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Subject: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:47 am
What do I mean by a stalker? Boxing writer Ted Sares refers to a stylistic class of fighters as "Stalk, stun and destroy." That is more or less what I mean. Fighters whose entire repertoire is measured, rather than frenetic, offense. I don't mean brawlers like Henry Armstrong or Ricky Hatton or Pipino Cuevas and I don't mean offensive legends who could also lure one in to vulnerability going backwards like Joe Louis or Ray Robinson. The style I am thinking of is characterized by the following: 1) Solely offensively minded. May be defensively sound but it is all in the service of the next offensive move. 2. Fights in a measured way. Doesn't throw a hundred punches a round, but the ones he does throw count and when he gets you hurt, look out because a fusillade is just around the corner. 3. Almost impossible to discourage. Not at all bothered by being behind on the cards and not particularly troubled by getting hit. Often they can be made to look temporarily silly by gifted boxers. Doesn't matter. They just keep coming. 4. Bodywork is normally an important element in their attack. The plan is simply to finally make the other man stationary and then it is just a matter of time. 5. Exceptional stamina. They are the tortoise, not the hare.
These men often win in a come from behind manner and usually accelerate their pace as the fight goes along. In many cases their excellence boils down to they can throw hard punches and take hard punches longer than just about anybody else. Often times their fights feel like a race to the finish line. If the foe can last the entire distance, he may be able to win. Few can do so against the great stalkers.
The analogies for this kind of fighter are an incoming tide, the Anton Chigurh character in No Country for Old Men or as someone here phrased it "creeping death." There is an inevitability to their victory and while the very end may be sudden, it often comes into view several rounds before it arrives. This style often produces stirring and dramatic fights.
Here are some of the best of the last forty years in no order.
Khaosai Galaxy-It seems almost impossible that that physique could be crammed into only 115 pounds. The Thai legend was simply too much man for anyone he faced. The antithesis of the slick southpaw, this one would lunge and lurch and stumble. But he always did so going forward and that piston-like left hand would hammer into the foe somewhere and gradually it would dawn on the viewer "Galaxy is just too powerful and too relentless" He lost in his seventh fight and then won his last 43, 38 by KO. The knockouts when they came usually weren't lightning strikes. Instead they had the feeling of a gradually crumbling building. Here is one of his best wins over the excellent Yong Kang Kim.
Carlos Zarate-An exceedingly tall and long bantam and unlike Galaxy an explosive puncher. An educated left and a cannon for a right hand. In 70 fights Zarate fought fewer than 300 rounds as a pro. He wasn't hard to find or hit, but almost nobody at 118 could stay in the ring more than five rounds. An extraordinary 90% KO ratio. A crunching bodypuncher, especially with uppercuts. Here he is destroying the unbeaten bomber Alfonso Zamora.
Wilfredo Gomez-Unlike the first two Bazooka didn't have an overwhelming physical presence. Instead he had a physical ruggedness and bricks in his gloves. As Gomez fights went on there often seemed to be a point where suddenly the light in the other guys furnace just went out. He simply didn't want to be in there anymore. It wouldn't be the end, but it made the end inevitable. A lot of Bazooka's final barrages included steaming bodyshots. His KO's made the victim crumple in on himself. Here is Gomez finishing ranked Juan Lopez.
Alexis Arguello-Something to remember about Arguello is he wasn't a 5'10" featherweight who ballooned up in the ring to 140. He was in the ring around 126-128. He was Klitschko-ian in his overwhelming size. From a technical perspective Arguello's offense was simply impeccable. Textbook standup fighter. Defensively he did a good job picking off punches but he was not fleet afoot nor hard to find. Arguello was once referred to as "the man with razor blades in his gloves." he cut everybody. Arguello could hurt and finish one with either hand but his prettiest punch was a laser straight right hand. Arguello's victims went like the rich man who became poor, gradually and then all at once. Arguello turned fights around with a single shot more than any fighter I can recall. Here Alexis is behind to ATG Ruben Olivares. And then he isn't.
The next two I want to mention are two men who were not strictly stalk and destroy guys until the years took their tolls and they became this way.
Julio Cesar Chavez at 130 and 135 could do a little bit of everything. He could move, counter and box. It wasn't really until he moved to 140 that the added weight limited his mobility and he became more one dimensional in his approach. For about a three year stretch beginning in 1989, Chavez's fights had a predictable sameness about them. He'd sleepwalk through the first round and the first half of the second. Towards the end of the second he'd begin to creep noticeably closer. In the third he'd begin landing thudding hooks to the body and by the middle of the fourth round the opponent had this look that said "what happened to my legs?" The it was just a matter of a few rounds. Chavez was a thumping puncher not an explosive one. He beat men up rather than turned the lights out. Here is Chavez putting the wood to Angel Hernandez.
