NBA Discussion Thread

How can you forget titles? that's the whole aim! ask all the NBA GM's if you could build around either a rookie Kobe or a rookie Duncan who would you take and I bet you at least 70% will say Duncan.

I'm not a Jordan homer. He's not even in my favorite 20 players ever but he's clearly the GOAT and not even close.

MJ said if he had to pick 1 guy that is the closest to him he would pick Kobe. That doesn't mean he thinks Kobe is in his league. Kobe is the closest to Jordan in terms of play.

freakzilla wrote:

How can you forget titles? that's the whole aim! ask all the NBA GM's if you could build around either a rookie Kobe or a rookie Duncan who would you take and I bet you at least 70% will say Duncan.

I'm not a Jordan homer. He's not even in my favorite 20 players ever but he's clearly the GOAT and not even close.

You are the one that suggested taking stats out of it. I was saying IF you do what YOU suggested and LOOK at just the play on the court. You can't justify your argument.

freakzilla wrote:

MJ said if he had to pick 1 guy that is the closest to him he would pick Kobe. That doesn't mean he thinks Kobe is in his league. Kobe is the closest to Jordan in terms of play.

No one is saying that MJ said Kobe is on his level. No one is trying to say that. We understand that MJ said Kobe is the CLOSEST player out there to being in his league. We got that. However YOU brought up Timmy and turned it into Timmy vs Kobe. Which is not an even matchup, the winner is not up for debate.

OU wrote:

freakzilla wrote:

How can you forget titles? that's the whole aim! ask all the NBA GM's if you could build around either a rookie Kobe or a rookie Duncan who would you take and I bet you at least 70% will say Duncan.

I'm not a Jordan homer. He's not even in my favorite 20 players ever but he's clearly the GOAT and not even close.

You are the one that suggested taking stats out of it. I was saying IF you do what YOU suggested and LOOK at just the play on the court. You can't justify your argument.

Where did I say take stats out of it? I said Kobe has better numbers but Duncan is the better player.

OU wrote:

freakzilla wrote:

MJ said if he had to pick 1 guy that is the closest to him he would pick Kobe. That doesn't mean he thinks Kobe is in his league. Kobe is the closest to Jordan in terms of play.

No one is saying that MJ said Kobe is on his level. No one is trying to say that. We understand that MJ said Kobe is the CLOSEST player out there to being in his league. We got that. However YOU brought up Timmy and turned it into Timmy vs Kobe. Which is not an even matchup, the winner is not up for debate.

I agree. I'd take the greatest PF of all-time easily.

freakzilla wrote:

OU wrote:

freakzilla wrote:

MJ said if he had to pick 1 guy that is the closest to him he would pick Kobe. That doesn't mean he thinks Kobe is in his league. Kobe is the closest to Jordan in terms of play.

No one is saying that MJ said Kobe is on his level. No one is trying to say that. We understand that MJ said Kobe is the CLOSEST player out there to being in his league. We got that. However YOU brought up Timmy and turned it into Timmy vs Kobe. Which is not an even matchup, the winner is not up for debate.

I agree. I'd take the greatest PF of all-time easily.

The best SG that ever played the game are far superior to the best PF to play the game. In 5 years your argument will be even more LOL. What do you expect Kobe to do over the next 5 years? What do you expect Timmy to do over those same 5 years? Kobe is going to have a far more impressive body of work. If you would take Timmy on his best day over Kobe on his best day, you are not being objective. So again we have Kobe with the higher peak and with the much longer peak. This is not a discussion, this is approaching incompetence.

lol @ people that can't get past being a fanboy

Ziggy116 wrote:

lol @ people that can't get past being a fanboy

I hate both these bastards and it makes me sick I have to defend Kobe. Although I should consider myself trolled for being suckered into this. I'm expecting a troll face from Freak any moment now since he can't be serious with his post here.

