LOUSY YOUNGUNS OR EXTRAORDINARY OLD GUYS

Canvas wrote:

Marble, I think athletes in all pro sports are aging better due to nutrition and training. As a result they are staying productive longer. I know that is certainly the case in the NHL, and I don't think it's because the current crop of young hockey players are inferior to previous generations.

Yeah except the NHL has ALWAYS had players with great longevity. It isn't new like it is in boxing.

Gordie Howe was 50ish in the 1970's
Doug Harvey was mid-40's in the 1960's
Johnny Bower was mid 40's in the 1960's
Tim Horton was mid 40's in the 1970's

Then a whole series of goalies played well into their forties like Lester Patrick, Jacques Plante, Gump Worlsey, all waaaay before the 1990's.

shakefree wrote:

ahh marble,great post.i missed these types of posts after you left the schoolyard only thing i can think to add,not sure if someone else mentioned it haven't read all replies yet,is that age increases as bout frequecy decreases.less activity,less wear & tear,more longevity

That's the best explanation I've read. If EVERYONE is fighting fewer fights then the old guys still have the experience edge.

The issue is do you want to watch a guy who has 50 fights, and the experience that goes with it, with 27 year old reflexes and stamina and athleticism, or the same guy with 35 year old reflexes and stamina and athleticism?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

And your evidence that they don't provide similar improvements to youguns is what exactly? I mean all that stuff seemed to be an awfully big help to Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, the Carolina Panthers O-line, Jose Canseco, Jason Giambi, the entire East German swimming program, Michelle Smith, etc. when they were all in their twenties.

The other error in your reasoning, in my view, is the notion that AGE gives one experience in boxing, But that isn't true. FIGHTING gives on experience. What I mean is who has more useful boxing experience, a 27 year olf with 60 fights or a 35 year old with 40 fights?

Example - Mexican fighters that start young, take their losses, keep fighting, grow and learn as fighters

as money increased,fighters have less reason to fight,so age becomes a factor because they haven't had the wars.so no i would prefer a tradesman who has learnt the trade from the bottom up,learnt from their mistakes,than one who has done the trade part time.

Fighters can maintain their athleticism longer. Great fighters can fight at a high level to an older age. Many of these great fighters have the experience, skill and athleticism to beat younger fighters.

Why is this happening? In no specific order:

1. Enhanced nutrition & training methods - These benefit older fighters more because they allow guys to retain their athleticism. An older fighter can remain athletic enough that his better skill and experience will win out.

2. Enhanced medicine - Injuries can be treated better. Guys can recover faster and stronger. Two examples I used before were Floyd's hands and potentially Yuri's knee. I'm sure there are more.

3. Less wear and tear - The rate at which guys fight today is much lower. It allows fighters to rest their bodies more and fight at an older age.

4. Getting an inferior quality athlete and trainer - Fewer good boxers and trainers. MMA has sprung up recently as another option for guys with fighting talents further drawing from the pool of potential boxers. Athletes in Football, Basketball, Baseball and Soccer are getting paid more and more.

Guys from the 90s still reign supreme. Guys from the 70s and 80s notoriously burned out on drugs and too much too soon in many cases. Good older fighters is a trend that's likely to continue.

Gumby wrote:

Fighters can maintain their athleticism longer. Great fighters can fight at a high level to an older age. Many of these great fighters have the experience, skill and athleticism to beat younger fighters.

Why is this happening? In no specific order:

1. Enhanced nutrition & training methods - These benefit older fighters more because they allow guys to retain their athleticism. An older fighter can remain athletic enough that his better skill and experience will win out.

2. Enhanced medicine - Injuries can be treated better. Guys can recover faster and stronger. Two examples I used before were Floyd's hands and potentially Yuri's knee. I'm sure there are more.

3. Less wear and tear - The rate at which guys fight today is much lower. It allows fighters to rest their bodies more and fight at an older age.

4. Getting an inferior quality athlete and trainer - Fewer good boxers and trainers. MMA has sprung up recently as another option for guys with fighting talents further drawing from the pool of potential boxers. Athletes in Football, Basketball, Baseball and Soccer are getting paid more and more.

Guys from the 90s still reign supreme. Guys from the 70s and 80s notoriously burned out on drugs and too much too soon in many cases. Good older fighters is a trend that's likely to continue.

