The case for Frank Mir...

Universally he is still ranked highly. On most sites, by most here. Can someone explain why?

His last two wins are over current top five fighters, one over the standing champion, and another over then interm champion Minotauro. At first glance, that is clearly a top five fighter, but if you truly examine those victories, they are worth a lot less.

The Nog victory just doesn't count as a legit top five victory. The blown knee and staph infection had Nog in the type of shape that would have let Kongo, Crocop, Couture, Carwin, Lesnar, Dos Santos, Gonzaga, Rothwell or any other top tier HW finish him. I can't count the win.

Lesnar wasn't ranked then, and never the less was annihilating him 99% of that fight, and only because Brock is a big dumb oaf and didn't listen to the warning, the fight got restarted, allowing to capitalize on a mistake no experienced fighter would likely ever make. When was the last time someone won a title fight with a leg lock in the UFC? Has it ever happened? Since then, Lesnar has brutally erased that mistake. He dominated Mir for all but 5 seconds of all their fights.

All things considered, can we really rank Mir in the top ten? I say no.


Someone make a case beyond "he beat two top five guys"

Easy Wolf... It's a combination of being in a "what have you done lately" and a "scoreboard" world. Coming off his injury, he wasn't the same fighter leading to his losses to Cruz and Vera (Whom you claim as a legitimate talent). Since though, he beat a very game Hardonk, he almost tore Lesnar's leg off, was the first to KO Nog... And lost the rematch to the #2 HW in the world. Skillset wise his ground game is among the elite in the HW division despite what you think, and his boxing is becoming a huge problem for any HW (Lesnar wanted no part of standing with him despite Lesnar's supposed power advantage).

He's still ranked right around 5 or 6 on almost every ranking sheet out there for a reason. He's not the hack you believe he is, and others just know how to evaluate objectively without the hate glasses on...

No one goes into a fight 100%, Nog stepped into the cage and got made to look like a bitch. I can understand discrediting the fight to some extent because Nog was obviously not well, however, Frank blasted him repeatedly in that fight, I can't completely discount the W.

Lesnar will GnP damn near anyone right now. Carwin might be one of the only guys not named Fedor that can even give Brock a fight right now. For that reason, I discount every win that Brock has because he has an unfair size advantage. If he beats up on Carwin I will give him credit for picking on someone his own size.

The jury is definitely still out on Frank, post motorcycle accident. He'd be holding the belt right now if Lesnar wasn't around IMO. I'd like to see Frank fight Randy but obviously that's off the table judging by Frank's comments and Randy's scheduled fight with Vera.

But Mir wasn't an elite fighter before the crash? An instant tap of Tim Sylvia was his only claim to fame. His BJJ isn't even top five at HW, he doesn't have dick for cardio, and is standup is terrible. Anyone would have looked good against Nog that night.

The KO of Nog never happens against a healthy Nog. He never sub's Lesnar again. These are both clear. Hardonk isn't a top 25 fighter. Who the fuck is he? Come on.

Two way street. If the losses due to the crash don't count neither do his recent wins. Luckiest fighter ever.

Objective evaluation of his actual demonstrated skillset over his career and recent fights doesn't reveal a truly elite fighter. This is a guy who would likely lose to five or seven UFC HWs tomorrow(Gonzaga, Carwin, Cain, Nog, Lesnar, Nelson, Rothwell should all be favored imo) and wouldn't be in the top ten in Pride three years ago.


LTFG, you didn't say anything besides an extended version of "he beat lesnar and nog".

What I siad is... Scoreboard and What Have You Done Lately... That's how all fighters are ranked.

Did Bisping drop in the rankings when Hamil beat him? Why was Lawler ranked so high prior to losing to Shields? It's either about who you beat over a few fights, or how long of a streak your on against nobodies... Regardless of opinion on talent. Joe Warren is ranked in the top-15 on most FW sheets despite only being 2-0 thanks to a win over Kid. He's a wrestler with ugly stand-up, but no one seems to care...

What's your beef with Mir? And if he beats a Cain or Dos Santos, will you get off it?

Actually, Mir is considered one of the top five grapplers in his weight ranking. His BJJ is no joke and to say it is puts you right up there with Forrest Gump in the slow to grasp things. His stand up has improved drastically from where it was. He has proved it against Nog and Lesnar. He is a jerk and I will give you that, but that doesn't mean he is without ability or titles.

Top 5 is alittle high but top 10 he is somewhere around there. Probably between 8 to 13 or so.

Mir is way overrated but he did win those fights so I'd say he deserves to be ranked pretty high right now. But don't worry, after he gets KTFO by Kongo he'll drop in the rankings.

discovery99 wrote:

Mir is way overrated but he did win those fights so I'd say he deserves to be ranked pretty high right now. But don't worry, after he gets KTFO by Kongo he'll drop in the rankings.

Mir will beat Kongo in my book probably by sub.

discovery99 wrote:

Mir is way overrated but he did win those fights so I'd say he deserves to be ranked pretty high right now. But don't worry, after he gets KTFO by Kongo he'll drop in the rankings.

He's going to submit Kongo.

Didn't Arlovski ankle lock or heel hook Sylvia for the title in their first fight? I know its not a knee bar, but it is a lock incorporating the leg. Also, Mir didn't beat Brock with the knee bar in a title fight.

Anyway, I think Mir is a top notch grappler and top 10, but probably somewhere between 6-10.

Andrew the Raider King wrote:

Actually, Mir is considered one of the top five grapplers in his weight ranking. His BJJ is no joke and to say it is puts you right up there with Forrest Gump in the slow to grasp things. His stand up has improved drastically from where it was. He has proved it against Nog and Lesnar. He is a jerk and I will give you that, but that doesn't mean he is without ability or titles.