Charles Barkley agrees with me!

http://sircharlesincharge.com/2011/01/21/tim-duncan-vs-kobe-bryant-the-debate-to-me/

Last year, we had the “Who’s the best player of the last decade” debate. The results were confusing to me. Allen Iverson got a lot of votes, but didn’t win. Shaq got dozens of tallies because he was considered the most dominant player during the Lakers’ three-peat,but from 2007-2009, Shaq really didn’t do anything to make you think he’s the man he once was. This left Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant. My thinking: Tim Duncan should win easily, 4 titles, impacted the Spurs and was the man from day one. Who won? Kobe Bryant. One year later, I have a problem with this.

For one, what makes Kobe the best in the past decade? Is it the fact that LeBron’s the new guy to hate, which made Kobe the savvy veteran that’s cool to cheer again? Should we ignore the fact he couldn’t win 50 games without a superstar next to him? I’ll be the first one to say it: I respect Kobe’s game BUT the person seems lame to me. For one, the whole “Look at his roster without Shaq” argument is tough for me ( we’ll get to that later), the fact he only won 2 titles as a the main option and has quit on his team in the past, demanded a trade AND did a LeBron-esque decision in 2004 annoys me. I’m not a Kobe hater, but I ask: Whenever fans discuss LeBron, we get this overall “aura” about him, which make people dislike him. For one, we hate the fact he made his choice to leave Cleveland, we hate the fact he feels entitled to call him self “King” and we as the media/blogsphere, always say ” LeBron doesn’t have as many rings as Kobe. Kobe’s better then LeBron because: He has more rings.” Is that even fair? For LeBron haters, it is but I ask you: Before he’s move to Miami, who w as LeBron’s best teammate in Cleveland? Anderson Verejao? Mo Williams? Ricky Davis? It’s unfair to me how we ATTACK LeBron for his recent laspes in judgment yet, Kobe gets a pass for all he’s done.

Now, my argument about his teammates. It actually compares to me to the Chicago Bulls in the year and a half Jordan left. During that year, Scottie Pippen turned from this 2nd option, defensive player to a 1st option who put up points and did everything for that team. Who did Pippen have to defer to? (In order of ppg per game in 1993-1994) Horace Grant, B.J. Armstrong, Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr. Your thinking: They must have won what? 35-40 games? No, this team won 55 games AND one in the first round without Jordan, injury issues in the frontline AND Steve Kerr as the 5th man. Here’s Kobe’s supporting cast from 2004 to 2007

2005: Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Chucky Atkins and Chris Mihm

2006: Lamar Odom, Smush Parker, Chris Mihm and Brian Cook

2007: Lamar Odom, Luke Walton, Smush Parker and Andrew Bynum

I guess I ask you this: If Pippen could pull 55 wins from the main 4 guys he had, how come Kobe couldn’t pull these guys to better then what he did? I just feel Kobe couldn’t evolve himself into what Pippen did. Pippen made sure he could get his teammates involved because he knew he could get 20-25 points with ease at the time. Throw in the fact Pippen usually guarded the best wing player. Kobe really couldn’t make players better back then. Why? Some of it was Kobe’s feel to be the man but it was also, he didn’t trust his teammates. I’m not saying any of those players I listed above were great, but you still have to explain to me how Kobe couldn’t push this team to 50 wins for me.

This is where Tim Duncan comes in. I’m not discounting the fact Duncan had David Robinson for the first six seasons of his career but I’d argue Tim Duncan was the man on that team from 1998 on. They never missed the playoffs with Duncan under the helm and I’d argue, Duncan never had a superstar next to him. When the Lakers won 3 titles in a row, it was Kobe and Shaq. Two top 15 players in NBA history. What if Duncan had someone like Ray Allen in 2003? Might they have won 2 titles in a row? 3 titles? Duncan instead, had Stephen Jackson ( I’m not saying he’s terrible, but there is a difference between Jackson and Ray Allen in 2003), 2nd year Tony Parker ( who San Antonio had so much faith in, they throw a contract offer to Jason Kidd the year after they won the title), Sean Elliot, David Robinson ( on his last legs), Glenn Robinson and 26 year old rookie Manu Ginobili for most of his title winning years.

