Best Japanese fighter ever?

killerofchicken wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatsu_Hioki

Mr hatsu hioki should be in the convo as well fellas

Where does he fit in vs guys like Gomi or Sakurai?

OU wrote:

killerofchicken wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatsu_Hioki

Mr hatsu hioki should be in the convo as well fellas

Where does he fit in vs guys like Gomi or Sakurai?

i probably have him ahead of gomi, but for now Saku is at #1

killerofchicken wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatsu_Hioki

Mr hatsu hioki should be in the convo as well fellas

Yes! He and Funaki are wrongfully overlooked in this discussion.

killerofchicken wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatsu_Hioki

Mr hatsu hioki should be in the convo as well fellas

He is, but not art the top yet.

boomer sooner wrote:

killerofchicken wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatsu_Hioki

Mr hatsu hioki should be in the convo as well fellas

Yes! He and Funaki are wrongfully overlooked in this discussion.

Rank these guys then.
Funaki
Sakurai
Gomi
Hioki

GDPofDRC wrote:

killerofchicken wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatsu_Hioki

Mr hatsu hioki should be in the convo as well fellas

He is, but not art the top yet.

yup, as I said, if he comes and sweeps the belt form Aldo i'd consider him up there

Should Hayoto Sakurai get any mention at all in this thread?

OU wrote:

Should Hayoto Sakurai get any mention at all in this thread?

when you look at the guys record it's pretty legit, and his losses have come to either champs or former champs... he should be mentioned but i don't think he's at the top

Sakuraba
Aoki
Gomi
Okami
Funaki
Kawajiri
Sakurai
Misaki
Hioki
Fujii
Yamaguchi
Kondo

boomer sooner wrote:

As for Okami fighting 21-year old Rampage, Vegas would bet on Okami. A seasoned Okami would hold every advantage, and remember Matt Lindland had no problem slamming a prime Rampage so Okami could at the least grapple with the guy at 21. I'm not sure why people are coming to the defense of that Rampage -- he basically treated MMA like pro wrestling. And yes he beat CHuck two years later, but look at how many times he fought between Sak and Chuck [probably ten or so]. The guy developed at breakneck speed in the ring.

u guys all seem to be overlooking the fact that Jackson was always a lhw. he was always a sound wrestler, so those 2 in conjunction may very well neutralize Okami's best weapon. And Im not buying that a seasoned Okami was a better striker then a young rampage, not in the least.

Yeah Saku beat Page, but he did get tossed around the ring for awhile(which imo puts a dent in the idea that Page improved exponentially between here and chuck), but the young page's inexperience was exploited by a master submission fighter. I don't see a seasoned Okami who has one true sub in his career pulling this off.

This fight would not even be made in the UFC because of the different weight classes. Another reason why Saku was so great.

boomer sooner wrote:

bobbitt15 wrote:

KingsOwn19 wrote:

I think Sakuraba is his day could beat todays version of Okami. Obviously the other way around as well because Sakuraba has some really impressive wins in between some real WTF losses in his prime(and Okami is a great fighter and all) but Sakuraba had all the game. You werent going to rag doll a prime Sakuraba and he is a dangerous submission guy as we all know. His striking was not a joke or anything. That would actually be a very good fight. I think people assume Okami would smash because Sakuraba is considered an old school guy(like Ken and Severn old school) and Okami is a modern mixed martial artist but i see Sakuraba in the same light as i see Frank Shamrock. They just got old and beat up...their style and skill set can successfully translate into todays game inside younger bodies.

I think its a close fight, just don't see many weakness of Okami for Sak to take advantage of. Don't like that matchup for him

That is exactly how I would see that fight going down. Yushin doesn't make mistakes and his strength would allow him to control the clinch. Probably has better stand-up too. Okami has an underrated jab. Love Sak, but Okami is better.

As for Okami fighting 21-year old Rampage, Vegas would bet on Okami. A seasoned Okami would hold every advantage, and remember Matt Lindland had no problem slamming a prime Rampage so Okami could at the least grapple with the guy at 21. I'm not sure why people are coming to the defense of that Rampage -- he basically treated MMA like pro wrestling. And yes he beat CHuck two years later, but look at how many times he fought between Sak and Chuck [probably ten or so]. The guy developed at breakneck speed in the ring.

