Iraq's New War

Subject: Re: Iraq's New War Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:27 pm

oggy420 wrote:: lol not helping innocent people give me a fucking break dude. Just because you fall for the "humanitarian war" peace through bloodshed philosophy doesn't mean Ron Paul supporters don't care about Humanity. They're just not stupid enough to be tricked again and lied to about how we are gonna "save the children" or bring stability to anything.

Flat out - If you think our military presence in the middle east, either through undeclared occupation or supporting NATO or UN intervention or bombings, has been truly for "humanitarian" reasons, or has been about anything other than Oil, natural resources, and destabilizing a region, then you are completely ignorant to what is going on around you.

The killing hasn't stopped in Libya. What do you not get? People are still being slaughtered there so essentially the operation accomplished nothing! like it always does in wars promoted by the corrupt establishment. We are not firing bullets made with depleted fucking uranium all over Iraq and Afghanistan so that we can help "stabilize" a fucking thing. We don't give a flying fuck about those people and you know it, but feel free to keep lying to yourself. Whatever you gotta do to not really think about the possibility that you may be supporting a very flawed corrupt system, or the consequences of just going along with a status quo, an establishment that has made it pretty clear, at least to me, that they certainly do not have my best interest at heart. So go ahead and make fun of Ron Paul and the people who are intellectually awake enough to have a clue, whatever makes you feel better so that you can make it through the day.

Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Morrocco, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Pakistan. Just a couple of the countries that we have been tied to because of the positive implications of that war.
Simply put, we can't ignore the middle east, we need friends in the region and that is the real point.

Oggy guess how many innocent people died in our bombing raids in Libya. 60. another 55 were injured. versus Gaddafi committing WAR CRIMES AND WAR AGAINST HUMAINTY PEOPLE DPO CARE ABOUT THIS AND YOUR ARGUMENT AGAINST INVOLVEMENT IS OH PEOPLE DONT REALLY CARE ITS ALL BULLSHIT.

Subject: Re: Iraq's New War Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:27 pm

Im doing fine when wolf disagrees with me.

Subject: Re: Iraq's New War Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:30 pm

oggy at the end of the day you are arguing against the removal of a brutal dictator who committed war crimes and crimes against humanity , sponsored stae run terrorism AND WE DIDNT EVEN GO TO WAR WITH HIM we removed him without sending our armies there, this was NATO led, I understand you can't grasp that but its ok.

But your argument is NATO shouldn't have aided Gadaffis opposition.

OK

Bronze Belt Posts : 6483 Join date : 2009-07-15 Age : 36

so everything is on the up and up in Libya now then right? and those numbers are definitely wrong. i can just google "civilians killed in Nato intervention in Libya and i get :
"Gaddafi has finally concluded his eight- month stand-off with NATO. But as the alliance and the new Libyan government celebrate the war’s end, the untold numbers killed in the intervention cast a dark shadow over their victory.
As Libyans poured out onto the streets of Tripoli and Benghazi to celebrate the death of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, the cost of the war will weigh heavily on their nation for some time to come.
While there are no exact figures on casualties, speaking back in September, the health minister in the new Libyan government estimated that at least 30,000 people had been killed and 50,000 wounded during the first six months of war.
Apart from those deaths brought about by combat between Gaddafi loyalists and rebel forces, NATO, which had been authorized by UN Security Council Resolution 1973 to use any means necessary to protect civilians, has faced heavy criticism for its often deadly airstrikes.
One such instance occurred in Tripoli on June 19 when a NATO missile missed its target, killing at least nine civilians as a result. NATO admitted its culpability in the deaths.
By the end of the month, three separate NATO airstrikes around the country would ultimately claim another 34 civilian lives.
However, the largest single incident came on August 9, when the government reported that 85 people had been killed in a NATO airstrike on Majar, a village some 90 miles east of Tripoli."

and what about over 1 million dead civilians in the Iraq war

what about 16 civilians killed by one us soldier on a rampage? That probably won't have any blow back right?

Come on man. Seriously.