There just isn't a SHRED of evidence that numbers 1-2 are true more for older fighters nthan younger ones though, is there?

Here is some more evidence that this is NOT caused by "medicine, drugs, nutrition etc."

This chart shows the average age of NHL players for WWI through today. If the reason was the stuff above one would expect NHL players to be getting older too. They aren't

http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_AverageAge.php

I am going to check other sports.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Here is some more evidence that this is NOT caused by "medicine, drugs, nutrition etc."

This chart shows the average age of NHL players for WWI through today. If the reason was the stuff above one would expect NHL players to be getting older too. They aren't

http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_AverageAge.php

I am going to check other sports.

I bet basketball and baseball are older now. Football might be younger because of the wear and tear of todays game is much worse than it ever has been.

This piece of research shows the most successful NBA players are actually getting YOUNGER rather than older.

Doesn't the nutrition, medicine, steroids idea apply to the NBA too?

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=571

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Here is some more evidence that this is NOT caused by "medicine, drugs, nutrition etc."

This chart shows the average age of NHL players for WWI through today. If the reason was the stuff above one would expect NHL players to be getting older too. They aren't

http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_AverageAge.php

I am going to check other sports.

I bet basketball and baseball are older now. Football might be younger because of the wear and tear of todays game is much worse than it ever has been.

Um, nope. Wrong on basketball. Ready to quit yet?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

This piece of research shows the most successful NBA players are actually getting YOUNGER rather than older.

Doesn't the nutrition, medicine, steroids idea apply to the NBA too?

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=571

Thats going to happen though in any sport. But what about the average age?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Gumby wrote:

Fighters can maintain their athleticism longer. Great fighters can fight at a high level to an older age. Many of these great fighters have the experience, skill and athleticism to beat younger fighters.

Why is this happening? In no specific order:

1. Enhanced nutrition & training methods - These benefit older fighters more because they allow guys to retain their athleticism. An older fighter can remain athletic enough that his better skill and experience will win out.

2. Enhanced medicine - Injuries can be treated better. Guys can recover faster and stronger. Two examples I used before were Floyd's hands and potentially Yuri's knee. I'm sure there are more.

3. Less wear and tear - The rate at which guys fight today is much lower. It allows fighters to rest their bodies more and fight at an older age.

4. Getting an inferior quality athlete and trainer - Fewer good boxers and trainers. MMA has sprung up recently as another option for guys with fighting talents further drawing from the pool of potential boxers. Athletes in Football, Basketball, Baseball and Soccer are getting paid more and more.

Guys from the 90s still reign supreme. Guys from the 70s and 80s notoriously burned out on drugs and too much too soon in many cases. Good older fighters is a trend that's likely to continue.

There just isn't a SHRED of evidence that numbers 1-2 are true more for older fighters nthan younger ones though, is there?

It's not that it helps them more. It's that it allows them to maintain. It has nothing to do with the younger fighters. It's that older fighters can compete for longer.

For #1 let's take BHOP. Let's say he's currently at 80% athletic prime. He's able to compete much better than if he was at 60% of his athletic prime, regardless of competition.

For #2 it helps all fighters equally. But if it allows a fighter to continue fighting at a high level after injuries, it will allow them to compete longer. If good fighters are able compete longer, they can still dominate at an older age.

[quote="Gumby"]

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Gumby wrote:

Fighters can maintain their athleticism longer. Great fighters can fight at a high level to an older age. Many of these great fighters have the experience, skill and athleticism to beat younger fighters.

Why is this happening? In no specific order:

1. Enhanced nutrition & training methods - These benefit older fighters more because they allow guys to retain their athleticism. An older fighter can remain athletic enough that his better skill and experience will win out.

2. Enhanced medicine - Injuries can be treated better. Guys can recover faster and stronger. Two examples I used before were Floyd's hands and potentially Yuri's knee. I'm sure there are more.

3. Less wear and tear - The rate at which guys fight today is much lower. It allows fighters to rest their bodies more and fight at an older age.

4. Getting an inferior quality athlete and trainer - Fewer good boxers and trainers. MMA has sprung up recently as another option for guys with fighting talents further drawing from the pool of potential boxers. Athletes in Football, Basketball, Baseball and Soccer are getting paid more and more.

Guys from the 90s still reign supreme. Guys from the 70s and 80s notoriously burned out on drugs and too much too soon in many cases. Good older fighters is a trend that's likely to continue.

