Hey Marble remember this?

This is MY list based upon MY criteria, yours may differ, that's why we are here. I will tell you that there needs to be about 60 spots for a top 50 list. I could take out numbers 41-50 and replace them with ten other names and be equally uncomfortable. Within the list I could move many fighters six or seven spots and still be ok with it. But on the whole here is a list I am only mildly dissatisfied with. The kinds of names excluded is simply staggering, Dempsey, Marciano, Hearns, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Dick Tiger, Erik Morales, Bob Foster, Tito, Sandy Saddler, Harold Johnson, Holman Williams, Pascual Perez, Ted Kid Lewis, and a whole series of incredible Asian fighters including Flash Elorde. One thing to consider is that 50 fighters represents the top 20% of the HOF. In other words, 80% of HOF fighters aren't good enough for this list.

One idea you'll see on some names is BW, those are BIG WINS, which means over HOFers(or active no-brainers) or a guy who was THE MAN at some point and still in their prime. Defenses refer only to those made as THE MAN, not a mere strapholder.

50. Aaron Pryor-Not higher because resume really falls off after Arguello and Cervantes. 10 defenses, 3BW.

49. Ricardo Lopez-Not higher because his best wins are just not all-time caliber. Truly a dominant fighter.

48. Roy Jones Junior-Two great wins and then the resume declines significantly. Another dominant fighter. Didn't make himself THE MAN in a way that would have moved him up.

47. Billy Conn-Wins over middle champ, he was light heavy champ, and came oh so close against Joe Louis at heavy. 3 defenses (WWII), 8BW.

46. Bernard Hopkins-7 defenses, only 2 BW, a series of big name wins late in his career. Not done yet. A win over Adamek would really move him.

45. Fighting Harada-Wins over Kingpetch and Jofre are as good as they get. 5 defenses and 4BW.

44. Oscar de La Hoya-I was surprised to put him on this list.

43. Wilfredo Gomez-17 defenses at 122, 3BW. Not nearly as good moving up to 126.

42. Ike Williams-7BW including Gavilan, Beau Jack and Johnny Bratton. Could be higher but the Mob had some control here.

41. Vicente Saldivar-10 defenses and 7 BW at feather.

40. Larry Holmes-Dominant fighter but after Kenny Norton he had no one to prove himself against. 20 defenses.

39. Michael Spinks-ATG top of the food chain wins. His limited number of fights holds him back.

38. Tommy Loughran-LH of the 1920's with wins over Grab, Mickey Walker, Stribling, Baer and Carpentier. 11 BW and six defenses.

37. Mickey Walker-Lower than most have him. 9 BW and 5 defenses at welter before moving up to take on even heavyweights.

36. Salvador Sanchez-9 defenses in only two years as champion, exceptional wins over Gomez, Nelson and Lopez, 4BW. What might have been.

35. Nicolino Locche-Wins over HOFers Cervantes, Joe Brown, Eddie Perkins, draws with Laguna and Ortiz. 4BW ad 5 defenses at 140.

34 Ruben Olivares-5 BW, the memorable set with Chucho Castillo and 5 defenses.

33. Evander Holyfied-13 defenses at both cruiser and heavy, 7 BW. If you think Tyson was still Tyson (I don't), he has a case for being higher.

32. Jimmy McClarnin-Wins over Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri and Lew Ambers. 13 BW. In his last 13 fights he fought ten HOFers and went 8-5.

31. Kid Gavilan-10 BW including Ike Williams, Carmen Basilio, Billy Graham. 7 defenses of 147 before moving up. The only 147 to almost defeat Ray Robinson.

30. Alexis Arguello-12 defenses across two divisions as THE MAN. Wins over HOFer Chacon and Olivares but only 3 BW.

29. Manny Pacquioa-4BW and a total of 7 defenses as THE MAN.

28. Eder Jofre-Surprised he is so low. 7 defenses at BW and arguably the greatest comeback in boxing history to win the Feather crown. Only lost to Harada.

27. Emil Griffith-7BW and 7 defenses at 147. Also champion at 160. Not higher because he had some bad losses.

26. Jack Johnson-4BW, 9 defenses and wins over Langford, Jeffries, and ketchel. Most have him higher.

I will publish the rest of the list late tonight or tomorrow. Like I said, this is an IMPOSSIBLE task. Have at it.

Now we move into a range where fighters have to have been THE MAN for extended periods, beat great fighters at their peaks and didn't lose badly very often. Again, if you disagree within a few spots? I think that is about as close as we can get. If you want to argue that some guys from 35 -26 have a claim on this list? I also won't argue very much. ALL these guys are great great great and I am just trying to make the distinctions more granular. Am I succeeding? Who knows? Here we go

25. Carlos Ortiz-Perhaps PR's greatest. THE MAN at both 135 and 140 with 11 defenses and 8 BW including HOFers Elorde, Ramos, Laguna, Loi and Old Bones Joe Brown.