Bronze Belt Posts : 6483 Join date : 2009-07-15 Age : 36

from the same article

Perhaps more critically, a nation which had a remarkably high standard of living prior to the conflict now faces a potentially massive humanitarian crisis. Speaking with RT earlier this week, former MI5 agent Annie Machon claimed NATO’s intervention has plunged Libya back into the Stone Age.
“They’ve had free education, free health, they could study abroad. When they got married they got a certain amount of money. So they were rather the envy of many other citizens of African countries. Now, of course, since NATO’s humanitarian intervention the infrastructure of their country has been bombed back to the Stone Age. They will not have the same quality of life. Women probably will not have the same degree of emancipation under any new transitional government. The national wealth is probably going to be siphoned off by Western corporations. Perhaps the standard of living in Libya might have been slightly higher than it perhaps is now in America and the UK with the recession,” she said.

Subject: Re: Iraq's New War Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:48 pm

oggy420 wrote:: so everything is on the up and up in Libya now then right? and those numbers are definitely wrong. i can just google "civilians killed in Nato intervention in Libya and i get :
"Gaddafi has finally concluded his eight- month stand-off with NATO. But as the alliance and the new Libyan government celebrate the war’s end, the untold numbers killed in the intervention cast a dark shadow over their victory.
As Libyans poured out onto the streets of Tripoli and Benghazi to celebrate the death of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, the cost of the war will weigh heavily on their nation for some time to come.
While there are no exact figures on casualties, speaking back in September, the health minister in the new Libyan government estimated that at least 30,000 people had been killed and 50,000 wounded during the first six months of war.
Apart from those deaths brought about by combat between Gaddafi loyalists and rebel forces, NATO, which had been authorized by UN Security Council Resolution 1973 to use any means necessary to protect civilians, has faced heavy criticism for its often deadly airstrikes.
One such instance occurred in Tripoli on June 19 when a NATO missile missed its target, killing at least nine civilians as a result. NATO admitted its culpability in the deaths.
By the end of the month, three separate NATO airstrikes around the country would ultimately claim another 34 civilian lives.
However, the largest single incident came on August 9, when the government reported that 85 people had been killed in a NATO airstrike on Majar, a village some 90 miles east of Tripoli."

go ahead and believe Libyan government claims (under gaddafi rule) if you want.

In all, at least 40 civilians, and perhaps more than 70, were killed by NATO at these sites, available evidence suggests. While that total is not high compared with other conflicts in which Western powers have relied heavily on air power, and less than the exaggerated accounts circulated by the Qaddafi government, it is also not a complete accounting. Survivors and doctors working for the anti-Qaddafi interim authorities point to dozens more civilians wounded in these and other strikes, and they referred reporters to other sites where civilian casualties were suspected.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/world/africa/scores-of-unintended-casualties-in-nato-war-in-libya.html?pagewanted=all

where we disagree is you seem to think that libya is becoming some Al Qaeda free for all, whereas I believe the NTC will maintain control and become a friend that doesn't oh say blow up jet liners, slaughter civilians , you know stuff like that.

and what about over 1 million dead civilians in the Iraq war

what about 16 civilians killed by one us soldier on a rampage? That probably won't have any blow back right?

Come on man. Seriously.

Bronze Belt Posts : 6483 Join date : 2009-07-15 Age : 36

hey as long as no one knows how many civilians were killed it doesn't matter right?

Could have been 50, could have been 50 thousand. We don't know for sure, so thus it is irrelevant.

And im the one who doesn't care about humanity?

Subject: Re: Iraq's New War Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:58 pm

It is difficult to get post WW2 Americans to understand the concept that it isn't our business or place to intervene and that we are not this moral authority of democracy and light.

We have third world neighborhoods in the US. Address them.

Subject: Re: Iraq's New War Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:47 pm

Wolfgangsta wrote:: It is difficult to get post WW2 Americans to understand the concept that it isn't our business or place to intervene and that we are not this moral authority of democracy and light.

We have third world neighborhoods in the US. Address them.

what a shock the guy who bashes the Israeli state has a problem with modern post WW2 thinking

what a fucking shock