There just isn't a SHRED of evidence that numbers 1-2 are true more for older fighters nthan younger ones though, is there?

It's not that it helps them more. It's that it allows them to maintain. It has nothing to do with the younger fighters. It's that older fighters can compete for longer.

For #1 let's take BHOP. Let's say he's currently at 80% athletic prime. He's able to compete much better than if he was at 60% of his athletic prime, regardless of competition.

For #2 it helps all fighters equally. But if it allows a fighter to continue fighting at a high level after injuries, it will allow them to compete longer. If good fighters are able compete longer, they can still dominate at an older age.[/quote]

WHY??????????????????

Gumby wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Gumby wrote:

Fighters can maintain their athleticism longer. Great fighters can fight at a high level to an older age. Many of these great fighters have the experience, skill and athleticism to beat younger fighters.

Why is this happening? In no specific order:

1. Enhanced nutrition & training methods - These benefit older fighters more because they allow guys to retain their athleticism. An older fighter can remain athletic enough that his better skill and experience will win out.

2. Enhanced medicine - Injuries can be treated better. Guys can recover faster and stronger. Two examples I used before were Floyd's hands and potentially Yuri's knee. I'm sure there are more.

3. Less wear and tear - The rate at which guys fight today is much lower. It allows fighters to rest their bodies more and fight at an older age.

4. Getting an inferior quality athlete and trainer - Fewer good boxers and trainers. MMA has sprung up recently as another option for guys with fighting talents further drawing from the pool of potential boxers. Athletes in Football, Basketball, Baseball and Soccer are getting paid more and more.

Guys from the 90s still reign supreme. Guys from the 70s and 80s notoriously burned out on drugs and too much too soon in many cases. Good older fighters is a trend that's likely to continue.

There just isn't a SHRED of evidence that numbers 1-2 are true more for older fighters nthan younger ones though, is there?

It's not that it helps them more. It's that it allows them to maintain. It has nothing to do with the younger fighters. It's that older fighters can compete for longer.

For #1 let's take BHOP. Let's say he's currently at 80% athletic prime. He's able to compete much better than if he was at 60% of his athletic prime, regardless of competition.

For #2 it helps all fighters equally. But if it allows a fighter to continue fighting at a high level after injuries, it will allow them to compete longer. If good fighters are able compete longer, they can still dominate at an older age.

Steroids are the big thing to me. Look at Bonds, McGuire, and other older guys we know were on steriods who had their best years at the end of their career. What about them?

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

This piece of research shows the most successful NBA players are actually getting YOUNGER rather than older.

Doesn't the nutrition, medicine, steroids idea apply to the NBA too?

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=571

Thats going to happen though in any sport. But what about the average age?

What are you talking about? it is the REVERSE of what is happening in boxing!

soonermark890 wrote:

Gumby wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Gumby wrote:

Fighters can maintain their athleticism longer. Great fighters can fight at a high level to an older age. Many of these great fighters have the experience, skill and athleticism to beat younger fighters.

Why is this happening? In no specific order:

1. Enhanced nutrition & training methods - These benefit older fighters more because they allow guys to retain their athleticism. An older fighter can remain athletic enough that his better skill and experience will win out.

2. Enhanced medicine - Injuries can be treated better. Guys can recover faster and stronger. Two examples I used before were Floyd's hands and potentially Yuri's knee. I'm sure there are more.

3. Less wear and tear - The rate at which guys fight today is much lower. It allows fighters to rest their bodies more and fight at an older age.

4. Getting an inferior quality athlete and trainer - Fewer good boxers and trainers. MMA has sprung up recently as another option for guys with fighting talents further drawing from the pool of potential boxers. Athletes in Football, Basketball, Baseball and Soccer are getting paid more and more.

Guys from the 90s still reign supreme. Guys from the 70s and 80s notoriously burned out on drugs and too much too soon in many cases. Good older fighters is a trend that's likely to continue.

There just isn't a SHRED of evidence that numbers 1-2 are true more for older fighters nthan younger ones though, is there?

It's not that it helps them more. It's that it allows them to maintain. It has nothing to do with the younger fighters. It's that older fighters can compete for longer.

For #1 let's take BHOP. Let's say he's currently at 80% athletic prime. He's able to compete much better than if he was at 60% of his athletic prime, regardless of competition.