On the same page with me and Kings.

captain organic wrote:

boomer sooner wrote:

As for Okami fighting 21-year old Rampage, Vegas would bet on Okami. A seasoned Okami would hold every advantage, and remember Matt Lindland had no problem slamming a prime Rampage so Okami could at the least grapple with the guy at 21. I'm not sure why people are coming to the defense of that Rampage -- he basically treated MMA like pro wrestling. And yes he beat CHuck two years later, but look at how many times he fought between Sak and Chuck [probably ten or so]. The guy developed at breakneck speed in the ring.

u guys all seem to be overlooking the fact that Jackson was always a lhw. he was always a sound wrestler, so those 2 in conjunction may very well neutralize Okami's best weapon. And Im not buying that a seasoned Okami was a better striker then a young rampage, not in the least.

Yeah Saku beat Page, but he did get tossed around the ring for awhile(which imo puts a dent in the idea that Page improved exponentially between here and chuck), but the young page's inexperience was exploited by a master submission fighter. I don't see a seasoned Okami who has one true sub in his career pulling this off.

This fight would not even be made in the UFC because of the different weight classes. Another reason why Saku was so great.

Again with the sub only...

Okami could easily make 205 BTW, he's known as a huge MW.

OU wrote:

boomer sooner wrote:

killerofchicken wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatsu_Hioki

Mr hatsu hioki should be in the convo as well fellas

Yes! He and Funaki are wrongfully overlooked in this discussion.

Rank these guys then.
Funaki
Sakurai
Gomi
Hioki

Funaki -- beat the BEST guys of his time. Ken and Frank Shamrock, Bas, Guy Mezger...no one else in this conversation [let alone this four-man list] can say the same thing.
Hioki -- still tough to judge, but he's been flawless thus far, except for a questionable decision to Omigawa, but Omigawa's lack of success in the octagon makes me question Hioki a little more.
Gomi -- always suspect to tactical fighters. But at least pounded Mach.
Sakurai -- warrior-style guy, but hasn't had a great win in awhile except for a small Aoki.

My Japanese top ten:

1. Funaki
2. Okami
3. Hioki
4. Gomi
5. Sakuraba
6. Aoki
7. Kawajiri
8. Sakurai
9. Suzuki
10. Fujita

LA wrote:

captain organic wrote:

boomer sooner wrote:

As for Okami fighting 21-year old Rampage, Vegas would bet on Okami. A seasoned Okami would hold every advantage, and remember Matt Lindland had no problem slamming a prime Rampage so Okami could at the least grapple with the guy at 21. I'm not sure why people are coming to the defense of that Rampage -- he basically treated MMA like pro wrestling. And yes he beat CHuck two years later, but look at how many times he fought between Sak and Chuck [probably ten or so]. The guy developed at breakneck speed in the ring.

u guys all seem to be overlooking the fact that Jackson was always a lhw. he was always a sound wrestler, so those 2 in conjunction may very well neutralize Okami's best weapon. And Im not buying that a seasoned Okami was a better striker then a young rampage, not in the least.

Yeah Saku beat Page, but he did get tossed around the ring for awhile(which imo puts a dent in the idea that Page improved exponentially between here and chuck), but the young page's inexperience was exploited by a master submission fighter. I don't see a seasoned Okami who has one true sub in his career pulling this off.

This fight would not even be made in the UFC because of the different weight classes. Another reason why Saku was so great.

Again with the sub only...

Okami could easily make 205 BTW, he's known as a huge MW.

Sub only? reread the first paragraph.

I kept hearing how big a MW Nate was too.

captain organic wrote:

LA wrote:

captain organic wrote:

boomer sooner wrote:

As for Okami fighting 21-year old Rampage, Vegas would bet on Okami. A seasoned Okami would hold every advantage, and remember Matt Lindland had no problem slamming a prime Rampage so Okami could at the least grapple with the guy at 21. I'm not sure why people are coming to the defense of that Rampage -- he basically treated MMA like pro wrestling. And yes he beat CHuck two years later, but look at how many times he fought between Sak and Chuck [probably ten or so]. The guy developed at breakneck speed in the ring.

u guys all seem to be overlooking the fact that Jackson was always a lhw. he was always a sound wrestler, so those 2 in conjunction may very well neutralize Okami's best weapon. And Im not buying that a seasoned Okami was a better striker then a young rampage, not in the least.

