BOXING MYTHS

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

Boxing Myths.

1. Ali was going to quit against Joe Frazier in their 3rd fight. Frazier fought the most courageous fight I ever saw, however do you think Ali would quit against Joe after having his best round ever against him? I'm convinced the falling out at the end of the fight was relief. He would've had the same reaction had Joe quit after the 13th round.

2. Ray Leonard stole a decision against Marvin Hagler. Ray was always stronger than anyone gave him credit for. Hagler wasn't coming in with abandon because he knew this. The punches Ray was hitting Hagler with in the first 4 rounds sounded off throughout the whole arena. During this action, Larry Merchant states "Just because Ray's punches sound off better doesn't mean their harder than Haglers." Do I have an experiment for this genius. Hit the table in front of you with a closed fist. Now hit it harder. Notice the 2nd blow sounds louder than the first? If you do, give yourself 2 points on the IQ test. Leonard was punching Hagler with a closed glove, not slapping him. The punches sounded off because they were hard. Hagler has the greatest pain threshold of any fighter I've ever seen. That's why he reacted well. Also, for you gym rats who know Hagler won the fight, listen to the commentary by Gil Clancy, one of the most knowledgeable trainers in the history of our sport. Don't take my word for it, check out the action on You Tube.

3. Billy Conn was responsible for his own demise against Joe Louis: Conn was winning his fight against Joe Louis decisively for 11 rounds. Nevertheless, I've never seen a fighter with the capacity to concentrate like Joe Louis. In 25 title defenses, I never saw him express any type of emotion. Joe goaded Conn in. This started in the 12th round with Joe giving Conn the illusion he was on his way out. In the 13th, Conn took the bait and was knocked out. It's called playing Possum. Men who are power savants can do this type of thing. (See Foreman vs. Moore.)

4. Julio Chavez was the greatest Mexican boxer ever. The greatest Mexican fighter ever is able to fight all styles. Salvador Sanchez showed this ability. Chavez was lost when fighting slick boxers.

5. Evander Holyfield was a clean fighter. Gentleman? Of course. All time Great? Sure. Class act? Definitely.... and one of the dirtiest fighters in history. Evander had the most powerful one two punch this writer has ever seen. It started with a left hook, however that was just a fake for the giant, rock, diamond head that was about to crash in the corner of your eye with all Evander's weight behind it. Following through a left hook fake with the best head butt I've ever seen is a work of evil genius. Couldn't do it against taller men but it worked like a charm against men his height or shorter.

6. Lennox Lewis won the 2nd Holyfield fight. Sorry guys, the announcers at HBO had too much influence over the judges. They scored the 2nd fight the way they thought the first fight should've been scored. By the way, I had the 1st fight a draw. Lewis stopped fighting after round 8 and though he was ahead 4 points on my card, gave them all up.

Chavez was lost when fighting slick boxers? He damn near killed Meldrick, hammered the hell out of Hector Camacho and destroyed Roger Mayweather.

Ha, ha, finally I can defend my little boxing myth list. Camacho was finished. If he took on a pre Rosario, Camacho I'd agree with you. Meldrick was not a standard, stiff European type fighter but he was not what I'd call a mover. Movers hit without getting hit. Meldrick wanted to be Joe Frazier. I don't consider Roger M. in the same class as Julio. Julio was a great fighter, but his inability to fight slick fighters was exposed by Pernell Whitiker.

Well wait a gosh darned minute. If your standard is Sweet Pea what the hell does the entire comment mean?

I mean that's like saying he couldn't hit a Nolan Ryan fastball. It may be true but since there are very few guys with that fastball it's not very important is it? I mean how about Ruben Castillo or John Duplessis or Terence Ali?

BTW that's a great description of Meldrick "He wanted to be Joe Frazier."

Thanks for comment on Meldrick. As for Whitiker, I was 100 percent sure this would be your comeback. Sure, Pernell was an ATG and the slickest of the slick. But Chavez is held to a very high standard. If Basilio got to Robinson, Mildenberger got to Ali, Hearns got to Benitez, then Chavez should've been able to get to Whitiker. Sure, nobody can hit a Nolan Ryan fastball, but if Sammy Sosa steps up to the plate, we want that ball hit. As far as durable fighters are concerned, Chavez is at the top of the HOF fighters. No excuses for him, Marble. He's supposed to be able to solve any style minus Tommy Hearns (which would've been a nightmare for him.). Match Chavez up against Benitez and he's supposed to win, given his reputation. He's in a certain class of fighters and he's judged by that class.

