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 The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take

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PostSubject: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptySun Sep 26, 2010 2:22 pm

Kevin Iole, the boxing writer for our partner Yahoo! Sports, raised the question in his most-recent column: How does one determine the best fighter in the world pound for pound?

Iole’s method mirrors that of many thoughtful observers: “I have always viewed the poll as a manner of deciding who would win if all fighters weighed the same and they fought each other,” he said.

Others take a different approach.

Doug Fischer and Michael Rosenthal, Co-Editors of RingTV.com, agree that a combination of ability and achievements -– with heavy emphasis on quality of opposition –- is the best means of determining the No. 1 fighter on the planet regardless of weight.

In other words, that lofty title must be earned to a great degree, according to Fischer and Rosenthal.

Thus, it’s no great surprise that the RingTV.com editors rate Pacquiao higher than Mayweather in their respective pound-for-pound Top 10 lists, which they forward to Iole each month as members of the Yahoo! Sports voting panel.

“Accomplishment and quality of opposition are the key criteria for my pound-for-pound ratings,” Fischer said. "Going undefeated and winning multiple titles, even in separate weight classes, is not enough to automatically merit pound-for-pound consideration in my opinion. This isn't Henry Armstrong's era of eight divisions and one world title for each weight class. We have four 'major' titles, 17 weight classes, and a lot of very unworthy alphabet 'contenders' in this era of the sport.

"Now more than ever talented fighters must prove their elite status by seeking out the best possible opposition. In other words: They must challenge themselves. Pacquaio is a good example of a world-class talent who consistently challenges himself."

So which is the better method? Neither.

The approach taken by Fischer and Rosenthal is similar to the manner in which fighters should be ranked by the sanctioning bodies, by wins and losses with emphasis on quality of opposition.

That’s the only objective means of determining who should fight who for the various titles.

The beauty of the pound-for-pound ratings is that they play little to no role in the business of boxing. They’re merely a fun way to compare the best fighters in the world to one another.

The point is that everyone has their own criteria in determining the mythical king and no one who has truly done his or her homework is necessarily wrong.

“The thing that always strikes me is how worked up people get over the pound-for-pound ratings,” Rosenthal said. “It’s a matter of opinion, nothing more. One can argue that Mayweather is better than Pacquiao and vice versa. And both arguments are likely to be valid.

“This is supposed to fun, not fodder for a nasty war of words.”

In that spirit, Fischer and Rosenthal give you their Top 10 lists in the first installment of what will be a monthly feature on the Web site. Enjoy and, as always, give us your thoughts.

Doug Fischer’s Top 10


1. Manny Pacquiao: Fighter of the decade proved mettle by going 5-1-1 against fellow future hall of famers Marquez, Barrera and Morales.
2. Floyd Mayweather Jr.:Boxing’s best blend of talent, skill and technique is undefeated over 14 years. Toughest foe may be himself.
3. Juan Manuel Marquez: 37-year-old lightweight champ is last man to give Pacquiao a fight. Only decisive loss was to Mayweather in a welterweight bout.
4. Wladimir Klitschko: Heavyweight champ, on 13-bout win streak, has completely dominated his division for last four years.
5. Vitali Klitschko: 39-year-old former champ is every bit as dominant as younger brother.
6. Paul Williams: Former welterweight titleholder has been a contender in three divisions. Nov. 20 rematch with Martinez is proof he seeks challenges.
7. Sergio Martinez: Middleweight champ is 1-1-1 in his last three bouts but most thought he beat Kermit Cintron and some believe he deserved the nod against Williams. Title-winning fight with Kelly Pavlik and rematch with Williams proof Martinez relishes a challenge.
8. Pongsaklek Wonjongkam: Flyweight champ has lost once in his last 69 bouts. Majority decision over Kameda in March clinched future Hall of Fame induction.
9. Fernando Montiel:Talented three-division beltholder is unbeaten in last 11 bouts, including impressive stoppage of Hasegawa in a title-unification bout.
10. Tomasz Adamek: Former cruiserweight champ, now rated at heavyweight, has won 11 bouts since his only loss, a decision to Dawson at light heavyweight. Veteran has been a contender in boxing’s three heaviest weight classes, which is very rare.


