Machida's game plan and Shogun's speed.

If you get punched in the head, you head should move, follow me. Where and how hard that punch lands determines damage. If the punch landed flush which it might of it, lacked power to impede or hurt Shogun.

Why does Rua not follow up his solid kick? If you watch the video you see when Machida is rocked back he gets tall throws his hands up in a slap or push. Rua comes down wide and charges low under Machidas hands.

Back to the fence? What does that even matter? That engagement was by the fence right? You make it sound like there disengagement by the fence was some big victory by Machida. It wasn't. That whole encounter could of happened in the center of the octagon and it still wouldn't of mattered. Shogun is the one who shrugs Machida out of it a second later when Machida neutralizes the low move.

GDPofDRC wrote:

If you get punched in the head, you head should move, follow me. Where and how hard that punch lands determines damage. If the punch landed flush which it might of it, lacked power to impede or hurt Shogun.

Why does Rua not follow up his solid kick? If you watch the video you see when Machida is rocked back he gets tall throws his hands up in a slap or push. Rua comes down wide and charges low under Machidas hands.

Back to the fence? What does that even matter? That engagement was by the fence right? You make it sound like there disengagement by the fence was some big victory by Machida. It wasn't. That whole encounter could of happened in the center of the octagon and it still wouldn't of mattered. Shogun is the one who shrugs Machida out of it a second later when Machida neutralizes the low move.

What doe "comes down wide" mean? If it's synomous to flailing, then I agree. If any one looked to be "rocked" in that segment it's rua.

And if you get punched lightly on the head, your head will not move. if there is power in the punch, your head will twist. Rua's head twisted.

Doesn't sound like you want any more explanations. You know what you want to, that's fine.

GDPofDRC wrote:

Doesn't sound like you want any more explanations. You know what you want to, that's fine.

my questions bordered on rhetorical.

captain organic wrote:

chorky777 wrote:

GDPofDRC wrote:

Machida throws/ Shogun kicks. both are aimed good enough. Both are in or near air. Punch moves head like it should, but lacks power to damage, Machida was already hit and moved back from the impact could have something to do with it. Shogun doesn't stop, Machida gets high, shogun keeps moving feet, low. Kick has power to move Machida's core back followed by feet, backpedaling, he gets tall, shogun continues advance low, Machida uses good arms to neutralize engagement near the fence. Shoguns arms afterward?? Not really worth commenting on. Looks like he knows what to do with them when Machida cocks his right like he might throw it. Machida clearly gets hit a lot harder.

Spot on. You can just see the momentum in Machida stopping. His whole body goes backwards after jumping into the kick. To me it was one of the best kicks, out of a lot of damn good kicks, in the fight. The power it would take to stop a 200 lb. man with a kick is something I don't want to feel. If someone asked me, gun to my head, if I wanted to take Machida's punch or Shogun's kick, I'd take the punch for sure.

I don't deny that the kick was good, but why is the left that lands flush on the chin ignored?

And I ask this: If the Lyoto's strike had minimal effect, then why does rua not follow up his solid kick? This is a guy who everyone is giving aggressor points to, and he doesn't follow up a body kick? He instead lunges for a weak clinch attempt and ends the exchange with his back to the fence. Explain.

Rua is clearly shooting for a takedown after the kick. To his credit, Lyoto moved back and to his right avoiding Rua's shot. Shogun wasn't rocked and he did follow up the kick with a takedown attempt.

Fact of the matter is when Shogun is in shape, trains well, combined with his athletisisim, he's gonna be in the game with whoever he fights. The only reason Machida was a heavy favorite was because for Shoguns previous performances in the UFC. Doesn't matter if Machida knows what Shogun is gonna do. He did exactly what I thought he was gonna do, he did the same with Chuck. The new Shogun dosn't go for the crazy tornado kicks like he did in PRIDE. The only way I see a change next time is if Machida gets more aggressive with his strikes, and that just isn't what he does. Shogun has learned to tone it down a notch from when he was in PRIDE.

Bigs03 wrote:

captain organic wrote:

chorky777 wrote:

GDPofDRC wrote:

Machida throws/ Shogun kicks. both are aimed good enough. Both are in or near air. Punch moves head like it should, but lacks power to damage, Machida was already hit and moved back from the impact could have something to do with it. Shogun doesn't stop, Machida gets high, shogun keeps moving feet, low. Kick has power to move Machida's core back followed by feet, backpedaling, he gets tall, shogun continues advance low, Machida uses good arms to neutralize engagement near the fence. Shoguns arms afterward?? Not really worth commenting on. Looks like he knows what to do with them when Machida cocks his right like he might throw it. Machida clearly gets hit a lot harder.

Spot on. You can just see the momentum in Machida stopping. His whole body goes backwards after jumping into the kick. To me it was one of the best kicks, out of a lot of damn good kicks, in the fight. The power it would take to stop a 200 lb. man with a kick is something I don't want to feel. If someone asked me, gun to my head, if I wanted to take Machida's punch or Shogun's kick, I'd take the punch for sure.

I don't deny that the kick was good, but why is the left that lands flush on the chin ignored?

And I ask this: If the Lyoto's strike had minimal effect, then why does rua not follow up his solid kick? This is a guy who everyone is giving aggressor points to, and he doesn't follow up a body kick? He instead lunges for a weak clinch attempt and ends the exchange with his back to the fence. Explain.

Rua is clearly shooting for a takedown after the kick. To his credit, Lyoto moved back and to his right avoiding Rua's shot. Shogun wasn't rocked and he did follow up the kick with a takedown attempt.