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

Boxing Myths.

1. Ali was going to quit against Joe Frazier in their 3rd fight. Frazier fought the most courageous fight I ever saw, however do you think Ali would quit against Joe after having his best round ever against him? I'm convinced the falling out at the end of the fight was relief. He would've had the same reaction had Joe quit after the 13th round.

2. Ray Leonard stole a decision against Marvin Hagler. Ray was always stronger than anyone gave him credit for. Hagler wasn't coming in with abandon because he knew this. The punches Ray was hitting Hagler with in the first 4 rounds sounded off throughout the whole arena. During this action, Larry Merchant states "Just because Ray's punches sound off better doesn't mean their harder than Haglers." Do I have an experiment for this genius. Hit the table in front of you with a closed fist. Now hit it harder. Notice the 2nd blow sounds louder than the first? If you do, give yourself 2 points on the IQ test. Leonard was punching Hagler with a closed glove, not slapping him. The punches sounded off because they were hard. Hagler has the greatest pain threshold of any fighter I've ever seen. That's why he reacted well. Also, for you gym rats who know Hagler won the fight, listen to the commentary by Gil Clancy, one of the most knowledgeable trainers in the history of our sport. Don't take my word for it, check out the action on You Tube.

3. Billy Conn was responsible for his own demise against Joe Louis: Conn was winning his fight against Joe Louis decisively for 11 rounds. Nevertheless, I've never seen a fighter with the capacity to concentrate like Joe Louis. In 25 title defenses, I never saw him express any type of emotion. Joe goaded Conn in. This started in the 12th round with Joe giving Conn the illusion he was on his way out. In the 13th, Conn took the bait and was knocked out. It's called playing Possum. Men who are power savants can do this type of thing. (See Foreman vs. Moore.)

4. Julio Chavez was the greatest Mexican boxer ever. The greatest Mexican fighter ever is able to fight all styles. Salvador Sanchez showed this ability. Chavez was lost when fighting slick boxers.

5. Evander Holyfield was a clean fighter. Gentleman? Of course. All time Great? Sure. Class act? Definitely.... and one of the dirtiest fighters in history. Evander had the most powerful one two punch this writer has ever seen. It started with a left hook, however that was just a fake for the giant, rock, diamond head that was about to crash in the corner of your eye with all Evander's weight behind it. Following through a left hook fake with the best head butt I've ever seen is a work of evil genius. Couldn't do it against taller men but it worked like a charm against men his height or shorter.

6. Lennox Lewis won the 2nd Holyfield fight. Sorry guys, the announcers at HBO had too much influence over the judges. They scored the 2nd fight the way they thought the first fight should've been scored. By the way, I had the 1st fight a draw. Lewis stopped fighting after round 8 and though he was ahead 4 points on my card, gave them all up.

Chavez was lost when fighting slick boxers? He damn near killed Meldrick, hammered the hell out of Hector Camacho and destroyed Roger Mayweather.

Ha, ha, finally I can defend my little boxing myth list. Camacho was finished. If he took on a pre Rosario, Camacho I'd agree with you. Meldrick was not a standard, stiff European type fighter but he was not what I'd call a mover. Movers hit without getting hit. Meldrick wanted to be Joe Frazier. I don't consider Roger M. in the same class as Julio. Julio was a great fighter, but his inability to fight slick fighters was exposed by Pernell Whitiker.

Well wait a gosh darned minute. If your standard is Sweet Pea what the hell does the entire comment mean?

I mean that's like saying he couldn't hit a Nolan Ryan fastball. It may be true but since there are very few guys with that fastball it's not very important is it? I mean how about Ruben Castillo or John Duplessis or Terence Ali?

BTW that's a great description of Meldrick "He wanted to be Joe Frazier."