Yeah Saku beat Page, but he did get tossed around the ring for awhile(which imo puts a dent in the idea that Page improved exponentially between here and chuck), but the young page's inexperience was exploited by a master submission fighter. I don't see a seasoned Okami who has one true sub in his career pulling this off.

This fight would not even be made in the UFC because of the different weight classes. Another reason why Saku was so great.

Again with the sub only...

Okami could easily make 205 BTW, he's known as a huge MW.

Sub only? reread the first paragraph.

I kept hearing how big a MW Nate was too.

I read it, second paragraph last sentence..., I read into it how I read in to it, that's my take..

And what does hearing Nate was a big MW have to do with anything here? He's not now because he got outwrestled and controlled by two other big MWs? Both Chael and Okami are probably bigger MWs then Nate themselves and are just simply better fighters. And it's not like they're saying oh fuck this guy can make 185? Just more like they're MWs who can comfortably fight at 205, don't ask me how Nate was thinking of making 170. They're all in that Franklin class of MWs who can fight at 205 nicely.

And just quickly looking into it again, Marvin Eastman beat Page by decision in his first ever MMA fight, while Page was fighting his third. Not overly significant in the number of fights at the time, but if a first fight Beastman can dec Page I'm sure Yushin Okami with 30 some pro fights at the top level sure could. And not like 8 wins against pretty much nobodies turned him into a wrecking machine in a year. Also look into the fact that while Page has always been naturally talented, one of the most ever, he was a slimmer Page back then, like if you look at the Okami who fought Anderson the first time vs the Okami now, guys fill out. It's not like at this point I'm gonna sway you here, but really Page back then vs Okami at this point is a very winnable fight for Yushin.

U r rolling with a lot of "he never does but could" premises.

captain organic wrote:

U r rolling with a lot of "he never does but could" premises.

Did I use any at all LOL? 2 pages back I said this Okami could potentially sub a green ass 21 year old Page, it's kind of dumb to act like he couldn't simply because he hasn't subbed many guys in his career, the guy is a Judo black belt....


I think you're thinking like 21 year old Page is the same as the Page we've been watching for years now. Again the best fighter he fought at the time was Mike Pyle, he got decisioned by Marvin the Beastman Eastman fighting his first pro fight; so saying Prime Yushin Okami with 30+ pro fights most of which at the top level couldn't beat Page back then is pretty ridiculous.

LA wrote:

captain organic wrote:

U r rolling with a lot of "he never does but could" premises.

Did I use any at all LOL? 2 pages back I said this Okami could potentially sub a green ass 21 year old Page, it's kind of dumb to act like he couldn't simply because he hasn't subbed many guys in his career, the guy is a Judo black belt....


I think you're thinking like 21 year old Page is the same as the Page we've been watching for years now. Again the best fighter he fought at the time was Mike Pyle, he got decisioned by Marvin the Beastman Eastman fighting his first pro fight; so saying Prime Yushin Okami with 30+ pro fights most of which at the top level couldn't beat Page back then is pretty ridiculous.

LA is right, experience is way more valuable than the 'Page supporters are willing to acknowledge. Okami would be the favorite. 'page was basically Karlos Vemola, probably worse, going into that fight.

People just think Rampage is way better than he actually was at that point is all I'm gathering here

bobbitt15 wrote:

People just think Rampage is way better than he actually was at that point is all I'm gathering here

I still say it is a bad style matchup for Okami. If anything Rampage's wrestling was better back then since h was closer to his peak wrestling days. He was still bigger and stronger at that time then Okami is now. Still had more power then Okami. I think Rampage would stuff the takedowns and control the fight. Not that far fetched.

LA wrote:

captain organic wrote:

U r rolling with a lot of "he never does but could" premises.

Did I use any at all LOL? 2 pages back I said this Okami could potentially sub a green ass 21 year old Page, it's kind of dumb to act like he couldn't simply because he hasn't subbed many guys in his career, the guy is a Judo black belt....


I think you're thinking like 21 year old Page is the same as the Page we've been watching for years now. Again the best fighter he fought at the time was Mike Pyle, he got decisioned by Marvin the Beastman Eastman fighting his first pro fight; so saying Prime Yushin Okami with 30+ pro fights most of which at the top level couldn't beat Page back then is pretty ridiculous.

saying he has good subs and saying he could fight at 205.

And I never said Okami couldn't beat young Page. I just don't think he would.