Marvin Hagler-At his very best, around 1980, Marvin Hagler could do anything in a boxing ring. Anything. He was only 5'9 but he had a freaky 75 inch reach. By 1983 or so Marvin had slowed and transitioned into a stalker. He still showed flashes of the old versatility but more and more he became a simpler offensive machine relying more and more on his toughness than his skill. Hagler was a bit like Chavez and Gomez in that he usually beat people up rather than turned their lights out. Here the gallant Wilford Scypion gives it a go.
The last guy I want to mention went the other way. For the first decade of his career this fighter was a quintessential stalker reminiscent in some ways of Khaosia Galaxy. Clumsy, poorly balanced, relentless and largely one handed and straight-lined in his attack. Took shots to give them. But he had the explosiveness of Zarate in that left hand. Physically dynamic and utterly untrained. Later in his career he became a far more polished, two handed legend. I speak of course of Manny Pacquiao. But look at Manny before Freddie got to him.
Among active fighters Vic Darchynian fits this description as do Giovanni Segura, Antonio the Cheater and perhaps both Juan Manuel Lopez and Wladimir Klitschko. Though JML may well grow into a guy who has more variety and Wlad is a bit more reticent about trading than the men I have named here. Among prospects both Abner Mares and Saul Alvarez may end up belonging in this category.
Last edited by marbleheadmaui on Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:58 am; edited 1 time in total
Wolfgangsta Platinum Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Conor McGregor, Machida, Jon Jones, Ronda Rousey Posts : 18955 Join date : 2009-07-15 Location : USA
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:53 am
Your nerd energy is wasted in this place.
marbleheadmaui Red Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Arguello, Finito, Duran, Saad Muhammad Posts : 4040 Join date : 2010-05-16
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:54 am
Wolfgangsta wrote:
Your nerd energy is wasted in this place.
Always adding value aren't you?
Wolfgangsta Platinum Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Conor McGregor, Machida, Jon Jones, Ronda Rousey Posts : 18955 Join date : 2009-07-15 Location : USA
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:26 am
You could clean up your act and write for a legit boxing blog. Ever looked at badlefthook.com? You should repost this stuff in the fanpost areas. I'd bet your stuff would be routinely moved to the front page and you'd eventually be given a real writer role there. SBnation blogs actively promote the best fan writers.
Wolfgangsta Platinum Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Conor McGregor, Machida, Jon Jones, Ronda Rousey Posts : 18955 Join date : 2009-07-15 Location : USA
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:26 am
Favorite Fighter(s) : Conor McGregor, Machida, Jon Jones, Ronda Rousey Posts : 18955 Join date : 2009-07-15 Location : USA
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:28 am
Kingsown on the MMA side could invade bloodyelbow.com pretty easily too.
hardcoreBEE24 Purple Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Thomas Hearns Posts : 1285 Join date : 2009-07-16 Location : Massapequa Park, NY
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:30 am
From what I've seen Maidana fits this description. The 140 LB version of Miguel Cotto could be considered a stalker.
Great post. The clips are fantastic great work.
4445Frank Purple Belt
Posts : 1517 Join date : 2010-04-09
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:43 am
Great post. However, I always thought of Joe Louis as the ultimate stalker. His expression never changes (Not even in the Conn fight) , he's moving slowly forward most of the time and has the greatest concentration I've ever seen in any fighter. The only guy I saw moving ahead all the time was Joe Frazier. Joe had a great heart and was a HOF fighter, but damnit, he was never the brightest bulb in the lamp.
Tobe06 Orange Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Ali Posts : 357 Join date : 2010-08-18 Location : Ottawa, Canada
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:30 am
Wolfgangsta wrote:
You could clean up your act and write for a legit boxing blog. Ever looked at badlefthook.com? You should repost this stuff in the fanpost areas. I'd bet your stuff would be routinely moved to the front page and you'd eventually be given a real writer role there. SBnation blogs actively promote the best fan writers.
Man, why do you post here?
Marble - another great post, thanks.
4445Frank Purple Belt
Posts : 1517 Join date : 2010-04-09
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:26 am
Tobe06 wrote:
Wolfgangsta wrote:
You could clean up your act and write for a legit boxing blog. Ever looked at badlefthook.com? You should repost this stuff in the fanpost areas. I'd bet your stuff would be routinely moved to the front page and you'd eventually be given a real writer role there. SBnation blogs actively promote the best fan writers.
Man, why do you post here?
Marble - another great post, thanks.
