BOOKS THAT CHANGED YOUR MIND

I would bet a fair bit of money that every one of you has read one or more books that has really changed the way you see the world. I am always looking for new books. I'll go first. These are not in any order.

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions-Thomas Kuhn's famous account of how major scientific advancements actually occur and become accepted and how intuition, persuasion, conversion, politics and other human characteristics make science far more like other human fields of study than many think. Kuhn created the term "paradigm shift" for an explanation of how major scientific discoveries become accepted. This book allows one to not defer or stand in awe of scientists or of science. It isn't some objective, above the fray process. Science is all too human and all too contingent. A serious read, but readily understandable.

Homer's Illiad-A poetic account of a few days of the Trojan War. This poem is 3000 years old. Why is it on the list? Because it addressed major human issues in detail, war, peace, love, loyalty, family, betrayal, the nature of political power, human interaction with the environment, jealousy, technological advancement, power, character etc. Not only did it address these issues, it does so in a way we can understand and interact with today. What does that demonstrate? That there is likely such a thing as human nature that exists across time and culture. An amazing read, but it takes serious concentration and focus. Best read in bursts.


Being and Time-Martin Heidegger's masterpiece and the most influential piece of philosophy written in the 20th Century. A search into the most basic issues facing humanity. It starts with the definition of dasein. Heidegger's name for man. "Dasein is the being for whom being is an issue." The human search for the authentic, the human habit for success, the human not really consciously noticing the world around them unless something goes wrong (when you drive home you don't THINK about driving home, you just do it. Your mind is elsewhere while you are doing it.) This is an incredibly difficult and enlightening read. Incredibly difficult. The way I did it was after a friend told me to read it like a science fiction novel with dasein as the star.


The Gospel of John-The most beautiful and philosophically thoughtful of the Gospels. Unbelievably complex using myriad literary tools. Really makes one rethink the relationship and limitations of man to God and to one another. Easy to read, takes work to understand and recognize the poetry.

The Constitution of Liberty-Frederich Hayek's greatest work. The best exploration of Liberty I've ever read. Makes a powerful case that human progress is always and everywhere unpredictable and therefore cannot be, and should not try to be, governed. Things like the personal computer, the rise of the web, Norman Borloaug's wheat etc seem to demonstrate Hayek is really onto something.

Stranger in a Strange Land-Robert Heinlein's science fiction account of an utterly clean slate arriving on earth and seeing man without preconceptions. He ends up forming a church, practicing free love and dying the way saviours die. What I love about the book is Heinlein's humor and the recognition that human life is an inductive process and how assuming things we do not know lead us into mistakes over and over again.

Truth and Method-Hans Georg Gadamer's masterpiece of hermeneutics. In this he demonstrates, among other things. that prejudices are necessary to understanding our world. What he means is if we don't bring a basic understanding of say evolution to the natural world, it is very difficult to make sense of the natural world. The prejudice, taking evolution as valid, is necessary to understanding. Yet in saying this he is also saying that evolution therefore is only a human construct for explaining nature and not something that in any way binds nature or that functions IN nature the way we explain it. Gadamer also has this extraordinary explanation of culture as a river that we can never escape in creating a worldview. The "objective" view is simply not possible for a man. Extraordinary and difficult.

Death by Government-Hawaii professor RJ Rummels' devastating research into the greatest killing machines in human history. Governments killing their own citizens. Staggering in its impact and immensely powerful in its implications. Easy read.

The Old Man and the Sea-Hemingway's brief account of an old Cuban fisherman and his battle with the sharks for his catch. There is dignity in every productive human endeavor. An easy and wonderful read.

Gulliver's Travels-Jonathan Swift's extraordinarily funny satire of mankind. He provides some valuable insights. What should one do to the political classes? Literally piss on them. What do the self professed moral giants look like up close? Monstrous. How practically useful is the academy? Not very. Easy to read, hard to read well.

Those are some of the books that changed my mind. What do you have that I should be reading?

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way. Of course a devout Muslim would say neither of us has read the Koran as we didn't read it in Arabic.

Kama Sutra

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

Ali_1748 wrote:

Kuma Sutra

The world's most useful self-improvement manual!

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way. Of course a devout Muslim would say neither of us has read the Koran as we didn't read it in Arabic.