Thanks for comment on Meldrick. As for Whitiker, I was 100 percent sure this would be your comeback. Sure, Pernell was an ATG and the slickest of the slick. But Chavez is held to a very high standard. If Basilio got to Robinson, Mildenberger got to Ali, Hearns got to Benitez, then Chavez should've been able to get to Whitiker. Sure, nobody can hit a Nolan Ryan fastball, but if Sammy Sosa steps up to the plate, we want that ball hit. As far as durable fighters are concerned, Chavez is at the top of the HOF fighters. No excuses for him, Marble. He's supposed to be able to solve any style minus Tommy Hearns (which would've been a nightmare for him.). Match Chavez up against Benitez and he's supposed to win, given his reputation. He's in a certain class of fighters and he's judged by that class.

VERY nice counter. But I'm not making excuses. Had you said Chavez couldn't handle the greatest of the great, slickest of the slick level fighters I'd have agreed. But to say one is ONLY slick if they are the slickest of the slick seems like a real stretch. We can agree I think Sweet Pea was the superior fighter...but all that means is that Julio, like almost everyone else, wasn't one of the 15-20 or so guys better than Sweet Pea. Doesn't do much to place him in context. The better description is I think would be to say "Chavez destroyed all but the slickest of the slick slick fighters. The top of the foodchain slick fighters, Sweet Pea, Pep, Ali, Burley, would have been, on a p4p basis, beyond him" Accurate I think and more useful.

To get picky, Basilio got to a 356 year old post retirement Robinson, Mildenburger never got to Ali, Heanrs Benitez is a good example though.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

Boxing Myths.

1. Ali was going to quit against Joe Frazier in their 3rd fight. Frazier fought the most courageous fight I ever saw, however do you think Ali would quit against Joe after having his best round ever against him? I'm convinced the falling out at the end of the fight was relief. He would've had the same reaction had Joe quit after the 13th round.

2. Ray Leonard stole a decision against Marvin Hagler. Ray was always stronger than anyone gave him credit for. Hagler wasn't coming in with abandon because he knew this. The punches Ray was hitting Hagler with in the first 4 rounds sounded off throughout the whole arena. During this action, Larry Merchant states "Just because Ray's punches sound off better doesn't mean their harder than Haglers." Do I have an experiment for this genius. Hit the table in front of you with a closed fist. Now hit it harder. Notice the 2nd blow sounds louder than the first? If you do, give yourself 2 points on the IQ test. Leonard was punching Hagler with a closed glove, not slapping him. The punches sounded off because they were hard. Hagler has the greatest pain threshold of any fighter I've ever seen. That's why he reacted well. Also, for you gym rats who know Hagler won the fight, listen to the commentary by Gil Clancy, one of the most knowledgeable trainers in the history of our sport. Don't take my word for it, check out the action on You Tube.

3. Billy Conn was responsible for his own demise against Joe Louis: Conn was winning his fight against Joe Louis decisively for 11 rounds. Nevertheless, I've never seen a fighter with the capacity to concentrate like Joe Louis. In 25 title defenses, I never saw him express any type of emotion. Joe goaded Conn in. This started in the 12th round with Joe giving Conn the illusion he was on his way out. In the 13th, Conn took the bait and was knocked out. It's called playing Possum. Men who are power savants can do this type of thing. (See Foreman vs. Moore.)

4. Julio Chavez was the greatest Mexican boxer ever. The greatest Mexican fighter ever is able to fight all styles. Salvador Sanchez showed this ability. Chavez was lost when fighting slick boxers.

5. Evander Holyfield was a clean fighter. Gentleman? Of course. All time Great? Sure. Class act? Definitely.... and one of the dirtiest fighters in history. Evander had the most powerful one two punch this writer has ever seen. It started with a left hook, however that was just a fake for the giant, rock, diamond head that was about to crash in the corner of your eye with all Evander's weight behind it. Following through a left hook fake with the best head butt I've ever seen is a work of evil genius. Couldn't do it against taller men but it worked like a charm against men his height or shorter.

6. Lennox Lewis won the 2nd Holyfield fight. Sorry guys, the announcers at HBO had too much influence over the judges. They scored the 2nd fight the way they thought the first fight should've been scored. By the way, I had the 1st fight a draw. Lewis stopped fighting after round 8 and though he was ahead 4 points on my card, gave them all up.

