Ring with Japan rules vs. Cage with American rules

I'm sure this debate has come up a million times before and it's coming up again.

I was watching a Nick Diaz interview with Ariel Helwani and Ariel asked him about his upcoming bout with Mach and the difference fight over there than over here. Through mostly incoherent speech, ya knows, whatever, and awkward pauses Diaz offered an interesting point saying that the fight in a ring is more technical and an actual fight while the cage is more like a ballgame. It's a completely different sport as far as he's concerned..which i think he meant people are trying to point grub rather than actually fight in the cage...which i narrowed down to WRESTLERS.

He's right. I think the cage and american rules plays too much to wrestlers and big guys who want to outpoint everybody. How many "wrestlers" have had success in the ring but not nearly as much as they have had in the cage and within american rules. In the ring under Japn rules, They take your money if you lay n pray and they put almost no ephasis on takdowns..so wrestlers are pretty much forced to evolve an entire game or they stay broke and don't have success which i think a lot of these wrestlers in american MMA would struggle in the Pride days or maybe even post apocolyptic Japanese MMA unless they took the Rampage Jackson , Dan Henderson, Frank Shamrock route and evolved their whole game.

Randy Couture is 3-3 in a ring with losses to guys he would never lose to in a cage. Where as a technical striker like Andrei Arlovski looked the best he ever had fighting in a ring.

Not saying wrestlers don't have success in a ring because Henderson had a lot of success and the catch wrestlers like the Shamrocks and Barnett can go but MMA in a ring plays more to the rest of MMA while the cage is way more of an advantage to one form of martial arts and can somewhat hamper most stand up fighters while giving wrestlers the edge and they mainly want to win by points.

I just think that a lot of wrestlers in American MMA have success in a cage that they would not experience fighting in a ring. If the takedown attempt gets to the ropes and that guy is not down...the ref is breaking you up and you got to stand and bang untill your next shoot. In the states, you can push for a takedown the entire fuckin round.

I prefer the ring and Pride rules myself...and japanese judging.

thoughts?

IMO Rings sucks. The ropes just get in the way and save people by letting the hide behind them on the ground and avoid strikers when they get backed into a wall.

I'm with you. I like PRIDE rules. Always have. Makes for a wide open fight IMO. I think in the cage, fighters "game plan" too much. And by "game plan", I mean hug someone to death.

You're right about a fight in a cage being about points. I've always hated pointless takedowns being counted for points. Standup guys would shoot for takedowns with 10 seconds to go in a round just to rack up points.

In Japan everything done was a means to an end. Not saying Japan was perfect, they had their share of questionable bullshit but this UFC judging takes the cake.

Ring naturally puts wrestlers at a disadvantage

Farmer1906 wrote:

IMO Rings sucks. The ropes just get in the way and save people by letting the hide behind them on the ground and avoid strikers when they get backed into a wall.

Wresting guy doesn't like rings. Shocking

















jk

ohiovol62 wrote:

Farmer1906 wrote:

IMO Rings sucks. The ropes just get in the way and save people by letting the hide behind them on the ground and avoid strikers when they get backed into a wall.

Wresting guy doesn't like rings. Shocking

















jk

I'm a wrestling guy?

tolivendiewithLA wrote:

Ring naturally puts wrestlers at a disadvantage

Don't know if it puts them at a disadvantage, I just think it makes one-dimentional wrestlers have to anwser for their weaknesses. Hendo did fine in a ring. Sonnen wouldn't

Farmer1906 wrote:

ohiovol62 wrote:

Farmer1906 wrote:

IMO Rings sucks. The ropes just get in the way and save people by letting the hide behind them on the ground and avoid strikers when they get backed into a wall.

Wresting guy doesn't like rings. Shocking

















jk

I'm a wrestling guy?

Idk.

You like Hughes and the other day you said something to the effect of Wrestling > all martial arts when talking about the gegard vs Mo fight. I did say jk though

Yeah, a ring puts a one dimensional wrestler at a disadvantage. If you can take somebody down where they stand and establish great position and do damage...like Barnett, Hendo and Rampage could on a consistant basis..you have success. If you can also stand and bang...you have success.

but if you are american collegiate wrestler #245 who shoots for a takedown right away that ends up against the cage, you dont get the next 5 minutes to complete one takedown and get awarded for it by the judges in the ring. They break you up and you have to fight for realz or lose money.

ohiovol62 wrote:

Farmer1906 wrote:

ohiovol62 wrote:

Farmer1906 wrote:

IMO Rings sucks. The ropes just get in the way and save people by letting the hide behind them on the ground and avoid strikers when they get backed into a wall.

Wresting guy doesn't like rings. Shocking

















jk

I'm a wrestling guy?

Idk.

You like Hughes and the other day you said something to the effect of Wrestling > all martial arts when talking about the gegard vs Mo fight. I did say jk though

I think Wolf said that...and in the states, he is right. Wrestling rules American MMA.