Tobe, you have to understand that Wolfgansta is special. He actually sucked his own dick and broke his back doing it. I know because I instructed him on this site. Now, Wolf, if you want to prove you're the great man I always thought you were, here's what you do. Lean back, all the way back, and kiss your own ass. Now pick up the phone and call your local news station and the paramedics again. Boy, you're an incredible guy. Superstar!!! To think this is your second 15 minutes of fame is unbelievable and your detractors are now forced to admit they're dealing with a great man.
4445Frank Purple Belt
Posts : 1517 Join date : 2010-04-09
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:36 am
Wolf, on a serious note, you're a smart guy. An asshole,yes, but someone who could really add to this site. I know you're under 30 because you have not yet learned the art of "Listening." I'll give you two bits of advice that someone was kind enough to give me when I was an arrogant guy in my 20's. (a) You can think you're 100 percent right, and be 100 percent wrong." Very basic but priceless. You'll find that if you never leave basic thoughts, you can out think mental giants. (b)The greatest thing I personally ever learned was the "Art of Shutting The Fuck Up." Hear what you hear, see what you see and shut the fuck up. You learn a lot that way. Just trying to help out.
Wolfgangsta Platinum Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Conor McGregor, Machida, Jon Jones, Ronda Rousey Posts : 18955 Join date : 2009-07-15 Location : USA
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:30 pm
Are you faggots so unused to compliments that this is the response you give? Get over your fruitcake paranoia immediately. I was being nice to the guy. Clearly none of you would deny he has good blog talents? Hung up on the "nerd" element? As if you guys don't know and own the fight nerd label. I have a gajillion posts on an MMA forum, I am equally guilty.
Look at this thread. Most of you send misdirected anger at me, no one gave this guy's effort the time of day. My premise has been validated. This wasn't an easy write up and clearly took him at least an hour but likely a lot longer to write, and all you can do is say "you must be immature" immediately following a contrived insult about sucking one's own dick. The bitter irony aside, maui doesn't need to waste his energy entertaining a few thankless monkeys on this site who are too busy stumbling over themselves in a rush to try to "pwn" the big bad wolf to appreciate what this guy did. Fuck without this diatribe, he'd have like three replies to all that work. Sad.
RUM CAPITAL Blue Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Carlos Ortiz,Henry Armstrong and Wilfredo Gomez Posts : 770 Join date : 2010-07-10 Location : Massachusetts
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:42 pm
when i read the title i thought marb was referring to wolfgansta
gomez1012 Black Belt
Posts : 3011 Join date : 2010-05-26 Location : Bay Area
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:59 pm
Librado Andrade
4445Frank Purple Belt
Posts : 1517 Join date : 2010-04-09
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:04 pm
Wolfgangsta wrote:
Are you faggots so unused to compliments that this is the response you give? Get over your fruitcake paranoia immediately. I was being nice to the guy. Clearly none of you would deny he has good blog talents? Hung up on the "nerd" element? As if you guys don't know and own the fight nerd label. I have a gajillion posts on an MMA forum, I am equally guilty.
Look at this thread. Most of you send misdirected anger at me, no one gave this guy's effort the time of day. My premise has been validated. This wasn't an easy write up and clearly took him at least an hour but likely a lot longer to write, and all you can do is say "you must be immature" immediately following a contrived insult about sucking one's own dick. The bitter irony aside, maui doesn't need to waste his energy entertaining a few thankless monkeys on this site who are too busy stumbling over themselves in a rush to try to "pwn" the big bad wolf to appreciate what this guy did. Fuck without this diatribe, he'd have like three replies to all that work. Sad.
See Wolf, this is your problem. You only see things your own way. There is no logical opposition to your thinking according to your own mind. Wolf, we all know Marble is a gifted boxing writer and historian. He is also aware of that. Boxing is not the only thing Marble knows about. Though I'm on here a lot, there are other things in my life much more important than the sweet science. Marble, from what I gather, is not in need of any extra money. Also, being the smart guy he is, if he wanted to post on these blogs you mention, he would've already done so. Your suggestion was cool. However, you chose to put down the whole board and initially insult Marble while making it. Also, just because I disagree with you and fuck with your mind now and then, doesn't mean I dislike you. Actually, though I'd go to a shrink if I agreed with you on just about anything, I admire the passion you put behind your arguments. All I've ever tried to do is get you to "shut the fuck up" until you know the score. In all seriousness, what's so bad about that? Somebody did it for me and now I'm trying to do it for you. You're a smart, learned, well read, angry guy who thinks he's telling it like it is. I get that. Just give some people on here a fucking chance and listen to what they have to say, then consider it. If you disagree with a thread, try to find the part you agree with and comment on that. Soon, you'll find that regardless of all the literature you've read, there's a bunch of info on everything you have no idea about. That's when you've arrived. When you've come to the conclusion that you really don't know shit about how the world works. (There is a "KISS MY ASS" clause in this for Wolf just in case he makes a smart ass comment after reading it.)
marbleheadmaui Red Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Arguello, Finito, Duran, Saad Muhammad Posts : 4040 Join date : 2010-05-16
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:08 pm
4445Frank wrote:
Great post. However, I always thought of Joe Louis as the ultimate stalker. His expression never changes (Not even in the Conn fight) , he's moving slowly forward most of the time and has the greatest concentration I've ever seen in any fighter. The only guy I saw moving ahead all the time was Joe Frazier. Joe had a great heart and was a HOF fighter, but damnit, he was never the brightest bulb in the lamp.