Chavez was lost when fighting slick boxers? He damn near killed Meldrick, hammered the hell out of Hector Camacho and destroyed Roger Mayweather.

Ha, ha, finally I can defend my little boxing myth list. Camacho was finished. If he took on a pre Rosario, Camacho I'd agree with you. Meldrick was not a standard, stiff European type fighter but he was not what I'd call a mover. Movers hit without getting hit. Meldrick wanted to be Joe Frazier. I don't consider Roger M. in the same class as Julio. Julio was a great fighter, but his inability to fight slick fighters was exposed by Pernell Whitiker.

Well wait a gosh darned minute. If your standard is Sweet Pea what the hell does the entire comment mean?

I mean that's like saying he couldn't hit a Nolan Ryan fastball. It may be true but since there are very few guys with that fastball it's not very important is it? I mean how about Ruben Castillo or John Duplessis or Terence Ali?

BTW that's a great description of Meldrick "He wanted to be Joe Frazier."

Thanks for comment on Meldrick. As for Whitiker, I was 100 percent sure this would be your comeback. Sure, Pernell was an ATG and the slickest of the slick. But Chavez is held to a very high standard. If Basilio got to Robinson, Mildenberger got to Ali, Hearns got to Benitez, then Chavez should've been able to get to Whitiker. Sure, nobody can hit a Nolan Ryan fastball, but if Sammy Sosa steps up to the plate, we want that ball hit. As far as durable fighters are concerned, Chavez is at the top of the HOF fighters. No excuses for him, Marble. He's supposed to be able to solve any style minus Tommy Hearns (which would've been a nightmare for him.). Match Chavez up against Benitez and he's supposed to win, given his reputation. He's in a certain class of fighters and he's judged by that class.

VERY nice counter. But I'm not making excuses. Had you said Chavez couldn't handle the greatest of the great, slickest of the slick level fighters I'd have agreed. But to say one is ONLY slick if they are the slickest of the slick seems like a real stretch. We can agree I think Sweet Pea was the superior fighter...but all that means is that Julio, like almost everyone else, wasn't one of the 15-20 or so guys better than Sweet Pea. Doesn't do much to place him in context. The better description is I think would be to say "Chavez destroyed all but the slickest of the slick slick fighters. The top of the foodchain slick fighters, Sweet Pea, Pep, Ali, Burley, would have been, on a p4p basis, beyond him" Accurate I think and more useful.

To get picky, Basilio got to a 356 year old post retirement Robinson, Mildenburger never got to Ali, Heanrs Benitez is a good example though.

I agree with your assessment. Karl gave Ali one of his toughest fights. I'm not saying he fought a "Thriller in Manilla" fight, but this was the invisible man he was fighting against. Give him some credit. LOL

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

Boxing Myths.

1. Ali was going to quit against Joe Frazier in their 3rd fight. Frazier fought the most courageous fight I ever saw, however do you think Ali would quit against Joe after having his best round ever against him? I'm convinced the falling out at the end of the fight was relief. He would've had the same reaction had Joe quit after the 13th round.

2. Ray Leonard stole a decision against Marvin Hagler. Ray was always stronger than anyone gave him credit for. Hagler wasn't coming in with abandon because he knew this. The punches Ray was hitting Hagler with in the first 4 rounds sounded off throughout the whole arena. During this action, Larry Merchant states "Just because Ray's punches sound off better doesn't mean their harder than Haglers." Do I have an experiment for this genius. Hit the table in front of you with a closed fist. Now hit it harder. Notice the 2nd blow sounds louder than the first? If you do, give yourself 2 points on the IQ test. Leonard was punching Hagler with a closed glove, not slapping him. The punches sounded off because they were hard. Hagler has the greatest pain threshold of any fighter I've ever seen. That's why he reacted well. Also, for you gym rats who know Hagler won the fight, listen to the commentary by Gil Clancy, one of the most knowledgeable trainers in the history of our sport. Don't take my word for it, check out the action on You Tube.

