UFC HW Division vs. Strikeforce HW Division:

Which Organization has the stronger HW Division going off their current rosters?

The Rankings by each fighter are based on our rankings, at least top 10 guys

UFC HW's:

Brock Lesnar (2)
Frank Mir (6)
Cain Velasquez (9)
Shane Carwin (7)
Randy Couture (4)
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira(3)
Cheick Kongo
Mirko Cro cop (12)
Gabriel Gonzaga (13)
Junior Dos Santos (11)

You also have a guy like Roy Nelson on TUF and some potential talent that could bring a guy in just like a Brett Rogers

Strikeforce HW's:

Fedor Emelianenko (1)
Brett Rogers (8.)
Alistair Overreem (10)
Fabricio Werdum
Paul Buentello

This is a pointless thread.

Strikeforce has the best HW(Fedor) but UFC has a deeper division. Overeem, Werdum, and Rogers would experience great success in UFC as well. Werdum is better than Don Santos(don't care what happened. Werdum will always be more relevant) and is proven to be better than Gonzaga. Kongo sucks. Even you have said CroCop offers nothing. Carwin is all hype for Brock.

Basically after Brock, Couture, Nog, and Mir. Possibly Cain if he beats Rothwell. That division sucks. Even with those guys. You got 1 guy on the brink of retirement, 1 guy past his prime, 1 guy who is a gatekeeper, and another guy is 4-1.

Fedor is not in UFC. It's time to move on and quit pretending that UFC has some super duper division.

I voted UFC because they put on more HW fights that i would like to watch with the division as a whole. Dos Antos vs. CroCop,etc. A fairly entertaing champion and vets i have a lot of respect for but lets face facts. That whole division only 2 fights make sense for Fedor, and they are mainly hype driven(Brock, old man Couture). Atleast Strikeforce gets a chance to grow out of this. I love my UFC but im no fanboy.

Basically u have Fedor wasting his time in Strikeforce, Rogers is all hype for Fedor, Werdum who looked horrible in his last fight before catching a dumb fighter in a guillotine, Dos Santos knocked him out cold, will always be more relevant fighting in a better Org, Overreem whose hype train has been out of control for a while now, it's time to stop pretending that Strikeforce has any HWs to offer Fedor. See how that works?

So basically u have Fedor and then a couple fighters more questionable then any of the UFC HW's

tolivendiewithLA wrote:

Basically u have Fedor wasting his time in Strikeforce, Rogers is all hype for Fedor, Werdum who looked horrible in his last fight before catching a dumb fighter in a guillotine, Dos Santos knocked him out cold, will always be more relevant fighting in a better Org, Overreem whose hype train has been out of control for a while now, it's time to stop pretending that Strikeforce has any HWs to offer Fedor. See how that works?

So basically u have Fedor and then a couple fighters more questionable then any of the UFC HW's

I think some of the best fights for Fedor are in UFC. Never said they werent. Though it's only one fight and i don't think the guy is all that great, so you could understand why im not so down in the dumps about Fedor being in Strikeforce and not UFC. I think most of these guys mentioned in this thread are all great fighters, from Brock Lesnar to Paul Buentello. However, all those UFC guys you listed outside maybe two, draw the same criticism.

The best fight for Fedor is Josh Barnett. That's outside the UFC and can very much happen with Strikeforce having connections with Dream and M-1. They can make it happen and once the heat on Barnett dies down, i think they'll look to set it up. Then its Brock. Couture. After that, who must we see Fedor fight before Overeem? I think he wrecks the UFC HW division outside of Brock and Nog and Couture. Who wants to see Fedor vs. Nog IV? Overeem is a different fighter. You can talk about his losses all day but in the end, he is still 29 years old and much different fighter than he was. If he's on roids, he's on roids. I doubt he's the only HW in this discussion that does roids.

After that give me a rematch with AA, Mir, Cain(not ready)maybe Carwin before Rogers. AA was looking sharp untill his own mistake cost him. I think he deserves a rematch with Fedor while they still have some miles left on them. Im not on the bury AA wagon yet. I think he is still one of the best fights for Fedor up there. I would actually put him before Overeem and maybe even Couture if i wouldent get flamed for it.