Michael Rosenthal’s Top 10


1. Manny Pacquiao: Most-impressive combination of ability and achievements. The greatest fighter of his generation.
2. Floyd Mayweather Jr.: Most-gifted and polished boxer must do more to prove he’s best.
3. Paul Williams: Must beat Martinez in more-convincing fashion in rematch to solidify position here.
4. Andre Ward: Complete fighter might be next dominant figure in boxing.
5. Sergio Martinez:Victory over Williams lifts late bloomer even higher.
6. Timothy Bradley: Talented but has other 140-pounders on his heels.
7. Juan Manuel Lopez: The new Puerto Rican star, loaded with talent and power, could be tested by veteran Rafael Marquez.
8. Wladimir Klitschko: Utter domination of division speaks volumes.
9. Vitali Klitschko: See Wladimir.
10. Juan Manuel Marquez: Old man proved against Juan Diaz that he has plenty left.

http://www.ringtv.com/blog/2358/pound_for_pound_top_10s_of_fischer_rosenthal/
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marbleheadmaui
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The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptySun Sep 26, 2010 4:34 pm

These guys are perverting the concept of what p4p means, or at least originally meant.

It's become a "who has accomplished the most" kind of thingy.

By that standard, I am a hell of a lot closer to Fischer than Rosenthal.
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powerpuncher
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PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptySun Sep 26, 2010 7:01 pm

ive always said the same thing, a big reason why p4p rankings are so different is because people rate so differently. sometimes i think that we agree with each other about specific fighters but not about where to rate them.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptySun Sep 26, 2010 8:14 pm

powerpuncher wrote:
ive always said the same thing, a big reason why p4p rankings are so different is because people rate so differently. sometimes i think that we agree with each other about specific fighters but not about where to rate them.

Yup. Criteria is everything isn't it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptySun Sep 26, 2010 10:58 pm

Bottom line is until Floyd & Manny either fight or lose, they will be 1 & 2 in any P4P Rankings. So now every article concerning these rankings will say the same thing. Even the Floyd fans will put him behind Manny. Floyd needs to grasp this concept. Maybe legacy does pay bills.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptySun Sep 26, 2010 11:29 pm

The thing I hate about P4P rankings though is that heavyweights never get a mention in the top 5. People say for instance if Mayweather was a heavyweight he'd be too fast for them but in reality you can't be that fast if you weighed that heavy. My P4P rankings are always based on how dominant someone is against everyone else in their division. In the case of Mayweather-Pacquiao though who fight in the same division I would base it on who I think would win.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptySun Sep 26, 2010 11:30 pm

flapanther2001 wrote:
Bottom line is until Floyd & Manny either fight or lose, they will be 1 & 2 in any P4P Rankings. So now every article concerning these rankings will say the same thing. Even the Floyd fans will put him behind Manny. Floyd needs to grasp this concept. Maybe legacy does pay bills.

No, I'm a Mayweather fan and I put him ahead of Pacquiao.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptySun Sep 26, 2010 11:44 pm

freakzilla316ftw wrote:
flapanther2001 wrote:
Bottom line is until Floyd & Manny either fight or lose, they will be 1 & 2 in any P4P Rankings. So now every article concerning these rankings will say the same thing. Even the Floyd fans will put him behind Manny. Floyd needs to grasp this concept. Maybe legacy does pay bills.

No, I'm a Mayweather fan and I put him ahead of Pacquiao.
Well, to be honest, I was talking about the "Official" guys that rank P4P....no offense.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptySun Sep 26, 2010 11:48 pm

flapanther2001 wrote:
freakzilla316ftw wrote:
flapanther2001 wrote:
Bottom line is until Floyd & Manny either fight or lose, they will be 1 & 2 in any P4P Rankings. So now every article concerning these rankings will say the same thing. Even the Floyd fans will put him behind Manny. Floyd needs to grasp this concept. Maybe legacy does pay bills.

No, I'm a Mayweather fan and I put him ahead of Pacquiao.
Well, to be honest, I was talking about the "Official" guys that rank P4P....no offense.