For #2 it helps all fighters equally. But if it allows a fighter to continue fighting at a high level after injuries, it will allow them to compete longer. If good fighters are able compete longer, they can still dominate at an older age.

Steroids are the big thing to me. Look at Bonds, McGuire, and other older guys we know were on steriods who had their best years at the end of their career. What about them?

What about Conseco and Giambi and the rest who were in their twenties? Again, you are making a logistical error. The issue is NOT does it make THE SAME GUY better. It does. The question is why would it make a 35 year old better than a 25 year old when both are doing the same thing?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Um, nope. Wrong on basketball. Ready to quit yet?

There are a lot of basketball players competing at an older age than expected. The sport has had an influx of younger players since drafting rules changed. Imagine if Larry Bird had today's technology to deal with his back like Nash has?

Is your opinion that nutrition and training techniques have not improved in sports? Or just that they do not have an impact on longevity?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

This piece of research shows the most successful NBA players are actually getting YOUNGER rather than older.

Doesn't the nutrition, medicine, steroids idea apply to the NBA too?

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=571

Thats going to happen though in any sport. But what about the average age?

What are you talking about? it is the REVERSE of what is happening in boxing!

To me in a sport like Basketball you need more athleticism than any sport in the world. You were saying that the most successful guys are getting younger. That should happen in that sport. Boxing to me is not like that. Guys like Glen Johnson and B-HOP can lose some of their athletic abilities and still be good. That does not happen in a lot of other sports. But hey I could be wrong about you not needing as much athleticism in boxing as in Basketball I have never been in the ring.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

It's not that it helps them more. It's that it allows them to maintain. It has nothing to do with the younger fighters. It's that older fighters can compete for longer.

For #1 let's take BHOP. Let's say he's currently at 80% athletic prime. He's able to compete much better than if he was at 60% of his athletic prime, regardless of competition.

For #2 it helps all fighters equally. But if it allows a fighter to continue fighting at a high level after injuries, it will allow them to compete longer. If good fighters are able compete longer, they can still dominate at an older age.[/quote]

WHY??????????????????

Because they are still good fighters. Their athleticism has not declined to the point where they are bad fighters.

Gumby wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Um, nope. Wrong on basketball. Ready to quit yet?

There are a lot of basketball players competing at an older age than expected. The sport has had an influx of younger players since drafting rules changed. Imagine if Larry Bird had today's technology to deal with his back like Nash has?

Is your opinion that nutrition and training techniques have not improved in sports? Or just that they do not have an impact on longevity?

I'm becoming more and more convinced by the data I am finding that in man verses man sports all ages benefit approximately equally from that stuff.

Gumby wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

It's not that it helps them more. It's that it allows them to maintain. It has nothing to do with the younger fighters. It's that older fighters can compete for longer.

For #1 let's take BHOP. Let's say he's currently at 80% athletic prime. He's able to compete much better than if he was at 60% of his athletic prime, regardless of competition.

For #2 it helps all fighters equally. But if it allows a fighter to continue fighting at a high level after injuries, it will allow them to compete longer. If good fighters are able compete longer, they can still dominate at an older age.[/quote]

WHY??????????????????

Because they are still good fighters. Their athleticism has not declined to the point where they are bad fighters.

You aren't explaining at all why young fighters aren't measuring up and using their youth to take them out like they have for 100 years. Can't you see that hole in your argument? Your point is "nutrition etc makes older fighters better than they would otherwise have been." That is true, but not relevant. Why? Because they aren't competing with younger fighters who AREN'T doing it. It is common to all ages. So the question is what is the INCREMENTAL factor?

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

This piece of research shows the most successful NBA players are actually getting YOUNGER rather than older.

Doesn't the nutrition, medicine, steroids idea apply to the NBA too?

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=571

Thats going to happen though in any sport. But what about the average age?

What are you talking about? it is the REVERSE of what is happening in boxing!

To me in a sport like Basketball you need more athleticism than any sport in the world. You were saying that the most successful guys are getting younger. That should happen in that sport. Boxing to me is not like that. Guys like Glen Johnson and B-HOP can lose some of their athletic abilities and still be good. That does not happen in a lot of other sports. But hey I could be wrong about you not needing as much athleticism in boxing as in Basketball I have never been in the ring.

