WEIGH-IN ISSUE GAINING TRACTION?

Wolfgangsta wrote:

So, you think fighters are going to stop cutting weight all of a sudden? Unless you weighed in immediately before the fights like in the old days, that just isn't possible, especially now that the weight cutting Pandora's box has been opened. You're just trying to turn back time. I appreciate your passion. But it's time to move forward. You can keep asking for data to prove that day before weigh ins are safer but there is no data either way that can be found in my google adventures that say anything either way.

Your data speaks to deaths, but doesn't have any controls for number of fights, weight of gloves, rules, weigh in practices world wide, etc, so it's not reliable, even a little bit. It just shows that boxing is dangerous no matter what kind of weigh ins you have.

let me get this straight. The sport works one way for 100 years and THEN is changed and the sport absorbs it. Yet you think for some reason the reverse is impossible? BS! I am trying to make the fight game as fair as possible and to provide continuity over time. THAT means that fighters must FIGHT at about the same weight and that featherweight should have a common meaning over time.

Would there be some temporary dislocation? Sure, Same as there was when we instituted day befor weigh-ins. So what? People will figure out hwere they belong in two fights or less.

At least now you admit day before weigh-ins have in no demonstrable way added safety. They were a solution in search of a problem.

Quote :

Everyone knows that the ADCC strives to be fair giving everyone an equal field to compete in the greatest and most prestigious grappling event in the world. That is why the committee developed a different set of rules that incorporates the best and most efficient moves from various grappling modalities. Over the years the committee has constantly sought feedback from athletes, coaches and referees using their input in their review process to further improve these rules.

From that process the committee recent meetings yielded a rule regarding weight limits. Starting immediately, athletes will be weight in just before they enter the mat for competing. This assures that said athletes do not go to extreme weight cutting and then "tank" (gaining weight) before their matches thus assuring the athletes will be competing closest to the weight limit of their category. This process will be done on both days! Additionally referees will be spot checking during the competition for anyone that is "tanking", any athlete can be spot checked at any time and required to re-weight, if they are over 2KG above their weight class limit they will be immediately disqualified.

The object of this rule change is to discourage extreme and dangerous weight cutting and to insure that all athletes compete in "their natural weight class" assuring the fairest competition conditions for all.

The ADCC, which is to the uninitiated the highest level of submission fighting in the world, is on the same page with some of what you're saying. They've realized that even six hours is too long though. They weigh you in as soon as you step onto the mat and check your weight during the entire competition.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

I'd be in favor of immediately before the fight weigh ins, but not ones that leave 6 or 12 hours for a weight cutter to try and bulk back up.

Be specific with your rule change, how many hours would you like to see between weigh in and fight?

I'm not wedded to a single answer. Immediately before the fight is better than an hour before is better than two hours before is better than three hours before etc. The shorter the better but I'll take what I can get.

You continue you incorrect starting point that dehydrating is inevitable, It just isn't.

You keep making the debate "weight cutting vs not weight cutting" when I am making it "weight cutting with one day vs weight cutting with two days". Of course not cutting at all is safer. My premise presupposes weight cutting will happen either way, so give them two days to hydrate properly. I don't think you can go back to the way things were when they aren't that way anymore. World doesn't work like that. The ADCC agrees generally with my perspective.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

So, you think fighters are going to stop cutting weight all of a sudden? Unless you weighed in immediately before the fights like in the old days, that just isn't possible, especially now that the weight cutting Pandora's box has been opened. You're just trying to turn back time. I appreciate your passion. But it's time to move forward. You can keep asking for data to prove that day before weigh ins are safer but there is no data either way that can be found in my google adventures that say anything either way.

Your data speaks to deaths, but doesn't have any controls for number of fights, weight of gloves, rules, weigh in practices world wide, etc, so it's not reliable, even a little bit. It just shows that boxing is dangerous no matter what kind of weigh ins you have.

Old days:
Gloves...smaller
Numer of fights...more
Weigh ins...day of
rules...Marquess of Queensberry

Quote :

You continue you incorrect starting point that dehydrating is inevitable, It just isn't.

You really don't think a guy with six or ten hours to drink some water isn't going to try and drop some weight? Especially in light of the weight cutting culture that permeates all combative sports from wrestling to MMA to grappling to boxing to kick boxing?

Oh, I agree gloves should be smaller. The end result would be more knockouts and less brain injury, IMO. rationalize that if you can.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Oh, I agree gloves should be smaller. The end result would be more knockouts and less brain injury, IMO. rationalize that if you can.

The chinless juiceheads in your sport demonstrate that everytime their chin gets touched.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

You keep making the debate "weight cutting vs not weight cutting" when I am making it "weight cutting with one day vs weight cutting with two days". Of course not cutting at all is safer. My premise presupposes weight cutting will happen either way, so give them two days to hydrate properly. I don't think you can go back to the way things were when they aren't that way anymore. World doesn't work like that. The ADCC agrees generally with my perspective.

OK let me get this straight. You think history only moves in a linear way? WOW!

Let me think. I mean football had the shotgun in the 1950's then it dissappeared in the 1960's-1970's. Then in the 1980's here it came again!

How many times has the NBA moved the three point line?