Lol, none taken.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptySun Sep 26, 2010 11:54 pm

ooooook im puerto rican but...JUANMA AT 7 P4P?? GTFO. also fisher has the klits before williams and martinez??? heck i have ward ahead of the klits also based on his level of opponents.
adamek at 10?? i love highlander but heck no. the second guy doesn't even have montiel on his list which is crazy.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptyMon Sep 27, 2010 12:59 am

freakzilla316ftw wrote:
The thing I hate about P4P rankings though is that heavyweights never get a mention in the top 5. People say for instance if Mayweather was a heavyweight he'd be too fast for them but in reality you can't be that fast if you weighed that heavy. My P4P rankings are always based on how dominant someone is against everyone else in their division. In the case of Mayweather-Pacquiao though who fight in the same division I would base it on who I think would win.
i would have no problem at all putting a HW on the list if any deserved to be on the list. look at the ninja board p4p ranking. wlad is on it because he is so dominant at HW. do you know who else is dominant? pongsaklek wonjongkam, navarez, giovani segura, roman gonzales, poonsawat, and others. why dont they get put into the p4p race usually? its because they are small so people dont pay attention to them. HWs get way more credit than they deserve. im sure that these smaller fighters have beaten way better opposition than the klits have but they get no respect. the HWs get too much respect just because they are HWs.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptyMon Sep 27, 2010 3:53 am

powerpuncher wrote:
freakzilla316ftw wrote:
The thing I hate about P4P rankings though is that heavyweights never get a mention in the top 5. People say for instance if Mayweather was a heavyweight he'd be too fast for them but in reality you can't be that fast if you weighed that heavy. My P4P rankings are always based on how dominant someone is against everyone else in their division. In the case of Mayweather-Pacquiao though who fight in the same division I would base it on who I think would win.
i would have no problem at all putting a HW on the list if any deserved to be on the list. look at the ninja board p4p ranking. wlad is on it because he is so dominant at HW. do you know who else is dominant? pongsaklek wonjongkam, navarez, giovani segura, roman gonzales, poonsawat, and others. why dont they get put into the p4p race usually? its because they are small so people dont pay attention to them. HWs get way more credit than they deserve. im sure that these smaller fighters have beaten way better opposition than the klits have but they get no respect. the HWs get too much respect just because they are HWs.

Narvaez sure hasn't. He's fought an amazing array of never weres, has beens and journeymen. I mean how does one go 32-0-2, have something like 15 title defenses and have fought one, ONE ranked guy (as near as I can figure)?

How in God's name does that happen? He makes Joe Calzaghe and Chris John look tested!
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PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptyMon Sep 27, 2010 9:55 pm

My p4p criteria

1. Recent performances - Who have you fought? What was the result?
2. Recent performances - How have you looked? Do you have any noticeable flaws?
3. Multiple weight classes - A guy like Pacquiao, Williams or Caballero will always rank higher with me because they demonstrate that their ability translates across weight. Being able to jump back and forth successfully literally shows p4p worth.
4. Accomplishments - An established guy will get the nod over a newcomer on an equal setting. But if the established guy hasn't won a big fight recently and/or appears to be on the decline he can get dropped. Same with a young fighter just looking spectacular moving up.
5. Personal preference - I like strategic boxers. I favor those guys the most.

I always try to give a special nod to the Heavys because those are the best fighters in the world. If you blew Manny up to 6-7 feet maybe he would kill Wlad. But if you put them in a ring together Wlad would actually destroy Manny. I think the Heavys have the highest degree of difficulty so I take that into account.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptyMon Sep 27, 2010 11:08 pm

i think something that people tend to forget also is that just because one person is above another at this moment, doesnt mean that they are better p4p all time. marb gives the example of pac. whether or not pac is #1 p4p at this moment doesnt mean that he wont be above all current boxers in an all time p4p list.
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PostSubject: Re: The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take   The Pound for Pound debate, two Ring writers give their take EmptyTue Sep 28, 2010 2:20 pm

Anytime I see a Klitschko in a pound for pound list I want to jab my eyes with knitting needles.
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