Franklin's legacy....

In light of the Spider-Griffen fight in which Spider shown himself to be about 10 levels above Griffen, I think I need to change my tune a bit on Franklin.

Yes I knew Spider was great, but in judging Franklin I argued that a fighter cannot be considered a great if he is so seriously outclassed by another fighter, even if that other fighter is clearly a great fighter. But I think Spider is kind of showing himself to be in another dimension of great, otherwordly great. So when we look back to Franklins fights with Spider and we see a guy who was maybe not competitive, but maybe halfway game, and if we combine that with the rest of his resume, his reign as champ, his Wandy win, his razor tight loss to Hendo, another all time great that fell at the hands of spider (and maybe I would be interested in seeing the Hendo Franklin rematch), and the only guys to put an L on Franklins record are Spide Hendo and Machida(though I never like to judge a guys greatness on his losses), perhaps Franklin does need to be included in the great category.

I still tend to think that "great" is too big a label to lay on Franklin, Im still more comfortable with the very good label, but Im not righting off the possibility that he could earn it, and his upcoming bout with Belfort would be another win to put on the great side of the checklist.

I agree with the very good. Wins over Wand (a little late in Wand's career), Okami, Tanner (2x), Shamrock (it was the beginning of the end for Ken), Hamill, and Eastman are good. That is a solid resume, but he still has work to do before he's great.

Beating Belfort would be a big win. He's going to have some big opportunities in the 205 division to gain some respect and raise his status of very good.

I'm really hoping for a win against Belfort. Belfort matches up kinda like Wandy did against him IMO...very aggressive and powerful striker...Rich has to stay on point and pick his shots.

I think it is going to come down to Rich's footwork. When Victor rushes in for the flurry, Rich is going to have to circle and be elusive enough to not get caught with too many big shots. Rich needs to work the kicks and pick his punch through the first couple rounds. Then after Belfort's will is broken(that has always been his biggest undoing) go all out. Take a few more risks, dirty box, and mix in a head kick with the low and leg kicks.

NoRegret wrote:

I'm really hoping for a win against Belfort. Belfort matches up kinda like Wandy did against him IMO...very aggressive and powerful striker...Rich has to stay on point and pick his shots.

But I see Wandy as lacking alot of the aggressiveness(I guess that goes for Belfort as well) and more importanly quickness that he once had.

I was rooting Belfort, just to provide a worthwhile challenger for Spider, but he would have to be damn impressive to make me think he has a shot.

I still say he is the 2nd best MW in the world, I thought that before he fought Hendo and I came away from that fight thinking the same thing.

Remember how out classed Nate Quarry looked against Franklin in their fight? There are certainly levels of greatness. Franklin is in that second tier. Plenty of great fighters in his class. I don't know that Liddell was really that much better than Franklin.

Make Liddell Franklin happen in 2010!

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Remember how out classed Nate Quarry looked against Franklin in their fight? There are certainly levels of greatness. Franklin is in that second tier. Plenty of great fighters in his class. I don't know that Liddell was really that much better than Franklin.

But Liddell's wins over Randy, Tito(embarrassed him), Vitor, Randleman, even Babalu, are much better then Franklin's wins.

Good fighter during a time when the Middelweight division was weak. Very tough but could never win the big fights. If he beats Vitor too me that will be the best win he's ever had. Wandy is WAY past his prime so i just really don't see that as a big win especially considering Wandy was beatin the hell out of him the last round IMO. So right now good but not great however a win over vitor would go a long way.

I'll even say he's a great fighter just not ELITE.

Franklin looked pretty elite to me against Henderson. And he pretty much destroys anyone not named Machida or Anderson.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Franklin looked pretty elite to me against Henderson. And he pretty much destroys anyone not named Machida or Anderson.

If we are going in an Elite>Great>Very Good Format, then I can't put an older Hendo in the elite category. Dude got beat up then choked out by an elite fighter, and also lost to a guy who you have grouped with Jardine and Forrest. And I know it was supertight, but Rich did lost that Hendo fight.

Spider, Fedor is Elite

Hendo's career is Great

Franklin imo, still a notch below great.

I can agree with that.

Hendo is about as high as it goes before it gets to Elite.

Wolfy also makes a good point about how Franklin fights. He's in there to win and throws a punch.

Hendo is elite. His career speaks for itself. Two division Pride champion/default UFC MW champion considering he was the first one to beat Bustamante at MW after he defected to Pride from the UFC. More major tornament wins than anyone else. If Hendo is not elite, then neither is Matt Hughes or Randy Couture or Chuck Liddell or other great champions who stumbled. When Silva and Fedor lose one day I won't say they weren't elite.

and on the point of where I group Rampage, the guys I grouped him with are top of the food chain, and the Page that beat Henderson was the best Rampage to ever fight in a ring or cage. His best performance to date.

Rich is a very smart fighter. Silva does seem to be on another level. I thought Rich damn near beat Hendo, so he can hang with the best of both weight classes, IMO.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Hendo is elite. His career speaks for itself. Two division Pride champion/default UFC MW champion considering he was the first one to beat Bustamante at MW after he defected to Pride from the UFC. More major tornament wins than anyone else. If Hendo is not elite, then neither is Matt Hughes or Randy Couture or Chuck Liddell or other great champions who stumbled. When Silva and Fedor lose one day I won't say they weren't elite.

and on the point of where I group Rampage, the guys I grouped him with are top of the food chain, and the Page that beat Henderson was the best Rampage to ever fight in a ring or cage. His best performance to date.

Hendo's career is definitely Elite and IMO he's the second best Middleweight. I would say he's borderline Elite/Great. I still think he's got a ton of fight left in the tank but he's not quite at the level he was 2 years ago IMO. Again though Franklin looked very good against hendo but he lost. So you can't say a guy is elite because of a "good" loss to an elite fighter.

I dont get how you cant say Rich isnt a great fighter? the dude has done well in multiple weight classes whether it be at MW, or at 195 or even LHW he has always done well against anyone he has fought against with the exception of Spider

How you can say he is not a great fighter is beyond me.

NoRegret wrote:

I dont get how you cant say Rich isnt a great fighter? the dude has done well in multiple weight classes whether it be at MW, or at 195 or even LHW he has always done well against anyone he has fought against with the exception of Spider

How you can say he is not a great fighter is beyond me.

I'm a big fan of Ace but a lot of people look good vs Quarry, Shamrock, and Tanner.

True, but his level of dominance back then EVEN WITH the weight class being weaker back then is still amazing in itself...just because none of the guys he beat were that great...doesnt mean they werent the best competition for him to face back then...thats all there was...and if they werent good they wouldnt have been in the UFC...so yeah

Rich needs to face off against Forrest, Tito, Rashad, Jardine type guys to see where he stands.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Rich needs to face off against Forrest, Tito, Rashad, Jardine type guys to see where he stands.

I agree, but he has faced Hendo & Wand so he seems about on par with those guys.

yeah I agree Wolfy.


You guys gotta admit he's one of the most popular and most well liked fighters in the UFC though.