24. Tony Canzoneri-THE MAN at 126, 135 and 140 with 8 defenses. An incredible 14 BW including HOFers, Kid Berg, Lou Ambers, Jimmy McClarnin and Kid Chocolate. Canzoneri also got a draw for the bantamweight crown. His career actually shares a lot of characteristics with Manny. But Canzoneri did so much more that for the moment I think the argument for Manny in the top 25 stops here.

23. Marvin Hagler-14 defenses over six years including Duran, Hearns, Hamsho and Mugabi. 4 BW.

22. Carlos Monzon-Hagler of the 1970's. 14 defenses, 6BW including Napoles, Benvenuti, Griffith and Valdes. You can switch these two if you like. Won his last 70+ fights.

21. Julio Cesar Chavez-Probably Mexico's greatest. An astounding 19 defenses as THE MAN. 4 BW. Defeated Rosario, Taylor, Camacho.

20. Abe Attell-Featherweight before WWI. 20 defenses over nine years as THE MAN. 7 BW including Geirge Dixon, Kid Herman, Johnny Kilbane.

19. Barney Ross-THE MAN at 135-140 and 147. 14 defenses and 10 BW. Defeated MCClarnin, Canzoneri and Petrolle and despite the qulity he fought, was never stopped. Simply a deserved legend.

18. Gene Tunney-THE MAN at heavy but he didn't stay long. His rep is made on his biggest wins. Two over Dempsey, three over Harry Greb and wins over Tommy Gibbons and Georges Carpentier. 10 BW in total.

17. Bob Fitzsimmons-Boxing's first three division champion when there were only seven divisions. Only 5 BW but they included Jim Corbett, Non-Pareil Jack Dempsey and George Gardner. An incredible top of the food chain resume.

16. Pernell Whittaker-An amazing 19 defenses as THE MAN at 135 and 147. 5BW. Had the Oscar decision gone the other way and the Chavez decision been properly rendered? Look out Roberto Duran.

15. Jose Napoles-Cuba's greatest. After beating top contenders at 135 and 140 but getting no title shot, at 147 he has 14 defenses and 6BW. Defeated HOFers Cokes, Griffith and Perkins.

14. Ray Leonard-His placement is ENTIRELY based upon his biggest fights. Benitez, Duran, Hagler, Hearns and Kalule. Just an extraordinary top of the food chain. I suspect that the further Manny goes that Leonard's place in history is likely to be most affected.

13. Joe Gans-Lightweight from 1900. 17 defenses as THE MAN over seven years, 6BW and it was tuberculosis which drained him and then killed him that really ended his reign.He did EVERYTHING today's greatest boxers do, but he paced it for 45 round fights so it came in spurts. A truly revolutionary fighter.

12. Jimmy Wilde-More than any other he is hard to place precisely. Why? Because the flyweight division was more or less created for him and he spent much of his career fighting men10- 20 pounds heavier and weights often were not kept. But 137-5 with 99 KO's, with only two losses to flyweights? THE MAN for seven years and they created the division for you? That is amazing.

11. Archie Moore-7 defenses over 7 years as the MAN at 175. Most KO's in history. An incredible 12 BW including Holman Williams, Harold Johnson and Joey Maxim.

10. Roberto Duran-10 defenses at 135, one of the greatest wins in history over Ray Leonard. 7 BW and two extraordinary HOF quality careers with an 18 month hole in the middle.

9. Ezzard Charles-Seven defenses as heavyweight champion but an almost impossible 18 BW! He owned Archie Moore, Joey Maxim, Charley Burley and Jimmy Bivins among others. A case can be made for him being top 5. He missed ages 21-24 serving during WWII.

8. Benny Leonard- 9 defenses over seven years when the lightweight division was loaded. 12 BW. Widely considered the greatest fighter of his time. The classic stand up boxer.

7. Sam Langford- Never got a title shot. 20+ BW. Yup 20+. Beat Gans, Ketchel, Philly Jack O'Brien, Harry Wills and ended with over 200 wins.

6. Willie Pep-10 featherweight defenses over five years. 7 BW. Sandy Saddler had his number. Never quite the same after the plane crash in 1947, but he fought for another dozen years.

5. Joe Louis-Simply the most important fighter in history. 25 defenses over 11 years and 9 BW. He beat the previous five champions and the two which followed.

4. Harry Greb-Six defenses at middleweight. No biggie. 261 wins, ok. I stopped counting after 23 BW. From my top 50 alone he beat Tunney, Walker, Loughran and then added Norfolk, Gibbons, Levinsky. Oh yeah, everyone I've named here Greb beat AFTER he lost his eye in 1921. Went 45-0 with wins over 6 HOFers...in 1919 ALONE!