Steroids seem to have left baseball to the degree HR season numbers no long are routinely 50+.

OF COURSE we could return to same day weigh-ins.

BTW your premise is simply largely ahistorical when applied to boxing.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Quote :

You continue you incorrect starting point that dehydrating is inevitable, It just isn't.

You really don't think a guy with six or ten hours to drink some water isn't going to try and drop some weight? Especially in light of the weight cutting culture that permeates all combative sports from wrestling to MMA to grappling to boxing to kick boxing?

Not if it hinders his performance he isn't no. He is trying to win! You are assuming something to be true that based on my reading, research and 35-40 years of watching the sport just wasn't true until the last 15 years or so.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Oh, I agree gloves should be smaller. The end result would be more knockouts and less brain injury, IMO. rationalize that if you can.

I am persuaded smaller gloves are safer. For years everyone fought with 5-6 ounce gloves. Then, gloves were made larger in the name of, wait for it, fighter safety. Like day before weigh-ins, a solution in search of a problem.

Those issues are different. Steroids are gone because of publicity and improved testing. The cycles of football strategy always change. etc.

But if weight cutting is still a possibility, fighters will cut weight. To dispute that disputes human nature. If the opportunity presents itself, fighters will take advantage. Again, the only way this is beneficial if the weigh ins are immediately prior to the fight.

Fighters, trainers, etc have been cutting weight in the sport for 20 years, that just isn't going to vanish if the hydration time is shortened.

This is why, again, the ADCC installed moment of the bout weigh ins. Only way to ensure your premise works.

Bottom line day before weigh ins is a promotional tool used to sell fights with confrontational day before press conferences.

I'm out guys. Thanks!

Quote :

Not if it hinders his performance he isn't no. He is trying to win! You are assuming something to be true that based on my reading, research and 35-40 years of watching the sport just wasn't true until the last 15 years or so.

Ya but there is a lot of people who think weight cutting as it stands now hinders performance. I think for some of these fighters its all mental, they think cutting gives them an advantage when it just drains them.

hardcoreBEE24 wrote:

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Oh, I agree gloves should be smaller. The end result would be more knockouts and less brain injury, IMO. rationalize that if you can.

The chinless juiceheads in your sport demonstrate that everytime their chin gets touched.

LOL I deserved that.

Hillarious thread! Serious pwnage by Marble

Tobe06 wrote:

Hillarious thread! Serious pwnage by Marble

Consider the quality of the competition

Leading up to JMM-Diaz II, Juan Diaz was on radio promoting the fight, he is all for same day weigh ins

Blames it for his losses vs Paulie, says Paulie was 150+ on fight

Where do people stand on the notion of reducing the number of weight classes?

I always felt like fewer divisions would mean guys come in closer to their best possible weight and therefore perform better in the ring. Also it's interesting to see a bit of size discrepancy in a match; adds to the drama to see how the smaller man overcomes that (if he can).

Tobe06 wrote:

Where do people stand on the notion of reducing the number of weight classes?

I always felt like fewer divisions would mean guys come in closer to their best possible weight and therefore perform better in the ring. Also it's interesting to see a bit of size discrepancy in a match; adds to the drama to see how the smaller man overcomes that (if he can).

I'm ok with all the divisions if we have the talent to fill them. Right now we don't. I'd rather see 8-10 deeper and tougher divisions.

Going back to the original 8 classes would be great

Tobe? Who and how did marble pwn anyone? This was typical wolf-soul-reapage. All anyone did was post the stupidest comparison known to human beings, and stats that offer no scientific data at all. His premise is weight cutting sucks, if that is his premise, ban weight cutting, not shorten the hydration window. He, you, and anyone else who believes people will magically stop cutting weight with a shorter hydration window are completely delusional.

Wolfgangsta wrote:

Tobe? Who and how did marble pwn anyone? This was typical wolf-soul-reapage. All anyone did was post the stupidest comparison known to human beings, and stats that offer no scientific data at all. His premise is weight cutting sucks, if that is his premise, ban weight cutting, not shorten the hydration window. He, you, and anyone else who believes people will magically stop cutting weight with a shorter hydration window are completely delusional.

Your faux knowledge and delusion knows no bounds. You are as I previously stated a complete blowhard with zero knowledge of a sport that operated a specific way for the majority of its existence. Recent know it alls sort of like yourself decided that they knew better than everyone else and ammended the rules to conform to their own agendas. Narcissistic behavior like the behavior you exhibit is part of the reason boxing is in the place its in.

Unbelievably, I agree with Wolf. I think weight cutting has become ingrained in the sport. Guys use it as a competitive advantage and will likely continue to try to do so if the rule changes (even though the rule needs to change).

Especially in the transitional phase, this could be dangerous. The difference between weight issues in boxing and the "steroids era" in baseball is that while the new rules are being established, people will be getting hurt instead of hitting fewer home runs.

I personally think the responsibility should be on the fighters and if they are willing to go into the ring drained then that's on them. But I also think there would be enough guys willing to drain themselves to try and be top fighters in a division they aren't built for instead of being mediocre in the division they are meant for.

And one fight that goes wrong can call everything into question. I think they'll have to ease into it somehow. Maybe starting with a max re-hydration weight and slowly phasing it out over a few years.