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 Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.

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captain organic
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Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Empty
PostSubject: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 12:20 pm

"Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of nineteen years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right. It may be said, that the succeeding generation exercising, in fact, the power of repeal, this leaves them as free as if the constitution or law had been expressly limited to nineteen years only. In the first place, this objection admits the right, in proposing an equivalent. But the power of repeal is not an equivalent. It might be, indeed, if every form of government were so perfectly contrived, that the will of the majority could always be obtained, fairly and without impediment. But this is true of no form. The people cannot assemble themselves; their representation is unequal and vicious. Various checks are opposed to every legislative proposition. Factions get possession of the public councils, bribery corrupts them, personal interests lead them astray from the general interests of their constituents; and other impediments arise, so as to prove to every practical man, that a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:459, Papers 15:396

So Jefferson believed that any constitution including our own, would, over time become a shackle of it's citizens.
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captain organic
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Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 12:21 pm

"A generation may bind itself as long as its majority continues in life; when that has disappeared, another majority is in place, holds all the rights and powers their predecessors once held and may change their laws and institutions to suit themselves. Nothing then is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:4
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captain organic
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Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 12:30 pm

"a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal"
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oggy420
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Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 1:33 pm

captain organic wrote:
"A generation may bind itself as long as its majority continues in life; when that has disappeared, another majority is in place, holds all the rights and powers their predecessors once held and may change their laws and institutions to suit themselves. Nothing then is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:4
Nothing then is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man = The Bill Of Rights
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oggy420
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Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 1:37 pm

I agree with TJ. No one has the natural or legal right to bind future generations to some form of government without their permission

Just a question though. If we were to have the Constitution re-written every 19 years or so- would you trust the current members of the House and Senate to do such a thing?

As written, the Constitution does allow for modifications, but was careful to make the requirements very stringent to reduce the chance of meddling.

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oggy420
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PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 1:42 pm

“Jefferson thought the dead should not rule the living, thus constitutions should expire frequently, but the fact is that the U.S. Constitution quickly became enshrined by the public and is the oldest constitution in the world,” said Zachary Elkins, a professor of political science at Illinois

The Constitution is the single greatest document promoting freedom and individual liberty ever written. It has produced the most free and prosperous country in the history of man.

The Constitution is completely irrelevant to the current mercantilist ruling class. Assassinations, bills of credit, and undeclared wars are not authorized under the constitution; therefore, the current rulers are simply illegitimate oligarchs with military might.
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oggy420
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PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 1:52 pm

since you seem to have cherry picked the one thing you seem to agree with Thomas Jefferson on, having Obama nuts rewrite the constitution, or in other words replacing it with the communist manifesto, how about some more thoughts from TJ

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure.



Soo do you also agree we should have a rebellion every 20 years, or does that not fit you authoritarian guidelines?
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OU
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Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 2:51 pm

Oggy I'm guessing you are a fan of the new GTA storyline. At one point in the game you go on a mission to steal some nerve gas for the government so they can sell it to terrorist so they can get more funding for anti-terrorism. Because as they say the best way to get more funding for anti-terrorism is more acts of terrorism.

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captain organic
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Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 3:27 pm

oggy420 wrote:
since you seem to have cherry picked the one thing you seem to agree with Thomas Jefferson on, having Obama nuts rewrite the constitution, or in other words replacing it with the communist manifesto, how about some more thoughts from TJ

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure.



Soo do you also agree we should have a rebellion every 20 years, or does that not fit you authoritarian guidelines?
1)How do you know that I even agree with Jefferson on rewriting the constituion every 20 years.

2)How do you know what else I may or may not agree with Jefferson on?

3)Communist manifesto? Oggy again with the blaring rhetoric.

4)No I do not agree with armed Rebellion every 20 years. So I guess that is one thing you now know I disagree with Jefferson on.
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oggy420
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Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 3:28 pm

OU wrote:
Oggy I'm guessing you are a fan of the new GTA storyline. At one point in the game you go on a mission to steal some nerve gas for the government so they can sell it to terrorist so they can get more funding for anti-terrorism. Because as they say the best way to get more funding for anti-terrorism is more acts of terrorism.
I've only played it for a few minutes at a friends house. But yes, for the most part that is how it works.

America always needs an enemy, a boogieman under the bed. If we don't have this, the need for military domination of the world, an endless defense budget, and an increasing police state in which individual liberty is exponentially being replaced with a false sense of protection and security, will go away. The powers that be can not let this happen, and must continue the false reality scare tactics that keep them in power and keep the people from seeing what is really going on.
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oggy420
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Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 3:45 pm

captain organic wrote:
oggy420 wrote:
since you seem to have cherry picked the one thing you seem to agree with Thomas Jefferson on, having Obama nuts rewrite the constitution, or in other words replacing it with the communist manifesto, how about some more thoughts from TJ

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure.