Ironically, I think Shogun's kick actually knocked Lyoto in the right direction for Machida to move in order to avoid the shot. Shogun just kicked him too hard.

ohiovol62 wrote:

Fact of the matter is when Shogun is in shape, trains well, combined with his athletisisim, he's gonna be in the game with whoever he fights. The only reason Machida was a heavy favorite was because for Shoguns previous performances in the UFC. Doesn't matter if Machida knows what Shogun is gonna do. He did exactly what I thought he was gonna do, he did the same with Chuck. The new Shogun dosn't go for the crazy tornado kicks like he did in PRIDE. The only way I see a change next time is if Machida gets more aggressive with his strikes, and that just isn't what he does. Shogun has learned to tone it down a notch from when he was in PRIDE.

....

You dont think shogun is going to be way more aggressive in the next fight? I am sure shogun has a lot of faith in letting it go to scorecards now.

GolbeZ wrote:

ohiovol62 wrote:

Fact of the matter is when Shogun is in shape, trains well, combined with his athletisisim, he's gonna be in the game with whoever he fights. The only reason Machida was a heavy favorite was because for Shoguns previous performances in the UFC. Doesn't matter if Machida knows what Shogun is gonna do. He did exactly what I thought he was gonna do, he did the same with Chuck. The new Shogun dosn't go for the crazy tornado kicks like he did in PRIDE. The only way I see a change next time is if Machida gets more aggressive with his strikes, and that just isn't what he does. Shogun has learned to tone it down a notch from when he was in PRIDE.

....

You dont think shogun is going to be way more aggressive in the next fight? I am sure shogun has a lot of faith in letting it go to scorecards now.

I def think he's going to be more agressive but he isn't going to go all "Wandy" on him which is would he would have done a couple years ago. That'll get him hurt.

Bigs03 wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

You really think he'd fall for this the same way again?

I don't think "falling for it" has anything to do with it. That's like saying Jon Fitch, Matt Serra, and BJ Penn all "fell for" GSP's ground n pound. Machida didn't fall for anything, he simply got beat by a better fighter. It was a great fight and who knows, maybe next time Machida catches Shogun with a hard counter and knocks him out. I think if the rematch goes another 5 rounds it's going to be because Shogun is once again outworking Machida with kicks.

Shogun isn't clearly a better fighter imo biggie smalls. He had one solitary tool. low kicks, most of which were also countered with head punches. He did "fall for it" because Shogun's lone weapon is something that can be negated with a better game plan. Not the same issue at all. Shogun's speed isn't an unclimbable mountain of slimey muscular shoulders.

Haven't seen the fight again, but all the gifs show the counters to the head. Head shots should be worth more than body shots. I have less problem with the decision than I did earlier. A lot of people seem to be backing off the initial outrage across the blogsphere.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Bigs03 wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

You really think he'd fall for this the same way again?

I don't think "falling for it" has anything to do with it. That's like saying Jon Fitch, Matt Serra, and BJ Penn all "fell for" GSP's ground n pound. Machida didn't fall for anything, he simply got beat by a better fighter. It was a great fight and who knows, maybe next time Machida catches Shogun with a hard counter and knocks him out. I think if the rematch goes another 5 rounds it's going to be because Shogun is once again outworking Machida with kicks.

Shogun isn't clearly a better fighter imo biggie smalls. He had one solitary tool. low kicks, most of which were also countered with head punches. He did "fall for it" because Shogun's lone weapon is something that can be negated with a better game plan. Not the same issue at all. Shogun's speed isn't an unclimbable mountain of slimey muscular shoulders.

Haven't seen the fight again, but all the gifs show the counters to the head. Head shots should be worth more than body shots. I have less problem with the decision than I did earlier. A lot of people seem to be backing off the initial outrage across the blogsphere.

Ok, well, a few things here. First, most of the kicks Shogun landed were counters, not countered. Second, as you can see with the stats, Shogun landed way more of the kicks than Shogun did punches. Third, nowhere in the unified rules does it say that body shots are worth less than head shots. A clean effective strike is a clean effective strike no matter where it is.

Head shots are more effective though!

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Head shots are more effective though!

Not necessarily.

chorky777 wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Bigs03 wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

You really think he'd fall for this the same way again?

I don't think "falling for it" has anything to do with it. That's like saying Jon Fitch, Matt Serra, and BJ Penn all "fell for" GSP's ground n pound. Machida didn't fall for anything, he simply got beat by a better fighter. It was a great fight and who knows, maybe next time Machida catches Shogun with a hard counter and knocks him out. I think if the rematch goes another 5 rounds it's going to be because Shogun is once again outworking Machida with kicks.

Shogun isn't clearly a better fighter imo biggie smalls. He had one solitary tool. low kicks, most of which were also countered with head punches. He did "fall for it" because Shogun's lone weapon is something that can be negated with a better game plan. Not the same issue at all. Shogun's speed isn't an unclimbable mountain of slimey muscular shoulders.

Haven't seen the fight again, but all the gifs show the counters to the head. Head shots should be worth more than body shots. I have less problem with the decision than I did earlier. A lot of people seem to be backing off the initial outrage across the blogsphere.

Ok, well, a few things here. First, most of the kicks Shogun landed were counters, not countered. Second, as you can see with the stats, Shogun landed way more of the kicks than Shogun did punches. Third, nowhere in the unified rules does it say that body shots are worth less than head shots. A clean effective strike is a clean effective strike no matter where it is.

1) Once again your argument is not supported by your gif. In your gif Lyoto is clearly the one countering. This has been a common theme. Maybe it doesn't mean your argument is weak, but I do have to question the choice of gif.

2)The only stats I saw were apparently counting the knees in the clinch up against the fence as lower body power shots, which imo is rediculous, were they effective? sure. Were they power shots? by no stretch. And they def helped sway the stats.