3. Billy Conn was responsible for his own demise against Joe Louis: Conn was winning his fight against Joe Louis decisively for 11 rounds. Nevertheless, I've never seen a fighter with the capacity to concentrate like Joe Louis. In 25 title defenses, I never saw him express any type of emotion. Joe goaded Conn in. This started in the 12th round with Joe giving Conn the illusion he was on his way out. In the 13th, Conn took the bait and was knocked out. It's called playing Possum. Men who are power savants can do this type of thing. (See Foreman vs. Moore.)

4. Julio Chavez was the greatest Mexican boxer ever. The greatest Mexican fighter ever is able to fight all styles. Salvador Sanchez showed this ability. Chavez was lost when fighting slick boxers.

5. Evander Holyfield was a clean fighter. Gentleman? Of course. All time Great? Sure. Class act? Definitely.... and one of the dirtiest fighters in history. Evander had the most powerful one two punch this writer has ever seen. It started with a left hook, however that was just a fake for the giant, rock, diamond head that was about to crash in the corner of your eye with all Evander's weight behind it. Following through a left hook fake with the best head butt I've ever seen is a work of evil genius. Couldn't do it against taller men but it worked like a charm against men his height or shorter.

6. Lennox Lewis won the 2nd Holyfield fight. Sorry guys, the announcers at HBO had too much influence over the judges. They scored the 2nd fight the way they thought the first fight should've been scored. By the way, I had the 1st fight a draw. Lewis stopped fighting after round 8 and though he was ahead 4 points on my card, gave them all up.

Chavez was lost when fighting slick boxers? He damn near killed Meldrick, hammered the hell out of Hector Camacho and destroyed Roger Mayweather.

Ha, ha, finally I can defend my little boxing myth list. Camacho was finished. If he took on a pre Rosario, Camacho I'd agree with you. Meldrick was not a standard, stiff European type fighter but he was not what I'd call a mover. Movers hit without getting hit. Meldrick wanted to be Joe Frazier. I don't consider Roger M. in the same class as Julio. Julio was a great fighter, but his inability to fight slick fighters was exposed by Pernell Whitiker.

Well wait a gosh darned minute. If your standard is Sweet Pea what the hell does the entire comment mean?

I mean that's like saying he couldn't hit a Nolan Ryan fastball. It may be true but since there are very few guys with that fastball it's not very important is it? I mean how about Ruben Castillo or John Duplessis or Terence Ali?

BTW that's a great description of Meldrick "He wanted to be Joe Frazier."

Thanks for comment on Meldrick. As for Whitiker, I was 100 percent sure this would be your comeback. Sure, Pernell was an ATG and the slickest of the slick. But Chavez is held to a very high standard. If Basilio got to Robinson, Mildenberger got to Ali, Hearns got to Benitez, then Chavez should've been able to get to Whitiker. Sure, nobody can hit a Nolan Ryan fastball, but if Sammy Sosa steps up to the plate, we want that ball hit. As far as durable fighters are concerned, Chavez is at the top of the HOF fighters. No excuses for him, Marble. He's supposed to be able to solve any style minus Tommy Hearns (which would've been a nightmare for him.). Match Chavez up against Benitez and he's supposed to win, given his reputation. He's in a certain class of fighters and he's judged by that class.

VERY nice counter. But I'm not making excuses. Had you said Chavez couldn't handle the greatest of the great, slickest of the slick level fighters I'd have agreed. But to say one is ONLY slick if they are the slickest of the slick seems like a real stretch. We can agree I think Sweet Pea was the superior fighter...but all that means is that Julio, like almost everyone else, wasn't one of the 15-20 or so guys better than Sweet Pea. Doesn't do much to place him in context. The better description is I think would be to say "Chavez destroyed all but the slickest of the slick slick fighters. The top of the foodchain slick fighters, Sweet Pea, Pep, Ali, Burley, would have been, on a p4p basis, beyond him" Accurate I think and more useful.

To get picky, Basilio got to a 356 year old post retirement Robinson, Mildenburger never got to Ali, Heanrs Benitez is a good example though.

I agree with your assessment. Karl gave Ali one of his toughest fights. I'm not saying he fought a "Thriller in Manilla" fight, but this was the invisible man he was fighting against. Give him some credit. LOL

Damn, an actual agreement? What happens now?