There is a lot of guys i would rather see Fedor fight before Werdum. Dos Santos is not one of them

If all these guys are so great. We'll still be talking about them a year from now when Fedor's contract with M-1 is up and he's a REAL free agent. Not a guy who is under contract to another promotion who is going to look out for their best interests.

My whole point with the UFC hype machine is not that i think their fighters suck, or that Strikeforce has better fighters. It's not that at all. UFC has a decent HW division(easily their weakest though) and yes, i would rather see Fedor fight Brock and Couture over Overeem or Rogers if only to watch Fedor kick Brock's ass and get the Fedor-Couture fight i always wanted to see.

The point of my whole protest against UFC's hyped up division is that people are actling like Fedor hurt his credibility by not going to UFC...but why?

It was not his choice and for good reason. M-1 had about as much control over the situation as UFC would have over GSP if he wanted to go to Strikeforce. It's not happening unless they can benefit huge from it and guess what...M-1 was not in the wrong. They were right to try to get their name all over Fedor in UFC or Strikeforce. HE'S THEIR FIGHTER untill the contract runs out. By discrediting Fedor since Pride. You are burying guys like Arlovski, Barnett, and an in shape Tim Syvia. 2 of those guys are still top HW in MMA and Barnett i still think is the best challenger, he just does not have a machine to tell everybody.

There is not that much in UFC after Brock for Fedor. For me atleast and even i am mainly all in on that fight because of the hype. After that, we are having the same discussion we are now. Is this guy on Fedor's level? Oh he can roll but can he bang with Fedor? He can bang but can he roll with Fedor? why arent there better guys? That's what happens when your far and away the best fighter in the class. If Carwin, Cain, Mir, Couture, Dos Santos, and Kongo were Strikeforce talent with the same accomplishments. Nobody would mind saying that these fights are a waste of fucking time we want to see Fedor fight the best, but guess what? HE IS THE BEST!! He can't fight himself(or can he?). That was a joke but still, whats the point in running down the depth of UFC's division when only one or two is an actual challenger for Fedor. There is about 1 or 2 outside of UFC that are as well, imo.

Since i understand the business side of why Fedor is not in UFC, there is really no reason to be mad about it. If any of us headed M-1 we would be doing the same shit and Fedor is fighting in Strikeforce.

UFC has a lot of really good fighters. Strikeforce has a few really good fighters. Fedor has what, 3 fights with Strikeforce. Rogers, Overeem and potentially Barnett sound like a pretty productive year to me. We'll see who the new flaor of the month over in UFC will be by then. If it's still Brock and he's still beating the same caliber of opponents that Fedor is facing aside from the possibilty that Nog beats Couture...than i might be a little more childish about Fedor not going to UFC....

Free preview ends here. Buy the book at Borders.

UFC by far and it gets better every month. However Strikeforce has enough great match ups too keep Fedor busy. Taking into account they will co-promote with anyone that gives them the chance to put on these fights for Fedor
Fedor/Rogers - Already taking place currently Ranked top ten by most MMA media.
Fedor/Overeem - SF champ and ranked in the top ten by most MMA media.
Fedor/Barnett - Can and probably will happen in Japan still ranked top 5 by all MMA media
Fedor/Werdum - Very capable opponent who's borderline top 10 but not quite
Fedor/Antonio Silva - Top 15 or so very capable opponent
Fedor/Monson - Borderline top 10 definitely top 15

If you ask me at the end of the day if strikeforce can set up the fights with him between Rogers, Overeem and Barnett then overall this was a great decision by Fedor. If he wins those three then He's still #1 in my book for sure. After that though HE NEEDS TO GET IN THE FUCKING UFC. See UFC is making the heavy division of the future as we type. just a little over a year ago the division sucked. Now they have Tons of great fighters both young and old.

Good post combat.

Damn, i forgot all about Big Foot. It's been a year since his suspension...bring him in Strikeforce and have him fight Werdum to see where he's at.

You understand that my post was mocking urs right? I'm gonna leave my full reply for tomorrow, but I'll start u off with this.... You say there's only one good fight for Fedor in the UFC and the guy isn't that great to begin with, but in my other thread about the fighter with the best chance of beating Fedor u picked Machida? Also, Brock whom the board collectively ranked as the current #2 HW in the World is also leading in votes. So some people, whether they like him or hate him, as least won't let they're hate blind them from the realization he's legit.