3. Muhammad Ali-18 defenses as THE MAN. 10 BW. The greatest roster of opponents faced in the history of the division. A revolutionary fighter in and outside the ring.

2. Henry Armstrong- 20 total defenses, 13 BW. Not enough? OK how about of the eight belts in the sport at the time he held three simultaneously and later fought a draw four a fourth. Any questions?

1. Ray Robinson-Calling him #1 really is underrating him. I'd say the accomplishment gap between Robinson and Armstrong is as big as the gap between Ar,strong and say Roberto Duran. Waaaay over 20 BW, never beaten by a welterweight. A peak record of 131-1-2. Fought HOFers over 30 times and won over 75% of those fights. Almost all his losses came after he was 35. Fought at a championship level for almost two decades.

So that's my list. I am NEVER doing this again. Have at it.

Marbs, do you have a soft spot for de la Hoya?

Heres links to the topics with your criteria.

Trying the Impossible I

Trying the Impossible II

And heres links to the original threads with the list.

50-26

25-1

Groundhog_Day wrote:

Marbs, do you have a soft spot for de la Hoya?

His criteria favoured him. Theres actually a post in the original thread where he addresses it.

WTF kinda horsehit list is THAT?

WHO TF is this MORON?

oscar in the top 50 and Sandy Saddler isn't?????

BHOP in and Dempsey out?????

This poster is an IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!

Groundhog_Day wrote:

Marbs, do you have a soft spot for de la Hoya?

I can only plead cluelessness and throw myself at the mercy of the court.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

WTF kinda horsehit list is THAT?

WHO TF is this MORON?

oscar in the top 50 and Sandy Saddler isn't?????

BHOP in and Dempsey out?????

This poster is an IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!

lmfao he comes out guns blazing

good try..somewtimes soo called being the man etc etc goes out the window..marciano out of the top 50 and jose naploes in the top 15 please...i rest by case..wheres dempsey rank number 57 lol..locche at number 35..even locche would probably say he dont belong.mickey walker number 37..ohhh boy..hopkins you say if he beats adamek realy moves him up the list.move him from what 46 where he dont deserve to what 30..whos adamek..why is a win over him soo important..ill give an A for effort and a F for knowledge.a F minus if you think adameks soo great..

marble surely you didnt post this on a espn message board as this is presented..i wont believe that for a second...even under the influence of 5 bottles of jack daniels do i see you having mickey walker at 37 and jose naploes in the top 15..

dmar5143 wrote:

marble surely you didnt post this on a espn message board as this is presented..i wont believe that for a second...even under the influence of 5 bottles of jack daniels do i see you having mickey walker at 37 and jose naploes in the top 15..

Can I plead nolo contendre and pretend I didn't REALLY do this?????????

dmar5143 wrote:

good try..somewtimes soo called being the man etc etc goes out the window..marciano out of the top 50 and jose naploes in the top 15 please...i rest by case..wheres dempsey rank number 57 lol..locche at number 35..even locche would probably say he dont belong.mickey walker number 37..ohhh boy..hopkins you say if he beats adamek realy moves him up the list.move him from what 46 where he dont deserve to what 30..whos adamek..why is a win over him soo important..ill give an A for effort and a F for knowledge.a F minus if you think adameks soo great..

Like I said the guy's a freaking MORON!!!!!!!

wow marb. i didnt know that you loved de la hoya so much. haha.

powerpuncher wrote:

wow marb. i didnt know that you loved de la hoya so much. haha.

It's a legit condition. I suffer from it too. Closeted ODLH fan syndrome. I don't want to like him but I do, and I also overrate him.

Groundhog_Day wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

wow marb. i didnt know that you loved de la hoya so much. haha.

It's a legit condition. I suffer from it too. Closeted ODLH fan syndrome. I don't want to like him but I do, and I also overrate him.

im a big de la hoya fan too. haha. he was a really good fighter though.

i cant blame marb too much for this. like i always say, your list always changes especially if you are making it up to 50 guys. thats a lot.

Groundhog_Day wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

wow marb. i didnt know that you loved de la hoya so much. haha.

It's a legit condition. I suffer from it too. Closeted ODLH fan syndrome. I don't want to like him but I do, and I also overrate him.

lmao groundhog everytime i see that guy i have to go to youtube and watch that video of dlh getting heckled lol

RUM CAPITAL wrote:

Groundhog_Day wrote:

powerpuncher wrote:

wow marb. i didnt know that you loved de la hoya so much. haha.

It's a legit condition. I suffer from it too. Closeted ODLH fan syndrome. I don't want to like him but I do, and I also overrate him.

lmao groundhog everytime i see that guy i have to go to youtube and watch that video of dlh getting heckled lol

LOL the funny thing is that guy was right. JMM didn't quit