Soo do you also agree we should have a rebellion every 20 years, or does that not fit you authoritarian guidelines?
1)How do you know that I even agree with Jefferson on rewriting the constituion every 20 years.

2)How do you know what else I may or may not agree with Jefferson on?

3)Communist manifesto?   Oggy again with the blaring rhetoric.  

4)No I do not agree with armed Rebellion every 20 years.   So I guess that is one thing you now know I disagree with Jefferson on.  
1) what was the purpose of this thread then? I think you've made it more than clear that the Constitution is of little relevance to your political views.

2) Let me take a wild guess. You are pro anything Jefferson said that empowers the state (which certainly isn't much), and against anything he says that promotes the right of the citizens to bear arms for defense of their family, private property, or an out of control tyrannical government.

3) Maybe you haven't noticed how communism and socialism are no longer the enemy of America as it used to be.

As you have said yourself, the people who want limited government and fiscal sanity are now considered "extremists" by the political establishment and corporate lapdog media.

The new "threat" to the political establishment are American Patriots, gun owners, returning veterans, and people who are concerned about individual liberty. That comes strait from the White House, Army documents, and parrot media.

The media and establishment now demonizes the Founding Fathers, even saying that they were Americas first terrorists, and that they would not be welcome in todays military. They marginalize anyone who asks serious questions and refuses to play the left right game and just call everyone who disagrees with them either racist or a conspiracy theorist.

4) I think a rebellion is exactly what this country needs. Not a violent rebellion, and intellectual rebellion. No army can stop an idea whose time has come.

There is a global awakening happening all over the world, a rebellion against tyrants, imperialism, and a demand for god given rights to no longer be manipulated by the ruling class. You can try to stop this, you can scream and cry about "extremists" while you align yourself with the very sociopaths encouraging the broken system of control, but you cant stop what is coming.
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OU
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Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 3:54 pm

oggy420 wrote:
OU wrote:
Oggy I'm guessing you are a fan of the new GTA storyline. At one point in the game you go on a mission to steal some nerve gas for the government so they can sell it to terrorist so they can get more funding for anti-terrorism. Because as they say the best way to get more funding for anti-terrorism is more acts of terrorism.
I've only played it for a few minutes at a friends house. But yes, for the most part that is how it works.

America always needs an enemy, a boogieman under the bed. If we don't have this, the need for military domination of the world, an endless defense budget, and an increasing police state in which individual liberty is exponentially being replaced with a false sense of protection and security, will go away. The powers that be can not let this happen, and must continue the false reality scare tactics that keep them in power and keep the people from seeing what is really going on.  
Yeah you are going to get a kick out of the story line and the work with corrupt FBI(or as they call it FIB) agents.

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captain organic
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Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 4:07 pm

oggy420 wrote:
1) what was the purpose of this thread then? I think you've made it more than clear that the Constitution is of little relevance to your political views.

2) Let me take a wild guess. You are pro anything Jefferson said that empowers the state (which certainly isn't much), and against anything he says that promotes the right of the citizens to bear arms for defense of their family, private property, or an out of control tyrannical government.

3) Maybe you haven't noticed how communism and socialism are no longer the enemy of America as it used to be.

As you have said yourself, the people who want limited government and fiscal sanity are now considered "extremists" by the political establishment and corporate lapdog media.

The new "threat" to the political establishment are American Patriots, gun owners, returning veterans, and people who are concerned about individual liberty. That comes strait from the White House, Army documents, and parrot media.

The media and establishment now demonizes the Founding Fathers, even saying that they were Americas first terrorists, and that they would not be welcome in todays military. They marginalize anyone who asks serious questions and refuses to play the left right game and just call everyone who disagrees with them either racist or a conspiracy theorist.

4) I think a rebellion is exactly what this country needs. Not a violent rebellion, and intellectual rebellion. No army can stop an idea whose time has come.

There is a global awakening happening all over the world, a rebellion against tyrants, imperialism, and a demand for god given rights to no longer be manipulated by the ruling class. You can try to stop this, you can scream and cry about "extremists" while you align yourself with the very sociopaths encouraging the broken system of control, but you cant stop what is coming.
1)Point of this thread?   Basically poking fun at you Oggy.   You love Jefferson, and you hold the constitution up as something that should not be challenged.   Well Jefferson himself says the constitution should be challenged.   In fact in his view it should be scrapped and rewritten every 19 years so as to better suit the citizenry of the age.

