I take back everything I ever said about Frank Mir

Werdum is a better grappler, but is he a better submission artist? Mir has 9 submission wins to Werdums 8. 21 fights to Werdums 20. So I'd say they are fairly even in terms of experience and ability to pull off the submission. Mir has come up bigger when the big lights are on if you know what I mean. Breaking Sylvias arm for the belt, now being the first guy to ever submit Minotauro among the other crazy submissions like the Pete Williams. Werdum has shown less ability to survive when he can't get it to where he has the upper hand.

You wanna talk about big moment? Were you more shocked when Fedor was subbed by Werdum or when Nog was subbed by Mir?

Frank Mir is a god, kneel before him !

OU wrote:

You wanna talk about big moment? Were you more shocked when Fedor was subbed by Werdum or when Nog was subbed by Mir?

Honestly I was more shocked about Nogueira. Nobody doubted for a second that Werdum could submit Fedor if it got to the ground. That was the only way he was going to be able to win as I recall people saying. Nobody ever thought Frank Mir would actually submit Minotauro.

Everyone doubted he could have been submitted. At the time, Fedor was considered to be approximately equal to any of those four submission wise and likely considered better than Mir by many of us. The refrain you, me, everyone repeated was if Fedor survived Nog's guard than he could survive Werdum's.

Both were equally shocking, awesome reminders that BJJ is not dead in MMA, and anyone can be tapped.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Everyone doubted he could have been submitted. At the time, Fedor was considered to be approximately equal to any of those four submission wise and likely considered better than Mir by many of us. The refrain you, me, everyone repeated was if Fedor survived Nog's guard than he could survive Werdum's.

Both were equally shocking, awesome reminders that BJJ is not dead in MMA, and anyone can be tapped.

or snapped

Personally I was more surprised by Werdum subbing Fedor then Mir subbing Nog. Even when Fedor was caught in the triangle and was turning purple, I still thought he would eventually get out of it. But when the much larger and much stronger Mir got ahold of Nog's arm, I was more sure it was over. Also considering how at the point of the fights Nog was more on the downside of his career then Fedor and Mir was the favorite in his fight as opposed to Werdum being a massive underdog. Neither man had ever been subbed before. Werdum might not have been as hurt as it initially looked, but Fedor did hit him with a shot and was going for the kill when boom, he was trapped.

mir has proven time after time not to be countd out. I counted him out in both of his last 2 fight. Guy has taken so much punishment in his last few loses compared to other fighters. Carwin and brock raped him. On the same note anyone who thinks he has a weak chin is just silly for as i can remember he has never been out and has taken brutal hits before being tko'd.imo the accident helpd him. Before mir relied on skill, wen he came back he relied on it as well but it took embarassing loses to vera and cruz to wake him up . H went from being out of shape and hung over during fight camp to properly setting up his fight camp. Still no dening he breaks down under preasure. Any strong wrestler who preasures him against the cage will always beat him for he breaks down ala vitor wether it was pre or post accident. In the end he wont be champ again but he sure is one of the top 3/4 best hws in the past decade with only fedor,randy and nog ahead of him

Frank Mir still is not a top 5 guy. He has no chin and even Nog proved it. Nog screwed up and Mir got a highlight reel. Mir can only luck into something against a top guy like he did against Brock in the 1st fight. Other than that, I don't see him beating Cain, JDS, Brock, Carwin, Barnett, Reem, Cormier maybe, but doubt it, Werdum maybe, but doubt it.

wow beast, u must really dislike mir. I agree he is not top 5 based on who he can and cant beat but guy has been legit. Jds/cain/carwin/cormier and maybe even reem could beat him(reem based on strength/size/powr) but barnett and werdum? First off why mention the pro wrestler barnett who has needed juice in all his big fight in order to compete. Second werdums ground is top notch but stand up is so/so. Mir has much improved stand up and i doubt he will mess wit werdum on the ground. Also as far as the chin goes,its mir. Guy has taken multiple shots and tko'd several times but thats after many blows. This isnt arlovski,overeem or cro cop we are talking about whom we have seen multiple time be put to sleep in their prime wit one single blow. In the end mir has taken alot of brutal damage imo from his last few loses for him to ever be prime but guy s still good . The way to beat mir is preasure him and break him down ala brock n carwin, somethin nog wasnt able to do. For that i pick those other 5 above him for they have the stregnth and powrr to do so but to say guy gets lucky or has a weak chin is just silly

There's no hate involved in saying his chin is starting to fail him. He gets wobbled alot lately but in his defense Minotauro has bulked up like a motherfucker during his midlife crisis. One area that will keep Mir from being top5 in the future is his weakness in the clinch. He gets bullied around in the clinch and we saw it against Carwin, Cro Cop for a time, a bit from Nelson and even from Minotauro. Until he fixes that aspect of his game he's going to keep getting beat by guys who can bully him against the cage and keep him from pulling guard.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ok i can agree wit u ludo. Ur right, just like any fighter the chin eventually starts fading and thats all im trying to say. I dont expect mir to ever be in the top 5 and just like nog he too will be fading fast in upcoming years imo. My comment was he was the #3/4 best hw of the past decade, not currently. but to discredit him as others have and say its luck and has no chin is what i find dumb and once again i agree, wen preasured in the clinch or anywer pretty much he breaks down. That has always been his problem but i agree wit everything u said

You can't call someone a hater for pointing out Mir's chin while acting like Josh Barnett isn't a good fighter just because he's used roids in the past

last time i checked mir had win over several primed fighter/champions like timmy and nog while barnetts biggest wins to date wer his ufc title win in wich he was busted and fled to japan afterwards and nog in a fight in wich he was most likely juiced. To date mir may not be all there but still competes against top 10 and divisions best while barnett gets the lower teir guys and does pro wrestling in japan instead of goin to his hearings in the u.s. Big difference in fighters

Josh Barnett would rape Frank Mir. I'm not hating on him either. I am just saying he isnt gonna beat top guys and a sloppy win over an old Nog doesn't do it for me.

Mir didn't beat Nog, Nog beat Nog.

OU is right! Nog forced Mir to keep rolling with him and instructed Frank how to perform that beautiful Kimura. It was a set-up, just like the WWE!

Andrew the Raider King wrote:

OU is right! Nog forced Mir to keep rolling with him and instructed Frank how to perform that beautiful Kimura. It was a set-up, just like the WWE!

you have to agree that nog had him beat there, 2 more punches and the ref would have jumped in! i mean frank was face down eating mat just like he was against carwin!!!

Andrew the Raider King wrote:

OU is right! Nog forced Mir to keep rolling with him and instructed Frank how to perform that beautiful Kimura. It was a set-up, just like the WWE!

No, but he did abandon the sure path to victory which would have been pounding Mir's skull a few more times.

Well I agree with Mir's analysis after the fight. If you watch that and hear what he ha to say, he said he would have done the same thing.

Andrew the Raider King wrote:

Well I agree with Mir's analysis after the fight. If you watch that and hear what he ha to say, he said he would have done the same thing.

Mir has never had someone as dangerous on the ground rocked hard like that so what he would do means precisely dick.

wow. wutever, an old mir who wil never be champ again beat an old nog wutever. In the end had arlovski not had a weak chin he would of beaten fedor. Had cro cop not been a one dimentional fighter or had a weak chin ala randleman/gonzaga/ others he would of been better. Had timmy not gone to the ground he would of tko'd mir n nog. It never ends. In the end mir simply was a better fighter than nog......both times. And once again until barnett stops being a pro wrestler/wwe guy n wins big fights without being on the juice, he'll still be a joke.