There are dozens of fighters who could have won those two fights. That was Lesnar's second fight, and Nog would have been KTFO by Melvin Gulliard that night.

Those wins are both flukes better explained by luck and circumstance than skill.

LikesToFightGuy wrote:

What I siad is... Scoreboard and What Have You Done Lately... That's how all fighters are ranked.

Did Bisping drop in the rankings when Hamil beat him? Why was Lawler ranked so high prior to losing to Shields? It's either about who you beat over a few fights, or how long of a streak your on against nobodies... Regardless of opinion on talent. Joe Warren is ranked in the top-15 on most FW sheets despite only being 2-0 thanks to a win over Kid. He's a wrestler with ugly stand-up, but no one seems to care...

What's your beef with Mir? And if he beats a Cain or Dos Santos, will you get off it?

I have no beef with Mir. He just doesn't deserve much praise. He isn't one of the worlds best HWs. He hasn't beaten a healthy top ten HW since Sylvia.

Rankings are about ability as much as anything else. Beating up an ancient man, Frank Mir and Heath Herring is something a dozen or more guys could do just as easy, but Lesnar is ranked so high because of his size and ability to use it. His actual wins aren't that great.

Andrew the Raider King wrote:

Actually, Mir is considered one of the top five grapplers in his weight ranking. His BJJ is no joke and to say it is puts you right up there with Forrest Gump in the slow to grasp things. His stand up has improved drastically from where it was. He has proved it against Nog and Lesnar. He is a jerk and I will give you that, but that doesn't mean he is without ability or titles.

He proved he's able to get GnP'd easily and able to KO a standing punching bag. What he did against Nog any HW could. Nog would have lost to nearly anyone in the top 30 that night.

Yes, i rank Mir highly. It all goes back to me thinking there is not that many great HW's out there and Mir is better than most of those guys like Kongo, Carwin, Gabe, Cain(untill proven otherwise), probably Couture.

I think Fedor, Nog, and Brock are excellent. I think Mir is the best of the rest untill AA gets back in business.

I humbly disagree with your assessment of Mir. If he had no skill, he never would have locked up Lesnar. If he didn't know how to correctly throw a punch, he never would have hurt Nog. Yes Lesnar lacked the wisdom of the cage, yes Nog was still recovering. So what? you have to know WTF you are doing to beat guys like that and he did! Lesnar with a lot of hard work, learned how to neutralize Mir in their second fight but everybody knew that Lesnar was not going to try and stand with the guy, because he would have possibly lost. Nog though a great submission specialist knew his best chance to hang with Frank, meant a standing fight, because until then Mir was known strictly as a BJJ guy. Nog didn't realize how much work Frank had put into his stand up game. Jesus Christ, give the guy some fucking credit. you have made better arguments for Ho Man Choi being an actual threat to Fedor than you are tearing Mir apart.

I'm with Wolfy on this, his original post has merit, but due to the way fighters are ranked (which is valid) Mir belongs in the top 10.......for now

And LTFG, almost tore Lesnar's leg off? really?

Relax LA... Who hasn't taken a little liberty when describing things on this board? Smoke a bowl and relax, kiddo...

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Universally he is still ranked highly. On most sites, by most here. Can someone explain why?

His last two wins are over current top five fighters, one over the standing champion, and another over then interm champion Minotauro. At first glance, that is clearly a top five fighter, but if you truly examine those victories, they are worth a lot less.

The Nog victory just doesn't count as a legit top five victory. The blown knee and staph infection had Nog in the type of shape that would have let Kongo, Crocop, Couture, Carwin, Lesnar, Dos Santos, Gonzaga, Rothwell or any other top tier HW finish him. I can't count the win.

Lesnar wasn't ranked then, and never the less was annihilating him 99% of that fight, and only because Brock is a big dumb oaf and didn't listen to the warning, the fight got restarted, allowing to capitalize on a mistake no experienced fighter would likely ever make. When was the last time someone won a title fight with a leg lock in the UFC? Has it ever happened? Since then, Lesnar has brutally erased that mistake. He dominated Mir for all but 5 seconds of all their fights.

All things considered, can we really rank Mir in the top ten? I say no.


Someone make a case beyond "he beat two top five guys"

I agree. He's a nobody. Vera beat him. That says a lot IMO. When he beat Nog I thought he was the real deal but after I found out about Nogs Knee and staph I changed my mind.

ohiovol62 wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Universally he is still ranked highly. On most sites, by most here. Can someone explain why?

His last two wins are over current top five fighters, one over the standing champion, and another over then interm champion Minotauro. At first glance, that is clearly a top five fighter, but if you truly examine those victories, they are worth a lot less.

The Nog victory just doesn't count as a legit top five victory. The blown knee and staph infection had Nog in the type of shape that would have let Kongo, Crocop, Couture, Carwin, Lesnar, Dos Santos, Gonzaga, Rothwell or any other top tier HW finish him. I can't count the win.

Lesnar wasn't ranked then, and never the less was annihilating him 99% of that fight, and only because Brock is a big dumb oaf and didn't listen to the warning, the fight got restarted, allowing to capitalize on a mistake no experienced fighter would likely ever make. When was the last time someone won a title fight with a leg lock in the UFC? Has it ever happened? Since then, Lesnar has brutally erased that mistake. He dominated Mir for all but 5 seconds of all their fights.

All things considered, can we really rank Mir in the top ten? I say no.


Someone make a case beyond "he beat two top five guys"

I agree. He's a nobody. Vera beat him. That says a lot IMO. When he beat Nog I thought he was the real deal but after I found out about Nogs Knee and staph I changed my mind.

A nobody? You might not think he's top 10 but he's definitely not a nobody.