Birdofthad wrote:

FLoyd Mayweather Jr wont fight anybody

Pernell WHitaker was high on cocaine when he fought (he only failed 1 post fight drug test vs Pastraneov or whatever his name was)

Floyd fights people just not great WW in their prime. LOL

Sorry again.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

4445Frank wrote:

Boxing Myths.

1. Ali was going to quit against Joe Frazier in their 3rd fight. Frazier fought the most courageous fight I ever saw, however do you think Ali would quit against Joe after having his best round ever against him? I'm convinced the falling out at the end of the fight was relief. He would've had the same reaction had Joe quit after the 13th round.

2. Ray Leonard stole a decision against Marvin Hagler. Ray was always stronger than anyone gave him credit for. Hagler wasn't coming in with abandon because he knew this. The punches Ray was hitting Hagler with in the first 4 rounds sounded off throughout the whole arena. During this action, Larry Merchant states "Just because Ray's punches sound off better doesn't mean their harder than Haglers." Do I have an experiment for this genius. Hit the table in front of you with a closed fist. Now hit it harder. Notice the 2nd blow sounds louder than the first? If you do, give yourself 2 points on the IQ test. Leonard was punching Hagler with a closed glove, not slapping him. The punches sounded off because they were hard. Hagler has the greatest pain threshold of any fighter I've ever seen. That's why he reacted well. Also, for you gym rats who know Hagler won the fight, listen to the commentary by Gil Clancy, one of the most knowledgeable trainers in the history of our sport. Don't take my word for it, check out the action on You Tube.

3. Billy Conn was responsible for his own demise against Joe Louis: Conn was winning his fight against Joe Louis decisively for 11 rounds. Nevertheless, I've never seen a fighter with the capacity to concentrate like Joe Louis. In 25 title defenses, I never saw him express any type of emotion. Joe goaded Conn in. This started in the 12th round with Joe giving Conn the illusion he was on his way out. In the 13th, Conn took the bait and was knocked out. It's called playing Possum. Men who are power savants can do this type of thing. (See Foreman vs. Moore.)

4. Julio Chavez was the greatest Mexican boxer ever. The greatest Mexican fighter ever is able to fight all styles. Salvador Sanchez showed this ability. Chavez was lost when fighting slick boxers.

5. Evander Holyfield was a clean fighter. Gentleman? Of course. All time Great? Sure. Class act? Definitely.... and one of the dirtiest fighters in history. Evander had the most powerful one two punch this writer has ever seen. It started with a left hook, however that was just a fake for the giant, rock, diamond head that was about to crash in the corner of your eye with all Evander's weight behind it. Following through a left hook fake with the best head butt I've ever seen is a work of evil genius. Couldn't do it against taller men but it worked like a charm against men his height or shorter.

6. Lennox Lewis won the 2nd Holyfield fight. Sorry guys, the announcers at HBO had too much influence over the judges. They scored the 2nd fight the way they thought the first fight should've been scored. By the way, I had the 1st fight a draw. Lewis stopped fighting after round 8 and though he was ahead 4 points on my card, gave them all up.

Chavez was lost when fighting slick boxers? He damn near killed Meldrick, hammered the hell out of Hector Camacho and destroyed Roger Mayweather.

Ha, ha, finally I can defend my little boxing myth list. Camacho was finished. If he took on a pre Rosario, Camacho I'd agree with you. Meldrick was not a standard, stiff European type fighter but he was not what I'd call a mover. Movers hit without getting hit. Meldrick wanted to be Joe Frazier. I don't consider Roger M. in the same class as Julio. Julio was a great fighter, but his inability to fight slick fighters was exposed by Pernell Whitiker.

Well wait a gosh darned minute. If your standard is Sweet Pea what the hell does the entire comment mean?

I mean that's like saying he couldn't hit a Nolan Ryan fastball. It may be true but since there are very few guys with that fastball it's not very important is it? I mean how about Ruben Castillo or John Duplessis or Terence Ali?

BTW that's a great description of Meldrick "He wanted to be Joe Frazier."