And to be honest he might be right.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

We do. But the differences are GIGANTIC! Far broader and deeper than the differences between the West and Hinduism or Bhuddism or heck Zorastrianism!

"Everybody Poops"

Twilight Saga

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way. Of course a devout Muslim would say neither of us has read the Koran as we didn't read it in Arabic.

And to be honest he might be right.

Well, translation is ALWAYS incomplete and inexact. That applies to everything. By that logic one hasn't read the New Testament unless one has read it in Koine Greek or Don Quixote unless it was in Spanish or Sun Tzu unless it was in Chinese.

It isn't a very useful way of thinking in my view. Limited understanding in literature is better than punting isn't it?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

We do. But the differences are GIGANTIC! Far broader and deeper than the differences between the West and Hinduism or Bhuddism or heck Zorastrianism!

No way we both believe in GOD. Those religons are way different. Right now I think everyone is just on edge and they should be. We have made small differences into huge issues. Just like with us and the Jewish faith.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way. Of course a devout Muslim would say neither of us has read the Koran as we didn't read it in Arabic.

And to be honest he might be right.

Well, translation is ALWAYS incomplete and inexact. That applies to everything. By that logic one hasn't read the New Testament unless one has read it in Koine Greek or Don Quixote unless it was in Spanish or Sun Tzu unless it was in Chinese.

It isn't a very useful way of thinking in my view. Limited understanding in literature is better than punting isn't it?

I agree. I say I have read the quran but I also understand why people would say we havent. I dont agree with them fully but hey to each their own.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

We do. But the differences are GIGANTIC! Far broader and deeper than the differences between the West and Hinduism or Bhuddism or heck Zorastrianism!

No way we both believe in GOD. Those religons are way different. Right now I think everyone is just on edge and they should be. We have made small differences into huge issues. Just like with us and the Jewish faith.

NONSENSE! Equating Allah and, for example, the God of Jesus is like equating my feeble efforts here and Dosteevsky and saying well we're both writers.

A major difference is the West believes more or less in freedom of religion. Islam doesn't.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way. Of course a devout Muslim would say neither of us has read the Koran as we didn't read it in Arabic.

And to be honest he might be right.

Well, translation is ALWAYS incomplete and inexact. That applies to everything. By that logic one hasn't read the New Testament unless one has read it in Koine Greek or Don Quixote unless it was in Spanish or Sun Tzu unless it was in Chinese.

It isn't a very useful way of thinking in my view. Limited understanding in literature is better than punting isn't it?

I agree. I say I have read the quran but I also understand why people would say we havent. I dont agree with them fully but hey to each their own.

But see that doesn't work. Because that view says, in this case, we cannot talk to one another, that useful communication is impossible. If that is true all that is left is conflict. UGH.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

We do. But the differences are GIGANTIC! Far broader and deeper than the differences between the West and Hinduism or Bhuddism or heck Zorastrianism!

No way we both believe in GOD. Those religons are way different. Right now I think everyone is just on edge and they should be. We have made small differences into huge issues. Just like with us and the Jewish faith.

NONSENSE! Equating Allah and, for example, the God of Jesus is like equating my feeble efforts here and Dosteevsky and saying well we're both writers.

A major difference is the West believes more or less in freedom of religion. Islam doesn't.

Kinda, We have done our share of persecution.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

We do. But the differences are GIGANTIC! Far broader and deeper than the differences between the West and Hinduism or Bhuddism or heck Zorastrianism!

No way we both believe in GOD. Those religons are way different. Right now I think everyone is just on edge and they should be. We have made small differences into huge issues. Just like with us and the Jewish faith.

NONSENSE! Equating Allah and, for example, the God of Jesus is like equating my feeble efforts here and Dosteevsky and saying well we're both writers.

A major difference is the West believes more or less in freedom of religion. Islam doesn't.

Kinda, We have done our share of persecution.

Yup. And today? We have Muslim mosques, Bhuddist and Hindu Temples etc. all over the West. How many non Muslim churches in Mecca or Medina or Tehran?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

We do. But the differences are GIGANTIC! Far broader and deeper than the differences between the West and Hinduism or Bhuddism or heck Zorastrianism!

No way we both believe in GOD. Those religons are way different. Right now I think everyone is just on edge and they should be. We have made small differences into huge issues. Just like with us and the Jewish faith.