KingsOwn19 wrote:

ohiovol62 wrote:

Farmer1906 wrote:

ohiovol62 wrote:

Farmer1906 wrote:

IMO Rings sucks. The ropes just get in the way and save people by letting the hide behind them on the ground and avoid strikers when they get backed into a wall.

Wresting guy doesn't like rings. Shocking

















jk

I'm a wrestling guy?

Idk.

You like Hughes and the other day you said something to the effect of Wrestling > all martial arts when talking about the gegard vs Mo fight. I did say jk though

I think Wolf said that...and in the states, he is right. Wrestling rules American MMA.

Oh shit. My bad Farmer

I am tired of seeing "control" wins..

Then lets just say fuck it, fight to the finish

I don't know if I agree with the assesment that wrestling rules american MMA. Machida is a champ here. Shogun would be a champ if Machida wasn't around. Spider is a champ here. Aldo isn't a wrestler.

And I think it's short sided to call GSP a wrestler. He's a little of everything. GSP actually does something with his takedowns. He goes for Subs, he has Decent GnP.

In fact the only division dominated by wrestlers is HW, and I contend that we still don't know how good that division is yet because of all the prospects in the top ten without quality wins.

ohiovol62 wrote:

Farmer1906 wrote:

ohiovol62 wrote:

Farmer1906 wrote:

IMO Rings sucks. The ropes just get in the way and save people by letting the hide behind them on the ground and avoid strikers when they get backed into a wall.

Wresting guy doesn't like rings. Shocking

















jk

I'm a wrestling guy?

Idk.

You like Hughes and the other day you said something to the effect of Wrestling > all martial arts when talking about the gegard vs Mo fight. I did say jk though

I see what you're saying.

I actually train mostly BJJ with MT & takedowns mixed in.

Anyway rings still suck for wrestlers or not. They get in the way and prevent action. Now if you don't like a wrestler working on a takedown the who time then blame the refs not breaking it up or other fighter for not spotting it.

ohiovol62 wrote:

I don't know if I agree with the assesment that wrestling rules american MMA. Machida is a champ here. Shogun would be a champ if Machida wasn't around. Spider is a champ here. Aldo isn't a wrestler.

And I think it's short sided to call GSP a wrestler. He's a little of everything. GSP actually does something with his takedowns. He goes for Subs, he has Decent GnP.

In fact the only division dominated by wrestlers is HW, and I contend that we still don't know how good that division is yet because of all the prospects in the top ten without quality wins.

Yeah .. GSP fucked Hardy up last fight.

(couldnt find a post fight picture.. but this one should do cuz it would be the same)

i think all mma should be in a cage. If the general public is gonna refer to them as cage fighters, they might as well fight in a cage.

and we've all seen plent of good brawls in the cage. as for it helping wrestlers, i guess, but you can also use the cage to help you get back to your feet too.

GSP has become mainly a wrestler but he's not really the example of what im saying. He would still be great in the ring because he can finish fights and stand...plus, his takedowns are so strong and efficient that the ropes would not factor in unless he was facing somebody like BJ who can resist takedowns for a long time.

I'm thinking of guys like Rashad Evans and the slew of all these up and comers in each division who win with "control"

When i say that wrestling rules american MMA i mean through the cage and the judging. In Japan, it's possible Thiago Silva and Gegard Mousasi both get decisions in their last bouts...and possibly finish the fights after multiple stand ups.

Also, if Brandon Vera and Randy Couture took place in a ring. Couture would have got DESTROYED.

You're takin an important part of his game away though, he lost to Vera anyways

How about maybe Cro cop is declining as much as we think, but the cage is playing into it.

It helps wrestlers for sure. I just want the Yellow Card over here to make it more interesting. I think that is all that is missing. I hate when guys are on the ground and the ropes are in the way. I hate when guys outside the ring are grabbing at the fighters too. You can take a few negs from both, but overall if you marry the Yellow Card with Cage rules then you have perfection. Oh and you need a mic on the ref like in Pride. That was always cool to hear the ref yelling at the fighters.

Thats the point. In the ring, you have to be more than just a pin somebody to the cage and dirty boxing guy. Thats why Couture got submitted three times to the weaker Overeem brother and a couple other no names when he fought inside the ring.

Vera won the fight anyway, in a ring...Couture is nothing to Brandon Vera and he gets finished via strikes in round 1. In the cage, he is one of the best of all time.

As for CroCop, you watch his Pride fights and how he used the entire ring and move around a lot and his UFC fights he is stationary and does not move around much at all probably because of the cage...and it goes for CroCop to but i think the ring plays more to ALL the martial arts and a better fight while the cage is just a clear advanatage for one.

I see it the other way around, I think the cage plays better to all fighters

im definitely down for the U.S to adopt the yellow card rule