambles and get away with it, but here is the thing, Mir grabs all his subs in scrambles, as good as anyone in MMA history in this weight class. His first UFC fight he sub'd a BJJ black belt who slipped and left him a half second opening. His last fight he sub'd a BJJ black belt who left a split second opening. Both world renowned BJJ guys and Brazilian nationals. That is space cowboy level shit. So OU's assertion that Mir can't win because he can't get it to the ground doesn't hold as much weight with me. He doesn't need to get it down. If they start wrastlin' around, Cain, who probably think his neck is immune to chokes, because it probably is against most guys, could get left dead faced unconscious before he even realizes Mir has him in trouble.

Like with a lot of HW fights with guys that have high finishing %, there are way too many variables here to make a solid, iron clad call. I like Cain standing in theory, as I said, but both of these guys have performances against similar competition that make them look like K-1 level champs, and other fights that make em look like punching bag n00bz. Mir ruined Kongo, and ruined Nog, but was ruined by Brandon Vera and also by Nog. Cain ruined Nog, but was ruined by Check Kongo and JDS. Both guys got their eggs scrambled last time out too, and what kind of psychological and tactical effects that has on subsequent game planning remains to be seen. Also, Cain hasn't put in a good performance since Brock Lesnar was still champion. He rehabbed his shoulder injury for a year, then got knocked the fuck out before Bruce Buffer had a chance to sit down in his first fight back. Is Cain still the same Cain?


Strength wise - Cain is going to have much better wrestling based core strength, but Mir is the scariest dude in the history of ever when he grabs a hold of some shit. He gets credit for only two breaks popularly, but I believe he broke/tore shit in the Traven, Williams and Abbott fights as well.(I can't confirm this accurately but this is according to Frank[ever so reliable and humble when discussing himself I know] and google'd sherdog threads[yes, when dana said the internet is where pussies live, he was talking sherdog specifically I know] anyway)

Chin - the edge goes to Cain. Mir's chin is crap. Cain's is in theory better, but we've seen him badly wobbled, and then finished early in fights.

Speed - Cain. Easily.

BJJ - Mir. Easily.

Scrambles - Push. Cain should dominate the wrestling aspect, but this could play right into Mir's hands, literally.

Footwork - 1. Like everyone else here who doesn't actually train regularly in striking, I don't know enough about footwork from a technical perspective to really grade these guys at a nuanced level. Footwork is absolutely my least favorite aspect to drill in boxing. 2. They both have had fights where they look great, then fights where they walk right into bombs, so I unno but I wanna lean Cain right now.

Punching power - I think goes to Mir. I could see one punch putting Cain down before one shot putting Mir down. But again, I am unsure of the variables. Opponent's chin matters in punching power too, and we all know Mir's isn't solid. Cain has been a brutal finisher lately but it wasn't long ago that even in spite of his high number of TKO's, he was called pillow hands and shit on the internet. AKA HW's seem to have access to a video-game like ability to upgrade their power. Just look at the snap and speed in punches against both Cormier's and Cains fights against Rothwell, Monson, Constant, Stonjic and then against Bigfoot, Nog, and Lesnar. Am I remembering wrong, or didn't Rogan one time go into the "some guys are born with huge power, and some guys are not, and Cain isn't" type speech before a Cain fight once? I believe so, but next thing I know, Cain is supposedly setting records on punching power testing devices and finishing dudes who Crocop, Sylvia and Carwin couldn't, with ease inside a round. I ain't accusing them of using steroids, I just think they've discovered the secret to translate that core strength they got from wrestling into hand-speed and raw power.


I love this fight. I am rooting for Mir kinda, but I hope it is competitive.

bobbitt15 wrote:

No heavyweight in MMA history beats Cain 9/10 times. He'll have his belt back

This. Cain was coming off a torn rotator cuff remember. Given that, I can't say for sure that a few short seconds in the cage against the best HW striker in the UFC over the last five years, off a year long lay off gives me enough info to declare this an Ortiz-Liddell, Ortiz-Shamrock or Wanderlei-Sakuraba type match up. If Cain murks Mir and looks like himself, and fight JDS while he still looks like himself, and still whoops him horribly. Then sure, I can get with that. Cain never got to implement any of his game or even attempt it. JDS's dominance in a way works against him in this question, but with the fights listed above, the fighters fought long enough and enough times for us to absolutely know nothing they bring to the table would ever work against their opponents. I cannot say this here.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

I agree that Cain should be a big favorite on paper, and I see his hand speed as a serious threat to Mir, who I can't ever make heads or tales of standing. I see Cain as a much better straight puncher. I don't know what it is about AKA but short of the JDS fight, right now they're hot when it comes to MMA striking, especially in the higher weight classes. Cain and Cormier have taken gigantic, tangible steps in individual fights in the last two years. With Mir, there is more of a question. Against a sick Nog and Kongo he was Lou fucking Kang, but against an older career-written-off-calls-for-retirement Nog he was the same dude who got railed on by Brandon Vera.