I ask you: Why doesn’t Duncan get enough credit for being pretty much the oak tree in the NBA park? When the Spurs need 40, he got 40. When the Spurs need him to defend, he defended pretty well. Even this season, Duncan has lost almost all of his athleticism, yet he’s still having some big games (20-10-6 vs Phoenix, 28-16-4 vs Denver). Why? Because that’s what the Spurs need from him that night. There are nights that he struggles but more times then not, Duncan has came through. Let’s go back to the original question: Why does Duncan get little to no love? Promotion. Tim Duncan never promoted himself. He never went out of his way to be funny, or crazy. In the era where guys promoted shoes, Duncan promoted winning. As fans, we never got comfortable with Duncan because, we felt as if we didn’t know him.

To me, Tim Duncan is the best player of the 2000′s and it wasn’t even close to me.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/189183-tim-duncan-best-of-this-decade-not-kobe-bryant

Forget Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan Is the NBA's Best of the Decade

When thinking of the best players of this decade, there are certainly plenty of players who come to mind, but the two at the forefront are Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan. The winner, though, is Duncan and not Bryant.

Here is the comparison between Bryant and Duncan since the 2000-2001 season.

Duncan has three championship rings with the San Antonio Spurs since the 2000-2001 season. The difference is that Duncan, during each title won, was the unquestioned leader of the team.

Duncan also helped develop his teammates into the players they are today and that includes Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli who have become very valuable to the team. Also, like Bryant, Duncan was helped out by Robert Horry as well who has hit clutch shots for both teams.

Whereas when Kobe won the two championships, Bryant was the second option on the Los Angeles Lakers, with Shaquille O'Neal being the first option. Even during this time, it wasn't Bryant taking the clutch shots, it was Horry.

Bryant, since becoming the leader of the Lakers, has not developed anybody around him to the point of being an All-Star. Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol, and Trevor Ariza were all brought in by trades, whereas Ginobli and Parker were drafted by the Spurs.

Bryant is a one-time Most Valuable Player award winner, seven-time First Team All-NBA, sevein-time NBA All-Defense, one-time Second Team All-NBA, two-time Second Team All-Defense, and one-time NBA Third Team All-NBA.

Duncan is a two-time Most Valuable Player award winner, a two-time NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Award winner, seven-time NBA First Team All-NBA, six-time First Team NBA All-Defense, two-time Second Team All-NBA, and two-time Second Team All-Defense.

Duncan has more Most Valuable Player awards, more Finals Most Valuable Player awards, more Second Team All-NBA, tie with First Team All-NBA with seven, Bryant has won one more First Team All-Defense, and Kobe has the only Third Team All-NBA.

Let's look at the Lakers in terms of how many wins in a season: 56, 58, 50, 34, 56, 45, 42, 57, and 65 wins since the start of the 2000-2001 season for the Lakers.

The Spurs win total the past decade has been: 58, 58, 60, 57, 59, 63, 58, 56, and 54 wins, meaning the average record for the Spurs has been 51-31.

So, on average, the Spurs have won seven more games per season than the Lakers have. The Lakers may have had the best record out of any of the teams when they won 65, but that was the only 60 win season for the Lakers in this decade, compared to the Spurs having two.

Duncan has also led the Spurs to more victories than Bryant has as well. As it shows, the Spurs have never had a season with less than 54 wins, whereas the Lakers have had two seasons under 50 wins, including a 34-win team with no playoffs.

Since the 2000-2001 season, Bryant has averaged 28.6 points per game, 5.8 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 1.65 steals, .54 blocks per game, has shot 45.5 percent from the floor, 33.4 percent from beyond the arc, and 84.5 percent from the line.

Since the 2000-2001 season, Duncan has averaged 21.2 points per game, 11.7 rebounds per game, 3.3 assists per game, .8 steals per game, 2.33 blocks per game, and shot 50.5 percent from the field and 67.6 percent from the free throw line.

Bryant, throughout the decade, has been known for his athleticism, his ability to score, being a solid defender, and his ability to come up in the clutch.