NONSENSE! Equating Allah and, for example, the God of Jesus is like equating my feeble efforts here and Dosteevsky and saying well we're both writers.

A major difference is the West believes more or less in freedom of religion. Islam doesn't.

Kinda, We have done our share of persecution.

Yup. And today? We have Muslim mosques, Bhuddist and Hindu Temples etc. all over the West. How many non Muslim churches in Mecca or Medina or Tehran?

I can honestly say I dont know I have never been there. But you might be correct.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

We do. But the differences are GIGANTIC! Far broader and deeper than the differences between the West and Hinduism or Bhuddism or heck Zorastrianism!

No way we both believe in GOD. Those religons are way different. Right now I think everyone is just on edge and they should be. We have made small differences into huge issues. Just like with us and the Jewish faith.

NONSENSE! Equating Allah and, for example, the God of Jesus is like equating my feeble efforts here and Dosteevsky and saying well we're both writers.

A major difference is the West believes more or less in freedom of religion. Islam doesn't.

Kinda, We have done our share of persecution.

Yup. And today? We have Muslim mosques, Bhuddist and Hindu Temples etc. all over the West. How many non Muslim churches in Mecca or Medina or Tehran?

I can honestly say I dont know I have never been there. But you might be correct.

I AM correct.

Heck it is illegal for non-Muslims to even set foot in Mecca or Medina!

There are a handful of non-Mulsim churches and Temples in Tehran for what it's worth. Though all of them predate the Islamic Revolutiuon of 1979 and apostasy carries a death sentence. Nice huh?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

We do. But the differences are GIGANTIC! Far broader and deeper than the differences between the West and Hinduism or Bhuddism or heck Zorastrianism!

No way we both believe in GOD. Those religons are way different. Right now I think everyone is just on edge and they should be. We have made small differences into huge issues. Just like with us and the Jewish faith.

NONSENSE! Equating Allah and, for example, the God of Jesus is like equating my feeble efforts here and Dosteevsky and saying well we're both writers.

A major difference is the West believes more or less in freedom of religion. Islam doesn't.

Kinda, We have done our share of persecution.

Yup. And today? We have Muslim mosques, Bhuddist and Hindu Temples etc. all over the West. How many non Muslim churches in Mecca or Medina or Tehran?

I can honestly say I dont know I have never been there. But you might be correct.

I AM correct.

Heck it is illegal for non-Muslims to even set foot in Mecca or Medina!

There are a handful of non-Mulsim churches and Temples in Tehran for what it's worth. Though all of them predate the Islamic Revolutiuon of 1979 and apostasy carries a death sentence. Nice huh?

I just hate how the extreme muslims are in charge of so much. That is the biggest problem right now.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

We do. But the differences are GIGANTIC! Far broader and deeper than the differences between the West and Hinduism or Bhuddism or heck Zorastrianism!

No way we both believe in GOD. Those religons are way different. Right now I think everyone is just on edge and they should be. We have made small differences into huge issues. Just like with us and the Jewish faith.

NONSENSE! Equating Allah and, for example, the God of Jesus is like equating my feeble efforts here and Dosteevsky and saying well we're both writers.

A major difference is the West believes more or less in freedom of religion. Islam doesn't.

Kinda, We have done our share of persecution.

Yup. And today? We have Muslim mosques, Bhuddist and Hindu Temples etc. all over the West. How many non Muslim churches in Mecca or Medina or Tehran?

I can honestly say I dont know I have never been there. But you might be correct.

I AM correct.

Heck it is illegal for non-Muslims to even set foot in Mecca or Medina!

There are a handful of non-Mulsim churches and Temples in Tehran for what it's worth. Though all of them predate the Islamic Revolutiuon of 1979 and apostasy carries a death sentence. Nice huh?

I just hate how the extreme muslims are in charge of so much. That is the biggest problem right now.

And here's my BIG question. How extreme and small in number can they be if they are in charge of so much and tolerated by the "moderate" masses?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

We do. But the differences are GIGANTIC! Far broader and deeper than the differences between the West and Hinduism or Bhuddism or heck Zorastrianism!

No way we both believe in GOD. Those religons are way different. Right now I think everyone is just on edge and they should be. We have made small differences into huge issues. Just like with us and the Jewish faith.

NONSENSE! Equating Allah and, for example, the God of Jesus is like equating my feeble efforts here and Dosteevsky and saying well we're both writers.