But Mir is also a fighter I am done selling short. Those who know me know I have classically hated on Frank Mir as a fighter BIG time. Me and LA were arch rivals who would meet discreetly in hotels to have anti-Mir sex like a fundamentalist preacher(LA) and a Cubano tranny fen fen junkie hooker(me). Usually though as soon as I get done underrating over achieving fighters I traditionally diss, who make me look dumb on forums for dissing, they start losing and living up to my previous shitty expectations. Forrest is another. I am always late to the party. But Mir in his last fight proved to me he can sub anyone. He can submit anyone with a split second opening. Cain loves to get in and scramble with guys, his hips are epic, ala vintage Fedor, so he knows he can do shit in scrambles and get away with it, but here is the thing, Mir grabs all his subs in scrambles, as good as anyone in MMA history in this weight class. His first UFC fight he sub'd a BJJ black belt who slipped and left him a half second opening. His last fight he sub'd a BJJ black belt who left a split second opening. Both world renowned BJJ guys and Brazilian nationals. That is space cowboy level shit. So OU's assertion that Mir can't win because he can't get it to the ground doesn't hold as much weight with me. He doesn't need to get it down. If they start wrastlin' around, Cain, who probably think his neck is immune to chokes, because it probably is against most guys, could get left dead faced unconscious before he even realizes Mir has him in trouble.

Like with a lot of HW fights with guys that have high finishing %, there are way too many variables here to make a solid, iron clad call. I like Cain standing in theory, as I said, but both of these guys have performances against similar competition that make them look like K-1 level champs, and other fights that make em look like punching bag n00bz. Mir ruined Kongo, and ruined Nog, but was ruined by Brandon Vera and also by Nog. Cain ruined Nog, but was ruined by Check Kongo and JDS. Both guys got their eggs scrambled last time out too, and what kind of psychological and tactical effects that has on subsequent game planning remains to be seen. Also, Cain hasn't put in a good performance since Brock Lesnar was still champion. He rehabbed his shoulder injury for a year, then got knocked the fuck out before Bruce Buffer had a chance to sit down in his first fight back. Is Cain still the same Cain?


Strength wise - Cain is going to have much better wrestling based core strength, but Mir is the scariest dude in the history of ever when he grabs a hold of some shit. He gets credit for only two breaks popularly, but I believe he broke/tore shit in the Traven, Williams and Abbott fights as well.(I can't confirm this accurately but this is according to Frank[ever so reliable and humble when discussing himself I know] and google'd sherdog threads[yes, when dana said the internet is where pussies live, he was talking sherdog specifically I know] anyway)

Chin - the edge goes to Cain. Mir's chin is crap. Cain's is in theory better, but we've seen him badly wobbled, and then finished early in fights.

Speed - Cain. Easily.

BJJ - Mir. Easily.

Scrambles - Push. Cain should dominate the wrestling aspect, but this could play right into Mir's hands, literally.

Footwork - 1. Like everyone else here who doesn't actually train regularly in striking, I don't know enough about footwork from a technical perspective to really grade these guys at a nuanced level. Footwork is absolutely my least favorite aspect to drill in boxing. 2. They both have had fights where they look great, then fights where they walk right into bombs, so I unno but I wanna lean Cain right now.

Punching power - I think goes to Mir. I could see one punch putting Cain down before one shot putting Mir down. But again, I am unsure of the variables. Opponent's chin matters in punching power too, and we all know Mir's isn't solid. Cain has been a brutal finisher lately but it wasn't long ago that even in spite of his high number of TKO's, he was called pillow hands and shit on the internet. AKA HW's seem to have access to a video-game like ability to upgrade their power. Just look at the snap and speed in punches against both Cormier's and Cains fights against Rothwell, Monson, Constant, Stonjic and then against Bigfoot, Nog, and Lesnar. Am I remembering wrong, or didn't Rogan one time go into the "some guys are born with huge power, and some guys are not, and Cain isn't" type speech before a Cain fight once? I believe so, but next thing I know, Cain is supposedly setting records on punching power testing devices and finishing dudes who Crocop, Sylvia and Carwin couldn't, with ease inside a round. I ain't accusing them of using steroids, I just think they've discovered the secret to translate that core strength they got from wrestling into hand-speed and raw power.


I love this fight. I am rooting for Mir kinda, but I hope it is competitive.

I

LIKE

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Mir has one advantage, submissions.

Cain will eat him up.