Who has Overreeem beaten at HW since he lost to Sergei? (MMA)

And by saying good post to Combat, u contradict yourself, you've consistently said in this thread and others, the UFC HW division is hyped, overrated, sucks outside a couple guys who are questionable themselves. And Combat understands that the UFC HW division has now become very good and ever increasingly so, with tons of talent both young and old.

tolivendiewithLA wrote:

You understand that my post was mocking urs right? I'm gonna leave my full reply for tomorrow, but I'll start u off with this.... You say there's only one good fight for Fedor in the UFC and the guy isn't that great to begin with, but in my other thread about the fighter with the best chance of beating Fedor u picked Machida? Also, Brock whom the board collectively ranked as the current #2 HW in the World is also leading in votes. So some people, whether they like him or hate him, as least won't let they're hate blind them from the realization he's legit.

Who has Overreeem beaten at HW since he lost to Sergei? (MMA)

And by saying good post to Combat, u contradict yourself, you've consistently said in this thread and others, the UFC HW division is hyped, overrated, sucks outside a couple guys who are questionable themselves. And Combat understands that the UFC HW division has now become very good and ever increasingly so, with tons of talent both young and old.

1. No, i did not know. I thought we were cool

2. Machida would be a great fight for Fedor, but guess what? it won't ever happen. There is plenty of LHW's in their primes and up and comers in UFC LHW division that Machida won't have to go up in weight classes like Spider. Im strictly talking about their HW division and i think you are beggining to mistake it for me hating on UFC as a whole, when im only giving a fair opinion on the state on the HW division. If Anderson Silva moves up to heavyweight or Machida starts doing fights at HW than it's a unanimous fucking yes that Fedor go to UFC when his M-1/Strikeforce contract is up. I would say stupid shit like "fedor is ducking duh best in duh world" as well if that happened.

3. I like Brock. Just because i don't think he's some kind of unstoppable force after 5 fights does not mean i don't think he's a top 2-3 HW(in the ever changing HW rankings) or that he'll only get better.

4. I never said the division sucked. I said i think it's the weakest in UFC and outside of Brock and Randy the guys i think that can challenge Fedor IN THAT DIVISION are very slim. Nog could possibly still be the 2nd most intriuging matchup for Fedor in UFC depending on how things go down Sat. That says a lot. I don't mean that to bash Nog, i think Nog is great but just pointing out that we seen that twice already. If you think Frank Mir, Cain Velasquez, Shane Carwin, Junior Dos Santos are great challengers for Fedor. I think you are selling Fedor short. Im very high on Cain and think he has a great future, but as of right now...his transistions are some of if not the best in MMA but i would not stick him in a cage with Fedor. His standup looked terrible against Kongo and his GNP was not really that effective. Im not sold on Carwin. Sorry. Guys like Shane Carwin is what im talking about with the HYPE. Who has he beaten to get a fucking title shot? Brock will win, and it will be a total stepdown in competition from Frank Mir...but people will buy in.

5. Combat did make a good post. I was mainly praising the talk about what Fedor can do with Strikeforce/M-1/Dream since thats the only talk that matters over the next year in regards to Fedor. Fedor should win them all, but i think if they can get Barnett and Overeem Fedor has had a great year. No contradiciton at all. Even if i was referring to his future of the HW division talk. Sure, Brock and Cain have great futures, and they are stacked with really good fighters that should put on a lot of great fights over the next year, but there is only 1 or 2 that i think could put Fedor to the test. You have been putting a lot of words in my mouth LA. I never said the division sucked, i just think it's weak in CHALLENGERS for guys like Fedor. . Strikeforce is inferior, no doubt, it's lonely at the top but they will keep him busy over the next year. He would not be in UFC anyways because of his M-1 deal. As of right now, even Brock Lesnar is taking a step down in competiton now that he beat Mir. Im hoping Nog returns to form so the title picture might get interesting again.

Im so burnt out on Fedor/UFC crap. I think it's time to move on untill Fedor is a real free agent. I knew from the start he was not going to UFC for the very reason he did not. His M-1 contract and the fact that UFC does not do co-promotion. Yet, people ignore the obvious awnsers and continue to bitch because there is still a business side to this great sport.

UFC's is clearly better, because it is much deeper.