A major difference is the West believes more or less in freedom of religion. Islam doesn't.

Kinda, We have done our share of persecution.

Yup. And today? We have Muslim mosques, Bhuddist and Hindu Temples etc. all over the West. How many non Muslim churches in Mecca or Medina or Tehran?

I can honestly say I dont know I have never been there. But you might be correct.

I AM correct.

Heck it is illegal for non-Muslims to even set foot in Mecca or Medina!

There are a handful of non-Mulsim churches and Temples in Tehran for what it's worth. Though all of them predate the Islamic Revolutiuon of 1979 and apostasy carries a death sentence. Nice huh?

I just hate how the extreme muslims are in charge of so much. That is the biggest problem right now.

And here's my BIG question. How extreme and small in number can they be if they are in charge of so much and tolerated by the "moderate" masses?

Thats a great question and I dont have the answer for that (besides we have had that argument before LOL). All I can say is we in this country have had extremist in charge before too. So has Germany, Russia, France. We all have and they were small in number. Look at Stalin. The people hated him but were too scared to do anything. I think thats what is going on in Iran right now. Ahmandinejad has a lot of people who do not like him right now.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

We do. But the differences are GIGANTIC! Far broader and deeper than the differences between the West and Hinduism or Bhuddism or heck Zorastrianism!

No way we both believe in GOD. Those religons are way different. Right now I think everyone is just on edge and they should be. We have made small differences into huge issues. Just like with us and the Jewish faith.

NONSENSE! Equating Allah and, for example, the God of Jesus is like equating my feeble efforts here and Dosteevsky and saying well we're both writers.

A major difference is the West believes more or less in freedom of religion. Islam doesn't.

Kinda, We have done our share of persecution.

Yup. And today? We have Muslim mosques, Bhuddist and Hindu Temples etc. all over the West. How many non Muslim churches in Mecca or Medina or Tehran?

I can honestly say I dont know I have never been there. But you might be correct.

I AM correct.

Heck it is illegal for non-Muslims to even set foot in Mecca or Medina!

There are a handful of non-Mulsim churches and Temples in Tehran for what it's worth. Though all of them predate the Islamic Revolutiuon of 1979 and apostasy carries a death sentence. Nice huh?

I just hate how the extreme muslims are in charge of so much. That is the biggest problem right now.

And here's my BIG question. How extreme and small in number can they be if they are in charge of so much and tolerated by the "moderate" masses?

Thats a great question and I dont have the answer for that (besides we have had that argument before LOL). All I can say is we in this country have had extremist in charge before too. So has Germany, Russia, France. We all have and they were small in number. Look at Stalin. The people hated him but were too scared to do anything. I think thats what is going on in Iran right now. Ahmandinejad has a lot of people who do not like him right now.

I don't have the answer either. I also think equating ANY American President to those loons is waaaaay off base. I really do think there are ultimately only three possible outcomes to the Islam and the West Issue. 1) Mecca is nuked 2) Sharia takes a dominant position in the West or 3) There is an Islamic reformation from within that pushes the extremists, well, to the extremes. I'm rooting for #3 to happen before 1 or 2. I figure we have maybe 50 years. Maybe less before 1 or 2 happens.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

We do. But the differences are GIGANTIC! Far broader and deeper than the differences between the West and Hinduism or Bhuddism or heck Zorastrianism!

No way we both believe in GOD. Those religons are way different. Right now I think everyone is just on edge and they should be. We have made small differences into huge issues. Just like with us and the Jewish faith.

NONSENSE! Equating Allah and, for example, the God of Jesus is like equating my feeble efforts here and Dosteevsky and saying well we're both writers.

A major difference is the West believes more or less in freedom of religion. Islam doesn't.

Kinda, We have done our share of persecution.

Yup. And today? We have Muslim mosques, Bhuddist and Hindu Temples etc. all over the West. How many non Muslim churches in Mecca or Medina or Tehran?

I can honestly say I dont know I have never been there. But you might be correct.

I AM correct.

Heck it is illegal for non-Muslims to even set foot in Mecca or Medina!

There are a handful of non-Mulsim churches and Temples in Tehran for what it's worth. Though all of them predate the Islamic Revolutiuon of 1979 and apostasy carries a death sentence. Nice huh?