I think Louis is a cut above this category. He was craftier than most of these guys which is why I excluded him. No subjectivity there huh?
Frazier belongs. I got tired
marbleheadmaui Red Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Arguello, Finito, Duran, Saad Muhammad Posts : 4040 Join date : 2010-05-16
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:10 pm
RUM CAPITAL wrote:
when i read the title i thought marb was referring to wolfgansta
THAT was funny!
Diego408 Green Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : The Marquez Brothers, Robert Guerrero, Abner Mares, Andre Ward, Sergio Martinez, Devon Alexander, Jose Benavidez Jr and Nick Diaz Posts : 588 Join date : 2010-05-21 Age : 35 Location : Gilroy, CA
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:11 pm
Yeah, I kind of Agree with Wolfdouchebag. Marble should become a boxing writer, I mean Marbles post are the reason I came to ninjas. He could easily take Fat man Dans job.
Back on Topic, Angulo should be mentioned.
marbleheadmaui Red Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Arguello, Finito, Duran, Saad Muhammad Posts : 4040 Join date : 2010-05-16
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:12 pm
gomez1012 wrote:
Librado Andrade
Yeah I guess. The guys I included, for the most part anyway, have some craft. Libro has none.
Tobe06 Orange Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Ali Posts : 357 Join date : 2010-08-18 Location : Ottawa, Canada
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:13 pm
Diego408 wrote:
Yeah, I kind of Agree with Wolfdouchebag. Marble should become a boxing writer, I mean Marbles post are the reason I came to ninjas. He could easily take Fat man Dans job.
Back on Topic, Angulo should be mentioned.
No way ESPN replaces Rafel; his TV-friendly face is the reason he's so popular
On topic - what about Micky Ward?
Wolfgangsta Platinum Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Conor McGregor, Machida, Jon Jones, Ronda Rousey Posts : 18955 Join date : 2009-07-15 Location : USA
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:14 pm
maui how long did this take to write?
4445Frank Purple Belt
Posts : 1517 Join date : 2010-04-09
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:16 pm
Marble, I see where you're coming from, but I always thought of Louis as "The Terminator." He reminded of that character more than any boxer. Maybe you're right, but that's my idea of Joe Louis. Long ago, when I mentioned that Joe was a gentleman, you got me straight on that. He was no angel (In fact, he was a womanizer. I have nothing against them as I've been one on and off for a while.). Funny, when I thought of his friendship with Sonny Liston, I thought of Liston as a bad influence. Maybe it was Joe being a bad influence on him. LOL Louis is not a bad fellow and I'm not suggesting that he was. I've said all this to get across how I see this guy in the ring. He was one of the hardest most merciless men I've ever seen in any sport and seemed to be fearless. Listen to the description the hero (Forgot his name) gives the "Terminator" in the original picture. There are some words that you have to delete, but for the most part, it's a perfect description of Joe Louis. LOL
marbleheadmaui Red Belt
Favorite Fighter(s) : Arguello, Finito, Duran, Saad Muhammad Posts : 4040 Join date : 2010-05-16
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:17 pm
Tobe06 wrote:
Diego408 wrote:
Yeah, I kind of Agree with Wolfdouchebag. Marble should become a boxing writer, I mean Marbles post are the reason I came to ninjas. He could easily take Fat man Dans job.
Back on Topic, Angulo should be mentioned.
No way ESPN replaces Rafel; his TV-friendly face is the reason he's so popular
On topic - what about Micky Ward?
Stylistically yes. Competency wise he's not in the class of the guys I listed.
Joe Frazier clearly belonged as Hardcore noted. How I left Bob Foster out is a mystery.
shakefree White Belt
Posts : 77 Join date : 2010-07-24
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:18 pm
great read & thought provoking as usual marble.from a biased,maybe.viewpoint i think kostya was that type of fighter.
gomez1012 Black Belt
Posts : 3011 Join date : 2010-05-26 Location : Bay Area
Subject: Re: A LIFETIME OF STALKERS Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:18 pm
marbleheadmaui wrote:
gomez1012 wrote:
Librado Andrade
Yeah I guess. The guys I included, for the most part anyway, have some craft. Libro has none.
I agree, was skeptical at throwing his name into this group