Duncan has been known as being the model of consistency. Whether it's on the defensive end or the offensive end of the floor, Duncan has been known to come up big.

Bryant beats Duncan in terms of scoring, assists, steals, three point percentage, and free throw percentage, but Duncan beats Kobe in rebounding, blocks, and field goal percentage.

Yet, when putting everything together in terms of awards, championships, and winning teams, the winner in that category is Duncan.

So, who is the best player of this decade? It's Tim Duncan, and there is little question about it. Duncan reigns supreme in terms of the best player of this decade.

Hmmm, I wonder how many former players and articles I could find that would support Kobe? That comparison would also be a no contest.

Cliffs?

lol @ anyone that agrees with ol' Chuck

OU wrote:

Hmmm, I wonder how many former players and articles I could find that would support Kobe? That comparison would also be a no contest.

I'd like you to find 1.

freakzilla wrote:

OU wrote:

Hmmm, I wonder how many former players and articles I could find that would support Kobe? That comparison would also be a no contest.

I'd like you to find 1.

Oh come on Freak don't play that game, you think no one but OU thinks Kobe is better than Timmay???

freakzilla wrote:

OU wrote:

Hmmm, I wonder how many former players and articles I could find that would support Kobe? That comparison would also be a no contest.

I'd like you to find 1.

LOL really? I'm done man, you have trolled me enough here. Don't pretend like you can't find tons of articles from different years that would support Kobe. If you honestly don't think it would be an overwhelmingly amount of articles and players, you are a fucking moron. Enough time wasted on absolutely nothing. I would prefer bordem to your trolling right now.

So I guess you couldn't find 1 former superstar supporting you. Hmm... just like I guessed.

freakzilla wrote:

So I guess you couldn't find 1 former superstar supporting you. Hmm... just like I guessed.

LOL do you seriously beleive that? You can't be that fucking retarded.

Let's go ahead and look at YOUR source. Good ole Chuck.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Barkley-Kobe-Bryant-is-one-of-the-five-greates?urn=nba-287681
TNT studio analyst and NBA Hall of Famer Charles Barkley tackled the question during the network's "Inside the NBA" show on Friday.
"Remember
last week that I said that Kobe Bryant was one of the 10 greatest NBA
players ever. I want to change that," Barkley said.
"To what?" asked Barkley's TNT colleague, Kenny Smith.
"He's one of the five greatest ever," Barkley continued.
"Michael's first, Oscar
Robertson's second — this is just my opinion," Barkley said. "Bill
Russell's third, Wilt Chamberlain's four and Kobe Bryant's five."
"So he's better than Larry Bird and Magic Johnson?" asked Smith.
"Yes. Yes, he is," Barkley replied.


NOW THAT IS FUCKING CHARLES BARKLEY, YOUR SOURCE. Get off my nuts, troll.

freakzilla wrote:

OU wrote:

Hmmm, I wonder how many former players and articles I could find that would support Kobe? That comparison would also be a no contest.

I'd like you to find 1.

freak... are you FREAKin' serious?

1 Michael Jordan (63,542) 1,348,366
2 Magic Johnson (2,874) 1,121,320
3 Kobe Bryant (12,370) 1,007,987
4 K. Abdul-Jabbar (1,362) 952,198
5 Larry Bird (681) 909,835
6 Bill Russell (3,463) 900,033
7 Wilt Chamberlain (2,522) 886,661
8 Jerry West (229) 611,328
9 Shaquille O'Neal (182) 572,020
10 Oscar Robertson (298) 564,693
11 Julius Erving (163) 554,674
12 Tim Duncan (267) 490,755
13 Hakeem Olajuwon (247) 477,604
14 George Mikan (87) 330,938
15 Moses Malone (26) 329,197
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=4&listId=293#topOfList

Ziggy116 wrote:

killerofchicken wrote:

freakzilla wrote:

OU wrote:

Hmmm, I wonder how many former players and articles I could find that would support Kobe? That comparison would also be a no contest.

I'd like you to find 1.

freak... are you FREAKin' serious?

teee heee