2)Wrong again.

3)Communism no longer an enemy of the country.  So you preferred it when we went to war to stop communism?   Or the days of military spending in the cold war?   U speak of the boogeyman.   Communism was such a boogeyman.

4)I'll agree on the need of an intellectual rebellion.  I even think you should try and join in.
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Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 4:21 pm

He said the constitution should be challenged. He also said "Nothing then is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man" = The Bill Of Rights. that includes the 2nd amendment as the right of self defense.

So like I have already said I agree with TJ. No one has the natural or legal right to bind future generations to some form of government without their permission.

However, it is clear that the constitution has been changed. And im not talking about amendments.

Im talking about the fact that through carefully worded and ironically named legislation that has been passed, specifically since September 11 2001, we basically do not follow the constitution anymore. The Patriot Act, National defense Authorization act, NSA spying, undeclared wars, drone strikes, these things are all highly unconstitutional.

and im sorry, but your last line literally had me laughing out loud.

What intellectual rebellion are you apart of exactly? The never question government, everything Obama does is amazing, anyone who disagrees is a racist or "extremist" rebellion?

The anti-constitution, anti-patriot, anti freedom intellectual rebellion?



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captain organic
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Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 4:37 pm

oggy420 wrote:
He said the constitution should be challenged. He also said "Nothing then is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man" = The Bill Of Rights. that includes the 2nd amendment as the right of self defense.

So like I have already said I agree with TJ. No one has the natural or legal right to bind future generations to some form of government without their permission.

However, it is clear that the constitution has been changed. And im not talking about amendments.

Im talking about the fact that through carefully worded and ironically named legislation that has been passed, specifically since September 11 2001, we basically do not follow the constitution anymore. The Patriot Act, National defense Authorization act, NSA spying, undeclared wars, drone strikes, these things are all highly unconstitutional.

and im sorry, but your last line literally had me laughing out loud.

What intellectual rebellion are you apart of exactly? The never question government, everything Obama does is amazing, anyone who disagrees is a racist or "extremist" rebellion?

The anti-constitution, anti-patriot, anti freedom intellectual rebellion?



When did I ever say any of these things? Whats with the constant attribution of views to me which I have never expressed?

I call people that predicted WWIII due to Obama as extremists. Those that said he is "coming for your guns" those people are extremists.
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PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 4:49 pm

Actually those who enslave future generations in debt are extremists. Those who continue to grow spending, to continue to grow the size and scope of government without any regard for the future, are the extremists.
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PostSubject: Re: Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    Jefferson believed the constitution had a shelf life.    EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 4:54 pm

a post I saw on a website I frequent that I thought hit the nail on the head about The Fed printing money and the coming economic collapse


The problem with a great depression scenario is that it is too optimistic.

Any economic collapse resulting from the kind of run away money printing that the federal reserve has been doing to the tune of trillions upon trillions of dollars will be catastrophic. In Zimbabwe, where they kill white farmers for sport, the nation started on the path to hyperinflation, creating starving millionaires overnight.

America has printed far more dollars than Mugabe could have ever dreamed.

But the biggest reason that this collapse will be so spectacular isn't even the money printing and pits of bottomless debt - as bad as these things are. No, this collapse will be more spectacular because of what's missing: morals and independence.

Weaned on a culture of marxist collectivism and secular humanism, Americans have lost much of the spirit of their ancestors who lived through the great depression and two world wars. Back then, there was community, and as bad as things were, for every hand out, there was someone prepared to put something in hand for those less fortunate.

Liberals have replaced the many hands of real community and moral fiber, with the one giant hand of government. When the government falls, however, that big hand will be empty, and too few will be the little hands of the community.

With radical feminism, the family unit, the core of any civilization, has been ravaged. Child poverty rates have been on a steady rise since its inception, as more and more families are parented by one parent alone. Churches lay vacant, and are often used as bingo parlors, or rent-a-halls. Where America was mostly agrarian, today, it is mostly post apocalyptic industrial. Individuals rely on 'experts' for their repairs now, and no longer have a play book to go to on morals. Sadly, the morals imparted to this generation are: if you can get away with it, then take it, it's yours. Self sacrifice has given way to narcissism.

So all of this dependence of course leads to increased costs. Now we have to pay for daycare centers, and people to care for the sick and elderly. Now everything that was once given freely, has been monetized. Government has ballooned past the point of even being sustainable in its attempt to replace moms, and churches, and neighborhoods.

The collapse, when it comes, will be spectacular. And, I don't think there will be anything even remotely resembling America when the smoke clears."
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