Hey, YOU were the guy who proposed basketball as a test case. Now you don't like the result?

[quote="marbleheadmaui"]

soonermark890 wrote:

Gumby wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Gumby wrote:

Fighters can maintain their athleticism longer. Great fighters can fight at a high level to an older age. Many of these great fighters have the experience, skill and athleticism to beat younger fighters.

Why is this happening? In no specific order:

1. Enhanced nutrition & training methods - These benefit older fighters more because they allow guys to retain their athleticism. An older fighter can remain athletic enough that his better skill and experience will win out.

2. Enhanced medicine - Injuries can be treated better. Guys can recover faster and stronger. Two examples I used before were Floyd's hands and potentially Yuri's knee. I'm sure there are more.

3. Less wear and tear - The rate at which guys fight today is much lower. It allows fighters to rest their bodies more and fight at an older age.

4. Getting an inferior quality athlete and trainer - Fewer good boxers and trainers. MMA has sprung up recently as another option for guys with fighting talents further drawing from the pool of potential boxers. Athletes in Football, Basketball, Baseball and Soccer are getting paid more and more.

Guys from the 90s still reign supreme. Guys from the 70s and 80s notoriously burned out on drugs and too much too soon in many cases. Good older fighters is a trend that's likely to continue.

There just isn't a SHRED of evidence that numbers 1-2 are true more for older fighters nthan younger ones though, is there?

It's not that it helps them more. It's that it allows them to maintain. It has nothing to do with the younger fighters. It's that older fighters can compete for longer.

For #1 let's take BHOP. Let's say he's currently at 80% athletic prime. He's able to compete much better than if he was at 60% of his athletic prime, regardless of competition.

For #2 it helps all fighters equally. But if it allows a fighter to continue fighting at a high level after injuries, it will allow them to compete longer. If good fighters are able compete longer, they can still dominate at an older age.

Steroids are the big thing to me. Look at Bonds, McGuire, and other older guys we know were on steriods who had their best years at the end of their career. What about them?

What about Conseco and Giambi and the rest who were in their twenties? Again, you are making a logistical error. The issue is NOT does it make THE SAME GUY better. It does. The question is why would it make a 35 year old better than a 25 year old when both are doing the same thing?[/quote]
The only answer I can think of in that situation is experience. Think about it in a sport like baseball that guy has had way more at bats than the younger guy against the best pitchers in the world. Its like the older guy in boxing having many more fights at a high level of comp. Would that experience not help a ton?

Think about it this way. You take Amir Khan and put him in there with Shane Mosley but you give Mosley his Roids back. Who will win? Mosley is a little slower than Khan. But now Mosley has the roids that give him a little bit more handspeed than when he is off of them and Shane now has the HUGE advantage in experience. I know thats a far fetched example but hey its worth a shot. LOL

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Gumby wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Um, nope. Wrong on basketball. Ready to quit yet?

There are a lot of basketball players competing at an older age than expected. The sport has had an influx of younger players since drafting rules changed. Imagine if Larry Bird had today's technology to deal with his back like Nash has?

Is your opinion that nutrition and training techniques have not improved in sports? Or just that they do not have an impact on longevity?

I'm becoming more and more convinced by the data I am finding that in man verses man sports all ages benefit approximately equally from that stuff.

But if everyone benefits equally, doesn't that explain why guys can compete at a high level for longer? There's a limit to everyone's athletic potential. If you are able to maintain your body closer to that peak for longer, you will continue to win if you are more skilled.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

This piece of research shows the most successful NBA players are actually getting YOUNGER rather than older.

Doesn't the nutrition, medicine, steroids idea apply to the NBA too?

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=571

Thats going to happen though in any sport. But what about the average age?

What are you talking about? it is the REVERSE of what is happening in boxing!

To me in a sport like Basketball you need more athleticism than any sport in the world. You were saying that the most successful guys are getting younger. That should happen in that sport. Boxing to me is not like that. Guys like Glen Johnson and B-HOP can lose some of their athletic abilities and still be good. That does not happen in a lot of other sports. But hey I could be wrong about you not needing as much athleticism in boxing as in Basketball I have never been in the ring.

Hey, YOU were the guy who proposed basketball as a test case. Now you don't like the result?

I kinda brought it up. You said that you were looking up other sports I just took a guess of what I thought might be the case. I just explained the results nothing more.