I agree with KO's point about the UFC heavies being overhyped, but I disagree in saying the division sucks. I think it is one of the deepest and most competitive in the UFC. However it is filled with guys who are either clearly past prime, or guys who have yet to rightfully earn title shots. Still, I see Brock, Carwin, Cain and Dos Santos as a great flock of young(at least to the sport) heavies. I actually like Kongo. Nog, Randy and Cro Cop are all still somewhat relevant legends(although I don't find any a truly worthwile challenge to Fedor, though Randy assuming he beats Nog would at least be a fun fight to think about). And there is still Mir, Gabe(or should I say Turch?) etc.

However the hype portion comes in when people whine like bitches because Fedor went to Strikeforce. Why? Is Overeem any less a wortwhile contendor then Mir? Does Carwin have more quality wins then Werdum. Is Cain a better young fighter then Rogers? One cannot answer these questions definitively(well in the case of the 2nd question the answer is clearly no).

It's not even close, the UFC has WAY more depth. The UFC #10 guy could probably beat Strikeforce's #5 guy and #15 guy could probably take Strikeforce's #6.

I think Antonio Silva is one of the most underrated heavyweights in the world. He is enormous, agile, has good kickboxing, good bjj, and decent wrestling. I would love to see him in the UFC. As for the thread, the UFC clearly has a deeper heavyweight division.

Ithink that currently the UFC is the best and with the next season of TUF, they are just going to get younger and deeper. Which doesn't count the guys who applied for the gig, got turned down, but still got a contract. This is why I think Zuffa will ressurect Pride FC and use it as a proving ground for the future of the UFC. Plus that doesn't include the constant scouring going on with Zuffa through the low level promotions where they will garner more up and coming fighters for themselves.

It wasn't a cool or not thing Kings, just was showing how that original post can go both ways, I don't feel like reading the rest of that now, I'll check it out later.

Kingsown is being to harsh on the newly minted UFC HW division. It's as good now as it's been in years. That said, most MMA fans around here are harsh on Strikeforce's division as well.

The vast majority of names in the UFC division outside of Brock really aren't any more credible than Strikeforce's big three besides Fedor, who is clearly the best. If Fedor destroys the three the UFC offer it's not like there is a giant field of established guys with distinguished track records waiting in the wings.

Maybe i am a little bit harsh on the division, i will admit that i been irked by all the Fedor bashing on the subject.

Let's be clear though, i don't think the UFC HW division sucks. I was talking about contenders for somebody like Fedor, or even right now Brock. I think they are slim. That's what im mainly talking about. Not saying middle of the pack UFC guys like CroCop,Gonzaga, etc are not good fighters or that i don't get up to see matchups like CroCop vs. Dos Antos or Cain vs, Rothwell but im not excited about anybody at the top except for Brock really. Im excited about Cain's future but i think he still has a ways to go and will suffer some setbacks before he truly takes off. The division is much stronger than it was before Brock as far as depth goes, but not exactly in title contenders IMO.

As for Strikeforce. He'll be fighting good guys. Not all the best guys he could be facing but some good fighters, plus he'll be getting some time in a cage against credible oppenents, and the fact that there was no way he was going to UFC as long as his contract with M-1 is valid makes me happy that he did end up in Strikeforce and not anywhere else if he's can;r fight in UFC without co-promotion while his contract with M-1 is going. I think he'll be in UFC by 2011 but right now, im excited about the cards Strikeforce can put on with Fedor and i hope by the end of it Strikeforce is a big deal.

The HW division just isn't as good in total as it used to be. Look who is still around from five years ago, imo it's golden age.

Barnett is shunned in japanese pro-wrestling purgatory, Couture and Nog are singing their career swan songs, Crocop may or may not be a force but he is likely done, Sylvia and AA just took a career tumble after their losses to Fedor, Sergei is done imo as well.

All the old names are gone or soon to be. Only Fedor remains.

I don't comlpetely agree with Wolf (shocker) but I see his point. Where I disagree, is the failure to note all the new Heavies getting into the sport and I see it just improving. Again as I stated before, the UFC with their TUF Heavyweights program and their constant scouting of the smaller promotions we are going to see guys who really do see the entire sport, have the bodies and the talent to give ppl like Brock and fedor fits. Even now, look at Carwin, Cain, Dos Santos, Rogers, and Struve (J/K) who were not even knowns to the casual fan 2 years ago. But as it stands now, with the young up and comers and their vast known veterans, the UFC is going to be the big dog for a while.