OU wrote:

bobbitt15 wrote:

People just think Rampage is way better than he actually was at that point is all I'm gathering here

I still say it is a bad style matchup for Okami. If anything Rampage's wrestling was better back then since h was closer to his peak wrestling days. He was still bigger and stronger at that time then Okami is now. Still had more power then Okami. I think Rampage would stuff the takedowns and control the fight. Not that far fetched.

You'd think he'd be a bad matchup for Eastman too fighting his first pro fight...

captain organic wrote:

LA wrote:

captain organic wrote:

U r rolling with a lot of "he never does but could" premises.

Did I use any at all LOL? 2 pages back I said this Okami could potentially sub a green ass 21 year old Page, it's kind of dumb to act like he couldn't simply because he hasn't subbed many guys in his career, the guy is a Judo black belt....


I think you're thinking like 21 year old Page is the same as the Page we've been watching for years now. Again the best fighter he fought at the time was Mike Pyle, he got decisioned by Marvin the Beastman Eastman fighting his first pro fight; so saying Prime Yushin Okami with 30+ pro fights most of which at the top level couldn't beat Page back then is pretty ridiculous.

saying he has good subs and saying he could fight at 205.

And I never said Okami couldn't beat young Page. I just don't think he would.

Bro he's a Judo black belt, come on now... and Yeah he could fight at 205, just like Anderson, Sonnen, Franklin _________insert random big MW probably could as well, not like I'm saying a big MW could fight at HW here. Your whole thing is a big never did it but now he can the thing, best fighter Page fought at that point was Mike Pyle now he's beating a 30 fight top 10er? You get the point.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/8/23/2377549/ufc-134-rio-yushin-okami-anderson-silva-japan

UFC 134: Rio - Yushin Okami Looking to End Japanese Failures in UFC

UFC president Dana White caused a minor stir recently with his comment that Yushin Okami was "the best fighter to ever come out of Japan." While I'd debate the assertion that Okami is the best Japanese fighter ever, if White's point is that Okami is the best fighter to leave Japan and fight in the UFC, it's a point that's impossible to debate. Mostly because Japanese fighters have been awful in the UFC.

While I knew that Japanese fighters were 1-6 in the UFC this year, it still took me by surprise just how bad they have performed over a longer period of time.

Since Zuffa's first event, UFC 30, Japanese mixed martial artists have compiled a 24-46-2 record. That's a 33% win ratio. Okami has gone 10-2 during his UFC run. Remove him and the rest of the field has a 14-44-2 record, dropping them to 23%.

So, with Okami breaking the trend of miserable UFC performance by Japanese fighters we can now wonder if he can also break the trend of losses in title fights.

UFC 29 saw two Japanese fighters come up short as Pat Miletich drubbed Kenichi Yamamoto (winner of the Ultimate Japan 2 tournament) before submitting him in round two. In the main event of the evening Yuki Kondo managed to land an early flying knee that floored champion Tito Ortiz. But Ortiz rolled through, got back on his feet and took Kondo down, blitzing him with ground and pound before neck cranking him for the submission just under two minutes into the fight.

At UFC 30, Caol Uno got the first of his two shots at a UFC title. Jens Pulver was riding high after sleeping John Lewis with a single punch at UFC 28. Pulver would win the first ever UFC lightweight championship (then called the bantamweight title) by keeping the fight standing and getting the better of the stand-up and earning a majority decision.

Uno would earn another shot at the lightweight title at UFC 41, beating Din Thomas in the first round of a tournament for the title which was left vacant when Pulver left the UFC. Standing across from him was the man who beat him in just 11 seconds at UFC 34, B.J. Penn. Penn and Uno would fail to deliver what the UFC wanted, battling to a draw and effectively killing the lightweight division in the promotion for over three years.

One of the greatest fighters in the history of Japan, Hayato Sakurai would come up short in his only UFC fight at UFC 36. Brought in as a challange to newly crowned champion Matt Hughes, Sakurai would be dominated and suffer the second loss in his impressive career.

Despite the rich history and tradition of both mixed and traditional martial arts in Japan, the failures in the UFC are impossible to overlook. Okami has the chance to change that image in a single fight this Saturday night when he faces off with Anderson Silva. A win and he not only becomes the first Japanese UFC champion and continues his legacy of the best of his countrymen to fight in the promotion but also stakes a legitimate claim to being the best ever from his country.

Of course, the good bet is on another UFC failure for a Japanese fighter.