I just hate how the extreme muslims are in charge of so much. That is the biggest problem right now.

And here's my BIG question. How extreme and small in number can they be if they are in charge of so much and tolerated by the "moderate" masses?

Thats a great question and I dont have the answer for that (besides we have had that argument before LOL). All I can say is we in this country have had extremist in charge before too. So has Germany, Russia, France. We all have and they were small in number. Look at Stalin. The people hated him but were too scared to do anything. I think thats what is going on in Iran right now. Ahmandinejad has a lot of people who do not like him right now.

I don't have the answer either. I also think equating ANY American President to those loons is waaaaay off base. I really do think there are ultimately only three possible outcomes to the Islam and the West Issue. 1) Mecca is nuked 2) Sharia takes a dominant position in the West or 3) There is an Islamic reformation from within that pushes the extremists, well, to the extremes. I'm rooting for #3 to happen before 1 or 2. I figure we have maybe 50 years. Maybe less before 1 or 2 happens.

I see number 3 happening. BTW I would bet everything I have that Bush is just as bad of an extremist if he told you exactly what he could have liked to do. Also Andrew Jackson was nothing but a racist and a murderer himself.

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

The book that changed my mind more than any other.

Quran- I thought like most people who do not know anything that all muslims were evil and their religon was evil. Then I read the quran in college. (I was assigned it) It surprised me how much we have in common.

It changed my mind the other way.

Really? How can you not read the 5 pillars and think we dont have a ton in common?

We do. But the differences are GIGANTIC! Far broader and deeper than the differences between the West and Hinduism or Bhuddism or heck Zorastrianism!

No way we both believe in GOD. Those religons are way different. Right now I think everyone is just on edge and they should be. We have made small differences into huge issues. Just like with us and the Jewish faith.

NONSENSE! Equating Allah and, for example, the God of Jesus is like equating my feeble efforts here and Dosteevsky and saying well we're both writers.

A major difference is the West believes more or less in freedom of religion. Islam doesn't.

Kinda, We have done our share of persecution.

Yup. And today? We have Muslim mosques, Bhuddist and Hindu Temples etc. all over the West. How many non Muslim churches in Mecca or Medina or Tehran?

I can honestly say I dont know I have never been there. But you might be correct.

I AM correct.

Heck it is illegal for non-Muslims to even set foot in Mecca or Medina!

There are a handful of non-Mulsim churches and Temples in Tehran for what it's worth. Though all of them predate the Islamic Revolutiuon of 1979 and apostasy carries a death sentence. Nice huh?

I just hate how the extreme muslims are in charge of so much. That is the biggest problem right now.

And here's my BIG question. How extreme and small in number can they be if they are in charge of so much and tolerated by the "moderate" masses?

Thats a great question and I dont have the answer for that (besides we have had that argument before LOL). All I can say is we in this country have had extremist in charge before too. So has Germany, Russia, France. We all have and they were small in number. Look at Stalin. The people hated him but were too scared to do anything. I think thats what is going on in Iran right now. Ahmandinejad has a lot of people who do not like him right now.

I don't have the answer either. I also think equating ANY American President to those loons is waaaaay off base. I really do think there are ultimately only three possible outcomes to the Islam and the West Issue. 1) Mecca is nuked 2) Sharia takes a dominant position in the West or 3) There is an Islamic reformation from within that pushes the extremists, well, to the extremes. I'm rooting for #3 to happen before 1 or 2. I figure we have maybe 50 years. Maybe less before 1 or 2 happens.

I see number 3 happening. BTW I would bet everything I have that Bush is just as bad of an extremist if he told you exactly what he could have liked to do. Also Andrew Jackson was nothing but a racist and a murderer himself.

Yeah, W would have lined up folks for honor killing and stonings right? Geeze. Hell you wanna talk extremism in the Presidency? FDR and his internment camps are the best example. Jackson was simply a man of his time. Judging him by today's norms is sorta silly.

As for the reformation of Islam, it seems to be going the WRONG way. The people who attempt reform get in a variety of spheres just get murdered. In that way the Islamic world is a little like Japan in the 1930's. It's a problem. I see very little evidence that the Wahhabists are, for example, getting shoved back into their theological holes or the writings of Sayed Qutb are being rejected. Believe me I hope I'm wrong. But I don't see evidence that I am.