Thanks for comment on Meldrick. As for Whitiker, I was 100 percent sure this would be your comeback. Sure, Pernell was an ATG and the slickest of the slick. But Chavez is held to a very high standard. If Basilio got to Robinson, Mildenberger got to Ali, Hearns got to Benitez, then Chavez should've been able to get to Whitiker. Sure, nobody can hit a Nolan Ryan fastball, but if Sammy Sosa steps up to the plate, we want that ball hit. As far as durable fighters are concerned, Chavez is at the top of the HOF fighters. No excuses for him, Marble. He's supposed to be able to solve any style minus Tommy Hearns (which would've been a nightmare for him.). Match Chavez up against Benitez and he's supposed to win, given his reputation. He's in a certain class of fighters and he's judged by that class.

VERY nice counter. But I'm not making excuses. Had you said Chavez couldn't handle the greatest of the great, slickest of the slick level fighters I'd have agreed. But to say one is ONLY slick if they are the slickest of the slick seems like a real stretch. We can agree I think Sweet Pea was the superior fighter...but all that means is that Julio, like almost everyone else, wasn't one of the 15-20 or so guys better than Sweet Pea. Doesn't do much to place him in context. The better description is I think would be to say "Chavez destroyed all but the slickest of the slick slick fighters. The top of the foodchain slick fighters, Sweet Pea, Pep, Ali, Burley, would have been, on a p4p basis, beyond him" Accurate I think and more useful.

To get picky, Basilio got to a 356 year old post retirement Robinson, Mildenburger never got to Ali, Heanrs Benitez is a good example though.

I agree with your assessment. Karl gave Ali one of his toughest fights. I'm not saying he fought a "Thriller in Manilla" fight, but this was the invisible man he was fighting against. Give him some credit. LOL

Damn, an actual agreement? What happens now?

LOL. Actually, our history is one of agreement.

Just a few general comments on many posts, thus I didnt use quotes.

Evander Holyfield was NOT a dirty fighter. He was just a wiley one. He never intentionally headbutted anyone. In fact, most of the "headbutts' were caused by an opponent who didnt know how to keep he head behind his stance. (Tyson) who lunged in with punches and gave Evander the perfect "non-intentional" headbutt opportunity. You can force a guy to take a punch or try to pull way from a punch. If he wants to duck his head under it, he can. Thats what Evander did better than anyone. If the head stays there and the other guys momentum plants his face on the scalp, whos fault is that REALLY?

Holyfield DID beat Lewis in the re-match and I credit him with that win. To me, it was as big a scoing travesty as the first fight. Holyfield (and I posted this before as Marble can attribute) was tabbed the winner by 16 of 19 ringside journalists. he outjabbed Lewis for most of the fight, he hurt Lewis on several occasions, he landed more punches and he controlled the fight.

Ray Leonard was always over-looked as a puncher in much the same way Pernel Whitakers toughness and durability was over-looked. It was always there, but his other gifts outshone it to the point it was often over-looked. That said, Leonard didnt win because he out-punched or out-fought Hagler (he didnt do either). He STOLE the fight with smoke and mirrors and the help of criminally inept Jose Guerra. Father time gave him a boost too. Hagler was ring-worn and aging much faster than the well cared for Leonard.

I dont think its a myth that Ali was ready to quit vs Joe Frazier. I have heard both Dundee and Pacheco say that Ali said words to the effect of im dying, its over. Both men say Dundee convinced ALi to continue. I also had Eddie Futch once say that he would never have allowed Frazier to go out for the next round, but if he had it all to do over again, he would tell Joe to stand up a minute early and start shadow boxing and jumping around in the corner like he could not WAIT to get back to the action. He thought that little display might have been enough to push Ali into quiting. Who knows, maybe it would have been.

I agree that Hearns did not have a weak chin. He just had an average one. He lacked recuperative powers though. Certain fighters have always amazed me by how they could recover from the brink of a KO defeat in mere seconds and be back on top by rounds end. Holyfield was one. Mayweather vs Mosley was another. Hearns was never that guy.............

lawyer you just proved the point that ali was indeed READY to as was going to quit .im dying its over.then dundee has to convince him to go on..of course there was no next round but if you have to talk someone into continue fighting means exactly ali wanted to quit.so its no myth is a reality.

I just have one thought.

I keep seeing Bernard and old.

That isn't his fault. He is old but he was hanging with the young guys. Blame the guys that aren't taking him out.